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Shanghai Expat Forum Index » Hot Topics Forums » Visas, Taxes, and Legalities

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underh20
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Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 12702
Location: Veggie-Free Zone

Posted: Feb 26, 2009 - 07:41 AM

melloyello wrote:

I'm a BBC (BritishBornChinese), with HKSAR PR due to working and living in HK for 7 yrs & a China Permit allowing me to live & work in China without a visa.

Here's the crunch, my wife is a former China national from Shanghai, now has UK citizenship and lives & works in SHA using a work visa. I have no restrictions, but my Shanghai born wife now UK citizen needs to get a visa to stay in the country. That also relates to my UK born daughter, who attends kindergarten here for the last 4yrs.

What if any, can I do to have my family stay in SHA without the need of red tape?????? Any ideas?

I'm not sure, but perhaps they can also get PR in Hong Kong like you.

As for what can be done on the Chinese side, I'm afraid from what you've described that Chinese permanent residence is out of the question. Your wife can always renounce her British citizenship and get her Chinese citizenship back, but that may not be an attractive option for you.

If you are working, perhaps you can use your work permit (even people from Hong Kong are supposed to have a work permit issued by the labor bureau) and obtain a 1-year residence permit for both your wife and your daughter.

There is also a 1-year "L" visa for spouses of PRC nationals and Chinese permanent residents. Perhaps the PSB would consider issuing that to your wife and child.

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melloyello

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Joined: Feb 25, 2009
Posts: 75
Location: XuJiaHui
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Posted: Feb 26, 2009 - 10:30 PM

underh20 wrote:

melloyello wrote:

Thanks underh20, as complex is the criteria in this country to do almost everything, it's the thrill of trying to find the missing link that nobody has yet found. I will further seek advice on this coupled with what you have provided.

Cheers! Smile

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Misteral

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Joined: July 24, 2008
Posts: 459

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Posted: Feb 27, 2009 - 01:33 AM

Mello, your family aliens (in the nicest sense) and as such will be treated so. It is difficult for aliens to get permanent residence. If your wife applies to get her Chinese nationality back then you'll have the issue of your child's nationality. Where was she born? Anyway, if she kept her UK nationality it would likely be no problem renewing her residency but she'd probably have to do it anyway. Maybe I'm talking b***ocks but at first glance forget it.

melloyello

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Joined: Feb 25, 2009
Posts: 75
Location: XuJiaHui
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Posted: Mar 01, 2009 - 12:13 AM

Not to worry, I've had so much grief with this issue, actually there doesn't really seem to be an ideal solution, so it's really a no win issue here after all. Thanks for the input Misteral, I'm sure by some divine intervention in some 20yrs time, somebody in Central Govt. will have thought of another way to really make some more cash off the foreigners, that's if brown envelopes ala tea/coffee money still exist then. Cheers!

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Zak101

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Joined: Jan 20, 2003
Posts: 1410
Location: 苏州 Suzhou
Status: Offline

Posted: Mar 01, 2009 - 04:20 AM

Mrs Zak just bought a brand new apartment, but it's only in her name with a 30 year mortgage. I get the privelige of paying most of the mortgage of course, but I don't mind, it's only 2 K RMB a month.

I and the parents in law will move in to share. Not listed as a co-mortgagee is is small issue, but does not add currency to any application for PR.

Forget it.

I'm clinging to staying in China with my wife, coupled with a very oily grasp on the narrow rope over the boiling volcanic mud pit of deportation.

Gees, they make it hard for legit Laowais. But - they have their rules and I hope these rules get modulated quick smart.

But then I fly box kites in the park to the astonishment of local Chinese and I like to dream.

Dream of 98% less BS to stay here.

I know...In your dreams Z. No need to attack. I know.

Z.

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9Benua

Newbie

Joined: Mar 26, 2009
Posts: 2

Status: Offline

Posted: Mar 26, 2009 - 08:05 AM

Hi guys, I just want to ask, with China Permanent residence, can you open a business (fast food joint, retail, etc) ? or WFOE still the only way to do it?

underh20
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Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 12702
Location: Veggie-Free Zone

Posted: Mar 26, 2009 - 02:14 PM

9Benua wrote:

Hi guys, I just want to ask, with China Permanent residence, can you open a business (fast food joint, retail, etc) ? or WFOE still the only way to do it?

If you have permanent residence you are -- in theory -- equivalent to a Chinese national in every aspect but the following:

1. You cannot vote;
2. You cannot be elected to office; and
3. You cannot perform military service.

That is not to say that you won't have to argue with the commercial license people about it. Many times they will still try to treat you like a foreigner even though they are not supposed to.

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shanghai_flava
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Joined: July 19, 2008
Posts: 558
Location: Century Park

Posted: Mar 29, 2009 - 07:47 PM

underh20, nice post indeed.
I know you don't work with the PSB but are the chances of qualifying for Permanent Residence if a foreigner is holding the followings:
- Lived in China for 5 years.
- Married to a Chinese national for 5 years.
- Have an open-ended work contract.
- Own a house with wife.
Will that person applying still get his application rejected like in the vast majority of cases you mentioned in earlier posts?

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underh20
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Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 12702
Location: Veggie-Free Zone

Posted: Mar 29, 2009 - 07:58 PM

shanghai_flava wrote:

If during those 5 years living in China you have not been out of the country for more than, if not mistaken, 90 days per year and the 5 years have run after you have been married and continue up until the moment you apply for permanent residence, you have a shot.

The municipal PSB will conduct a background investigation no matter under which criteria you have applied for permanent residence. In my case, they went to every family on each of 36 floors in all four buildings of my compound. I was worried because in the previous few months I had smacked the shit out of a taxi driver and also the upstairs neighbor for drilling at 3:00 a.m.

In the end, the only questions the police will ask are:

1. Has he made negative statements about the Party;
2. Has be made negative statements about the government;
3. Does he support Taiwan independence;
4. Does he support the Dickhead Lama.

After the municipal police conduct this investigation, the provincial police will repeat it.

You'll also have to provide an accounting for all your activities during your entire stay in China. Keep in mind that stating that you have worked when at the time they verify you hadn't a work visa will only mean you'll get FITA.

If you've made it this far and have been very anal retentive with your documentation, you might make it. I'd say the odds would be something like 75-25 in favor.

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AYSYN

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Joined: Nov 29, 2006
Posts: 42

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Posted: Apr 12, 2009 - 10:18 AM

I've been thinking about this permanent resident thing for a long time now and since my company is going to renew my contract for another 5 years, it might be good to obtain it.

I am from the US and have been in Shanghai for 8 years and married to a Chinese girl for 8 years. We have three kids. What are my chances of getting the green card?

underh20
Board Legend

Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 12702
Location: Veggie-Free Zone

Posted: Apr 12, 2009 - 08:06 PM

AYSYN wrote:

I'm pretty sure -- without actually going to look up the regulations -- that the applicable requirements are:

1. Married for five years to the same Chinese citizen / permanent resident;

2. Subsequent to getting married and immediately prior to applying for permanent residence you must have been living in China at least five years with absences in any one year not totalling more than 90 days;

3. Stable residence;

4. Stable income;

5. Pass a thorough PSB conducted background investigation;

6. Produce evidence of having no criminal record in your country of nationality, country of birth and every other country that you have lived in for over 6 months.

7. Pass a medical examination.

Generally even before the PSB will give you the application for permanent residency they will grill you on requirements #1, 2 & 4. If they believe you are minimally qualified, they will give you the application. Having children is not a factor and will not help (or hinder) you.

Since #1 and 2 are pretty much self-explanatory, I will not comment on them.

The key in #3 & 4 is "stable." If you ask the PSB what stable means, they will tell you that stable means, well ... stable. When pressed further, they will still insist that stable means ... stable and that you should just tell the truth and take your best shot.

In fact, stable is something that they determine from the preponderance of the evidence you submitt with your application. If you own your own home, that is a stable residence. If you do not own your own home, you'll need actual evidence that you have lived at your present residence for several years and currently have a long-term lease. You will need to prove how long you have lived in your current residence by producing actual tax receipts for all the rent you have paid.

Stable income means you have actual long-term employment in China. While your typical one-year contracts are probably not going to qualify you, you have mentioned yours is a five-year contract. That should be fine. Of course, if you have the typical life-tenure Chinese contract that would be better, but in any event 5 is fine.

It is also wise to document any savings, investments and other financial assets you own. The key is to show them you are not a deadbeat.

Requirement #5 isn't as easy as you'd think. First they will ask you to write a personal history statement and itemize all the salient features of your presence in China. It's crucial that you tell the truth and even more crucial that your facts support each other. For example, if from 2001 - 2002 you were not on a work-based residence permit yet you still earned income in China, expect to wait about a year and ultimately get rejected. The PSB does have access to your tax records, credit file and your banking particulars and they will check.

The municipal PSB will visit your employer(s), the vast majority of all the people who live in your apartment building, you're spouse's employer(s), her family & friends and anybody in your neighborhood (i.e. building security and maintenance workers) they think have knowledge of you. This process will take at least 3 months and when the minicipal PSB is finished, the provincial PSB will repeat the whole process again for another minimum period of 3 months.

At least for US citizens, requirement #6 is very, very, very tricky. The documents must certify a national records check and be notarized by the issuing agency. You then further authenticate the document with the state Secretary of State and, ultimately, the Chinese consulate that has jurisdiction over your state.

Requirement #7 is your basic medical examination that you get when you are applying for your "Z" visa.

After you have submitted all your documentation and been interviewed by the investigator assigned to your case, you just sit back and wait. You'll know when the police are conducting the background investigation when you see everybody who lives in your building all of a sudden not willing to be seen within 20 meters of you and they all talk amongst themselves and point & stare at you.

Supposedly the whole process takes 6 months, but so far the fastest has been 11 and 1/2 months. You'll ultimately get either a phone call from the PSB telling you to come and pick up your new ID card or a rejection letter in the mail. I'm hoping you don't get the letter.

Feel free to PM me if you have further concerns.

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refusion

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Joined: June 21, 2006
Posts: 25
Location: Shanghai
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Posted: June 23, 2009 - 11:31 AM
Post subject: Applying for Green Card

underh20 wrote:

homeagain wrote:

underh20 wrote:

The new law on permanent residence replaces the old system of resettlement certificates, honorary citizenship and the old version of the D visa which was seldom used anyhow and even then often without rhyme or reason.

The five main categories are:
...
4. Spouses of Chinese nationals or Chinese permanent residents who meet certain criteria; and
...

Can anybody explain in detail what are thoes certain criteria?

1. Married for 5 years.
2. Living in China continuously for 5 years subsequent to marriage and up to and including the time you apply for permanent residency. You must be absent from China no more than 90 days each year.
3. You must have a "stable" residence. This means you must have an open-ended, indeterminate (not 1-year or time limited) lease and have lived there for a long time. You will need to produce the fa paios as proof. Otherwise, you need to own the property.
4. "Stable" employment. By "stable" you need an open-ended, indeterminate labor contract with sufficient salary to show you can live.
5. Proof of no criminal record from your home country and any other country you have lived in.
6. Pass a background investigation by the municipal and provincial PSB.
7. A lot of luck because most are refused anyhow.

Rented flats no longer count according the recent policy changes. You must now own a flat. No exceptions. You need to own a flat in your name or jointly with your legal Chinese wife and have around RMB50,000 to RMB 100,000 saved to a one-year time deposit (in your name only) in the bank to safely qualify. I talked to an immigration lawyer in Beijing about this recently.

It might be worth mentioning at this point that Western behaviour and Chinese expectations of Westerners don't usually match up. If the government is going to do a proper character reference check during the applications process, then (and I hate say it) most Westerners are screwed without even realizing it.

Stability and fitting in with the locals is key here. I've been renting the same apartment with my Chinese wife for over 5 years and have had nary a problem with the neighbors or the managment company. Our landlord is very nice and we are good terms with him, as well. We pretty much keep to ourselves and very few, if any, people except for our relatives ever come to our house. The neighbors see that we are always working or taking our kid out to do her school-related activities or we are out doing family activities.

The following is my take on the situation about why you would be denied based on a character referrence check and I could be wrong:

If you're the sort of Westerner who has lots of trouble dealing with your landlords, moves around a lot and basically does stuff which annoys your neighbors (constant parties, lots of people coming and going, out-call massages to your flat, constant stream of different girlfriends/boyfriends, excessive smoking and drinking, suspected drug use, fighting/arguing with the neighbors or just generally being rude, poor hygiene, dress and look like crap, etc...) or have been spied around the area doing stuff the locals don't like (public drunkeness,seen with a woman other than your spouse or known relative, going to Mah-Jong parlors, etc...), then this will be reflected in the investigation.

Perhaps the most important thing they will likely be looking for are potential domestic troubles or a fraudulent marriage. If you argue/fight with your wife or the in-laws or do anything which could constitute spousal or child abuse, the neighbors would be more forthcoming about this than your family would.

If the neighbors have any reason to suspect or believe that you're kind of person who likes yell at or smack your wife around after a few drinks or your kids act scared of you because you yell at them or spank them all the time, you'll definitely get a bad character reference and it may trigger an investigation by the police.

Sadly, the neighbors can make stuff up or simply say that they don't like you or don't trust you and that could be enough to end your application.

The number of times you've had run-ins with the police and the reason will also be looked at. Best that you have no incidents on file (whether you are the accuser or the accusee) with the police wherever you've lived.

Also, any problems with over-staying the visa or failing to register with your local police station will also weigh heavily against you.

You can meet all the requirement financially and still not make it due to a poor character reference. Once poor character referrences have been noted with your Green Card application, you might as well hang it up because it will guarantee you will be forever denied.

Also, I think you'd better be sure you don't have any skeletons in the closet. When PSB launches their character reference invesigation, I imagine you could find yourself in trouble for stuff that you weren't aware of or stuff you thought would never be discovered. Just because your neighbors or the police don't say anything to you, doesn't mean they haven't been keeping tabs on you.

overh20

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Joined: June 23, 2009
Posts: 124

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Posted: June 23, 2009 - 07:14 PM
Post subject: Re: Applying for Green Card

Interesting analysis. Unfortunately most of your claims are simply not true.

refusion wrote:

First of all, the process is highly centralized and tightly controlled by the Ministry of Public Security in such a way that local and provincial public security organs have no say whatsoever in the matter. Their role is limited to following step-by-step instructions as issued by the Ministry and reporting the results directly to the Ministry for any decision. Immigration lawyers have no place in the process and, unless they have actually gone through the process themselves, would not even much, if anything about it.

Second, there have been no policy changes. There have been no changes to the underlying immigration laws as pertaining to permanent residency, to the implementation regulations nor to the internal regulations on the approval process.

That out of the way, if is absolutely false that housing rental excludes one from the possibility of obtaining permanent residency. Not only can that be verified by a quick call to the Public Security Ministry, but the claim is even absurd on its face since it would prevent anybody not on a work visa or a student visa from obtaining permanent residency since only those expats with residence permits can purchase property. Thus it would eliminate a whole category of otherwise elegible individuals -- retirees -- from applying.

refusion wrote:

It might be worth mentioning at this point that Western behaviour and Chinese expectations of Westerners don't usually match up. If the government is going to do a proper character reference check during the applications process, then (and I hate say it) most Westerners are screwed without even realizing it.

Stability and fitting in with the locals is key here. I've been renting the same apartment with my Chinese wife for over 5 years and have had nary a problem with the neighbors or the managment company. Our landlord is very nice and we are good terms with him, as well. We pretty much keep to ourselves and very few, if any, people except for our relatives ever come to our house. The neighbors see that we are always working or taking our kid out to do her school-related activities or we are out doing family activities.

Also false. Fitting in with the locals, as nice as it seems, is not a requirement.

refusion wrote:

The following is my take on the situation about why you would be denied based on a character referrence check and I could be wrong:

If you're the sort of Westerner who has lots of trouble dealing with your landlords, moves around a lot and basically does stuff which annoys your neighbors (constant parties, lots of people coming and going, out-call massages to your flat, constant stream of different girlfriends/boyfriends, excessive smoking and drinking, suspected drug use, fighting/arguing with the neighbors or just generally being rude, poor hygiene, dress and look like crap, etc...) or have been spied around the area doing stuff the locals don't like (public drunkeness,seen with a woman other than your spouse or known relative, going to Mah-Jong parlors, etc...), then this will be reflected in the investigation.

Perhaps the most important thing they will likely be looking for are potential domestic troubles or a fraudulent marriage. If you argue/fight with your wife or the in-laws or do anything which could constitute spousal or child abuse, the neighbors would be more forthcoming about this than your family would.

If the neighbors have any reason to suspect or believe that you're kind of person who likes yell at or smack your wife around after a few drinks or your kids act scared of you because you yell at them or spank them all the time, you'll definitely get a bad character reference and it may trigger an investigation by the police.

Sadly, the neighbors can make stuff up or simply say that they don't like you or don't trust you and that could be enough to end your application.

The number of times you've had run-ins with the police and the reason will also be looked at. Best that you have no incidents on file (whether you are the accuser or the accusee) with the police wherever you've lived.

Also, any problems with over-staying the visa or failing to register with your local police station will also weigh heavily against you.

You can meet all the requirement financially and still not make it due to a poor character reference. Once poor character referrences have been noted with your Green Card application, you might as well hang it up because it will guarantee you will be forever denied.

Also, I think you'd better be sure you don't have any skeletons in the closet. When PSB launches their character reference invesigation, I imagine you could find yourself in trouble for stuff that you weren't aware of or stuff you thought would never be discovered. Just because your neighbors or the police don't say anything to you, doesn't mean they haven't been keeping tabs on you.

Not only could you be wrong, but you are wrong.

The background investigation is 99% politically motivated. Of course convictions for criminal offenses will probably result in denial or permanent residency, but then if one had been convicted of an offense in China chances are they would not currently be in China.

Virtually all questions asked by the PSB involve the target's views, actions and statements about Taiwan, t¡bet and related political ideaology.

It is not true that having oversated a visa or failed to register with the local police station will ruin ones chances of being approved. In order to even begin the application process you have to submit proof of registration. If in the past one has overstayed or forgotten to register, that is not an automatic deal breaker.

What would be problematic is having worked while on a non-working visa or otherwise violated the terms of your visa (other than having overstayed).