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realtrueblue

Reacher

Joined: Oct 19, 2006
Posts: 206

Status: Offline

Posted: June 28, 2009 - 11:09 PM
Post subject: Cynism in China

I noticed that I am getting terribly cynical in my relationships with Chinese people. It's getting worser every day.
I'm living three years in Shanghai now, but my first business contacts with China date back from almost 20 years ago. I have been to more than 35 countries all over the globe. Before I moved to China, I lived in several European countries and the US.
I am with Mark Twain when he said: "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness." But here in China, I hae great difficulties to understand the behaviour of certain people

Yesterday my neighbour closed the door of the elevator in front of me, well knowing I was rushing to get in it. Last week on the wet market, once more they tried to let me pay 20 RMB/pound for tomatoes. Countless times, in shops, they tell me "mei you" and after some searching I discover they nevertheless have that product.
The every day pushing and jabbing on the sidewalk, the "让一下", the queue breaking, the selfishness, the artificial smiling, the lack of straightforwardness or simple politeness.
At least as often I get incensed because of their indescribable crudeness (not to me but) to each other. People from the South can't stand people from the North, city people look down on people from countryside, they have hundreds of reasons for not respecting other people,...

Last time, I noticed that I am gradually taking over their bad habbits. Sometimes, on purpose, I bump on people or I refuse to give way on a crowded sidewalk. Or I walk extra slow over the zebra crossing when I see a taxi trying to break in the pedestrians. Or I try to cheat them in the fruit shop by eating as much samples as I can.

Very often, the first victim of my cynism is my (Chinese) girlfriend. Almost every day, she has to try to explain to me why some people here behave in such a rude and ignorant way. I know, it's not her fault, but she is listening so patiently to my complains... "What happened, to my polite, kind, civilised boyfriend" she asks me. I don't want her to be the victim of my cynism.

And NO, I certainly don't want to move back. I am looking for a solution, a cure, a way to remain healthy in this unhealty environment. People living here for 10 or 15 years certainly know how to overcome this issue.

Andreas
Shanghai Royalty

Joined: Feb 27, 2004
Posts: 9140
Location: s/v Waratah

Posted: June 28, 2009 - 11:14 PM

Lower your expectation level. It helps a lot, and your days will be happier.

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vincentdjen

Newbie

Joined: June 24, 2009
Posts: 5

Status: Offline

Posted: June 28, 2009 - 11:17 PM

Just be like one of them..... I think is just too many people in this city and many of them are not raised or educated on these things.

Rumpelstiltskin

PopStar

Joined: May 13, 2009
Posts: 1293

Status: Offline

Posted: June 28, 2009 - 11:20 PM

It's getting better every year..

auganov

Squeeker

Joined: Apr 09, 2009
Posts: 16

Status: Offline

Posted: June 28, 2009 - 11:34 PM

Why do you seek help here? Looks like you know your problem and solution is only one - don't do it.
Though I see nothing wrong in your behavior and I don't know why you should be mr. Nice to everyone, no need to be that kind of person.

SoFarSoGood

Reacher

Joined: Mar 10, 2006
Posts: 272

Status: Offline

Posted: June 28, 2009 - 11:34 PM

eventually it will get better the more you live here, but also be ready for some setbacks.
a friend of mine who lives in china for 15 years has a motto "Don't ask why".

vincentdjen

Newbie

Joined: June 24, 2009
Posts: 5

Status: Offline

Posted: June 28, 2009 - 11:40 PM

seriously...you can't ask why.

Marakanis
Fire-eater

Joined: Jan 11, 2009
Posts: 2944

Posted: June 28, 2009 - 11:54 PM

Recently I tried to get out of the way of a bicycle driving on the sidewalk and nearly got taken out by a moped coming at me from behind...

Sometimes you just can't win, but don't let it get you down.

You see, for Westerners there is a right and a wrong. Some things are black and white issues. In China, they don't have these. Everything is malleable. Everything can go either way (well, almost everything).

It's not an issue of Chinese having questionable morals, morals are defined by individuals, laws and religion. The real issue is that you are living in a culture where the things that you think are defined as right and wrong are not agreed upon by the people you are living with. As an example.

In America if you see a man hitting a child in a store really hard on the ass, most people will come down very hard on one side or the other of the issue. Either that was totally wrong and you should never hit a child, or it's good to beat your kids because it's the only way to truly discipline a child. In fact, in America in particular there are some people who would walk straight up to the dad and start shouting at him, or call Child Protective Services.

A Chinese person would probably look at that same situation and say, well, maybe the kid did something really bad, or maybe the father was having a really bad day, he's not hitting him anymore so the situation is resolved. It's just a different way of seeing the same subject matter... You might not agree with it, but that's the culture you've chosen to live in (for now).

Just remember, it's not about right or wrong, it's about being somewhere in the middle where everyone is kind of okay.

You don't want to pay 20RMB a pound for tomatoes, so keep an eye on the prices. You don't want to get upset about people screaming at each other, so put on some headphones. You don't want to be rude to others, so make an effort to remember that they don't see it as being rude to you, they're just trying to reach their goal...

Does this help?

Klick

Ranter

Joined: Jan 04, 2009
Posts: 502
Location: pupudongadong
Status: Offline

Posted: June 28, 2009 - 11:57 PM

OK here is something, not 100% relevant, but might be one step along the road. I arrived here in SH with my daughter two months ago to the day. I have been reading on this forum for a bit before moving, so I knew to expect some 'rude' (by my western standards, natch) behavior. And certainly, I have seen some examples. Frankly I will never, ever understand how people do not get the "let the people out, before you get in" concept at lifts and trains. But here's the thing: we don't have a driver, so we get around town mainly by the metro, using it pretty much every day. In two months there has not been one single time when, stepping in with my little girl (just turned 3), someone has not gotten up and offered us a seat. Not once. Someone always stands up and motions for us to sit. Every time.

So, it's a small thing, but let that be a little point of light in your darkness.

monalisalee

Veejay

Joined: May 10, 2005
Posts: 2019
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline

Posted: June 29, 2009 - 12:28 AM

Well yeah, its all about ignoring the bad, (in your mind), and accepting the good.

You have been to 35 other countries. Good for you! Congrats.

Why quote that? Are you special?, because of?

That means nothing when you come here.

The good thing about China. It is unique. appreciate that.

Love her, and she will love you.
Hate her, and she will hate you.

Simple.

I love it here.

John

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johnboy88

prego2000

Barker

Joined: Feb 27, 2008
Posts: 138

Status: Offline

Posted: June 29, 2009 - 12:30 AM

Quote:

OK here is something, not 100% relevant, but might be one step along the road.

I think that is very relevant in dealing with "it." I've had many days with really bad starts that get totally reversed just by someone's polite reciprocity. Even a ni-hao and a quick smile on the elevator can go a long way. Back home, I couldn't give a damn for people's attitudes, good or bad. The less said, the better. But here, the situation is so bizarre and off-putting that just a little twinge of "see, we're happy humans too!" can fill the hole, if only temporarily.

Marakanis
Fire-eater

Joined: Jan 11, 2009
Posts: 2944

Posted: June 29, 2009 - 12:31 AM

Love it or leave it? Really? That's your advice?

I love how when people are preaching, they always sign their name at the bottom. =P

auganov

Squeeker

Joined: Apr 09, 2009
Posts: 16

Status: Offline

Posted: June 29, 2009 - 12:44 AM

Marakanis wrote:

In America if you see a man hitting a child in a store really hard on the ass, most people will come down very hard on one side or the other of the issue. Either that was totally wrong and you should never hit a child, or it's good to beat your kids because it's the only way to truly discipline a child. In fact, in America in particular there are some people who would walk straight up to the dad and start shouting at him, or call Child Protective Services.

A Chinese person would probably look at that same situation and say, well, maybe the kid did something really bad, or maybe the father was having a really bad day, he's not hitting him anymore so the situation is resolved. It's just a different way of seeing the same subject matter... You might not agree with it, but that's the culture you've chosen to live in (for now).

Well in that post you actually portrayed how America is crazy compared to China Smile

phiota

Rocker

Joined: Nov 01, 2005
Posts: 680

Status: Offline

Posted: June 29, 2009 - 12:45 AM
Post subject: Re: Cynism in China

realtrueblue wrote:

Try living in Mexico/Indonesia/India (similar economic level)...and see how it compares to China (china at least much much better infrastructure). Your trying to compare the Walmart (US one's not China's) standard-experience to the Macy's of the world. If you want the higher level of service/courtesy/price go to IKEA/Wal-Mart/Metro or those 5 star resorts in Sanya.

If China economic keep improving then in 10-20-50 years you will probably see a much different China then now but also much more expensive (like rent/services...) then now.

Last edited by phiota on June 29, 2009 - 01:09 AM; edited 1 time in total

leidelaohu

Board Lord

Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 5751

Status: Offline

Posted: June 29, 2009 - 12:54 AM
Post subject: Re: Cynism in China

realtrueblue wrote:

And NO, I certainly don't want to move back. I am looking for a solution, a cure, a way to remain healthy in this unhealty environment. People living here for 10 or 15 years certainly know how to overcome this issue.

Unless you are a Gandhi or a Martin Luther King, I think you're screwed. You grew up with standards. The people in Shanghai did not. The only way you can become truly comfortable is to become like them. That option is probably not attractive to you Smile

A lot of people have a plan to leave. Not having an indeterminate sentence hanging over you helps. Knowing that "in two more years I am moving to a place where people do not behave like starving pigs" helps to keep the ol' sense of humor alive. If I knew I was never leaving China I'd probably go to sleep tonight and not wake up.

LifeMage
Post Roaster

Joined: Sep 30, 2005
Posts: 4435
Location: In the world...... but not of it.

Posted: June 29, 2009 - 01:42 AM

^Who knows if you WILL wake up tomorrow (whether you like China or not)?

Makes me think of Castaneda's, "Don Juan":

"Death is our eternal companion. It is always to our left, at an arm's length."

"The thing to do when you're impatient," he proceeded, "is to turn to your left and ask advice from death. An immense amount of pettiness is dropped if death makes a gesture to you, or if you catch a glimpse of it, or if you just have the feeling that your companion is there watching you."

I realize it's not an easy thing to contemplate but when we understand that death could come for any of us, at any moment, we start to live life to it's fullest. We start to put 'things' into perspective.

My advice: Don't take things for granted, do what you can to help, try to experience more and judge less, embrace the magical, mysterious adventure right now (regardless of location)....because...as my mom likes to say, "tomorrow is promised to no one."

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GaryA

Talker

Joined: Jan 19, 2009
Posts: 89

Status: Offline

Posted: June 29, 2009 - 08:03 AM

Maybe it depends on how long you've been here. When I first arrived a few years ago I couldn't believe how rude some people were. It really bugged me. Then as I stayed here for awhile it seemed like I just got used to it. Now that I've been here for awhile, it's starting to get to me again.

In my mind I just do what I think is the right thing and hope that in some small way it rubs off on the masses and eventually changes things. Even if that's naive thinking, it still keeps me on my toes and allows me to not become one of them.

I have a dog and when I first moved into my new apartment, nobody was cleaning up after their dog. There was sh*t everywhere you walked. I always took a plastic bag with me and cleaned up after mine. After 3 or 4 months I noticed that all the dog owners carry a bag now and clean up after their dogs.

Recently they started closing the main doors to our building and require the use of a card to get in (or push of a button to get out). At first it seemed like it was a race for anybody to quickly get in before anybody else could "piggyback" with you. If I saw somebody coming, I would wait a moment and hold the door so they could get in. It seems to be catching on and a lot of people are politely anticipating someone who needs to get in (especially with an armload of stuff).

Now, don't get me wrong, I still feel like choking out the guy who shoves his way in front of me to get on the subway or the woman who sees I'm in the middle of a transaction at the bank and still seems to divert the attention of the teller after I waited for 40 minutes for my turn. But I try to stay above the fray.

There are many good people here and not everything they do is bad. It's just that "one" incident that seems to bring it to your attention the most. Who knows if it will ever change here, but at least maybe you can keep your sanity. My mom used to tell me to "kill 'em with kindness". She was better at it that I am, but I hear those words ringing in my ears every day.

gogorita

Lurker

Joined: Sep 25, 2005
Posts: 22

Status: Offline

Posted: June 29, 2009 - 08:44 AM

LifeMage wrote:

Great quote. Your advice, imo, is priceless. My Mother used to say the same thing.

zillahh

Barker

Joined: Jan 01, 2008
Posts: 197

Status: Offline

Posted: June 29, 2009 - 10:03 AM

Marakanis wrote:

Love it or leave it? Really? That's your advice?

I love how when people are preaching, they always sign their name at the bottom. =P

So that would mean your name is Equals Pee?

Marakanis
Fire-eater

Joined: Jan 11, 2009
Posts: 2944

Posted: June 29, 2009 - 10:22 AM

zillahh wrote:

Marakanis wrote:

Love it or leave it? Really? That's your advice?

I love how when people are preaching, they always sign their name at the bottom. =P

So that would mean your name is Equals Pee?

I wasn't preaching, I was bitching...

compsolutions

Rocker

Joined: Mar 07, 2009
Posts: 692
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline

Posted: June 29, 2009 - 10:51 AM

@realtrueblue.

The answer is go on vacation.
You're stressed out, and need a change.

When I first got here, I found I needed to get out every 6 months. After a few years, that turned into every year, now I don't need to get out.

Seriously, take a break, go on a 2 week vacation, get revitalized, and come back with new energy.

Thats the secret.

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jasonnoguchi

LoopKicker

Joined: Mar 05, 2005
Posts: 905
Location: From Singapore
Status: Offline

Posted: June 29, 2009 - 11:01 AM

seriously, I suffer from the same thing and my chinese wife needs to counsel me like every other day. I actually experience the same thing in southern India as well. Well, maybe we are all different and that difference can be very wide indeed. Simple manners in our own culture may be stupidity in other culture. Can't help it.

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BONNIE
Fire-eater

Joined: June 17, 2005
Posts: 2535
Location: Amsterdam/Shanghai

Posted: June 29, 2009 - 11:17 AM

GaryA says it all, if you act with decency then some people will actually follow your example. Drop your expectations, sure, but you don't need to drop your own personal standards

All the things that bother us here have always been a part of life here, and will still be here long after we have all gone. For me it's important the impression of myself that I leave behind, not the memory of the things I didn't like about China.

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Cambronne

Wonder Wit

Joined: Feb 23, 2008
Posts: 3552

Status: Offline

Posted: June 29, 2009 - 11:23 AM

Even the Chinese Communist Party has given up trying to improve the local culture... Why should we try? Totally understand your story though, probably you should take it easy, maybe take a break or travel to a country that may be worse in some other respects (your home country perhaps - everytime I travel back I realize China isnt so bad).

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flysurfing

Reacher

Joined: Sep 11, 2006
Posts: 264

Status: Offline

Posted: June 29, 2009 - 11:26 AM

Realtrueblue, indeed what you are describing is the result of the mix of a lot of differents people in a very competitive environment. Rudeness is maybe the only way to survive for them...

I was astonished my first three months in Shanghai to see that SH people were so rude with cashier in the shop for example.

Back in the usa, europe and even Brazil, i used to say hi to them, ask them how are they and so on and try to talk a bit... I mean exchange and discussion is a basic things and make life easier and more bearable.

But here in China, cashier, ayi ... are really not respected at all by most of the SH people.
In my company most of people even never say Nihao to the ayi... She is a normal human being making our life easier, so why not threat them as normal people and use the normal politeness...

Concerning the country side, you have a lot of books about it from a very famous Chinese writer, now living in the USA. He is talking about how cruel could be the people, and how fast they could take part for the rich and powerful in case of a problem in their town...

Would you have any clear explanation of this rudeness ?

Cheers