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CardCupGlue
Lurker
Joined: Nov 04, 2009
Posts: 35
Status: Offline
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 Posted:
Nov 04, 2009 - 11:41 AM |
 
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| Post subject: Legally overpaid? |
So I have been working in Shanghai for a couple years with my paychecks still coming from the US company to my US bank.
Recently I signed an employment contract with the Shanghai branch of my company, everyone with the understanding that part of my salary would come from the US and part in Shanghai.
Well, the US branch never changed my salary, so I have been receiving both salaries in full. Now the Accounting guys are sniffing around and have asked what happened.
My question is am I obliged to pay the money back that I was "overpaid", even though I have two separate employment contracts? The way I look at it is that it's the responsibility of my company to amend one contract due to the other - so I have been paid exactly according to the two contracts I have. However, I know the company will see it as I having been overpaid.
Thanks. |
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teezy123
Barker
Joined: Mar 21, 2008
Posts: 197
Status: Offline
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Nov 04, 2009 - 11:51 AM |
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unbelievable how often this seems to happen.
not sure what you legally must do. guess it comes down to your ethics and how it affects your relationship with you company. |
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CardCupGlue
Lurker
Joined: Nov 04, 2009
Posts: 35
Status: Offline
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Nov 04, 2009 - 12:00 PM |
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For sure I don't want to give the money back! Are there other threads in this forum about this issue? ....would be nice to see how others handled this situation. |
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Misteral
Ranter
Joined: July 24, 2008
Posts: 585
Status: Offline
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Nov 04, 2009 - 12:01 PM |
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You know yourself that you were not entitled to the extra money whether you have the
'legal' documents to back up a case or not. If you want a fight with the organisation, refuse to pay it back. If you do they will likely withhold the overpayment from your next due salary, even if it is more than that, and you will get involved in a legal dispute if you want to recover the withheld payment. As the above poster mentions it really all depends if you want to continue your relationship with the company or not. If not, there is still no guarantee you will be successful in your dispute. Pay the money back, you were not entitled to it and you know it. There is an old legal maxim "He who seeks equity (fairness) must come with clean hands". Your company made a mistake, you on the other hand were a bit sneaky, hoping nobody would notice the error (not that I completely blame you but the cat's out of the bag now). Ask yourself, who is the bad guy here? When the issue is put to you directly just plead ignorance, get a figure from them and pay it back with a smile on your face. |
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CardCupGlue
Lurker
Joined: Nov 04, 2009
Posts: 35
Status: Offline
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Nov 04, 2009 - 12:11 PM |
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Mistreal -
I agree that I am not necessarily entitled to the "extra money". but is this not more like an increase in salary because I am being paid exactly as my contracts state? I am not sure how one can say this is extra money if the amount paid is not exceeding the agreement.
I do plan to bring the issue forward and get it resolved.....and I will HOPE that the company does not try to recoup money from the past. |
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hayansekki724
Lurker
Joined: Nov 09, 2008
Posts: 23
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Nov 04, 2009 - 12:17 PM |
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Wow, you've been living in China too long...
I was overpaid by a Chinese company once. I told them and eventually they figured out an account and asked me to send them less money than I owed them, saying a Chinese employee definitely wouldn't have said anything.
You can try to fight with them if you're feeling crooked, but will it be worth losing those years of work experience from your resume after you're fired and can't use this company as a reference? If you want to stay in China, the cancellation of your work visa might be a big hassle for you too. |
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crivens200
PopStar
Joined: Nov 05, 2007
Posts: 1146
Status: Offline
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Nov 04, 2009 - 12:23 PM |
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| Misteral wrote: |
You know yourself that you were not entitled to the extra money whether you have the
'legal' documents to back up a case or not. If you want a fight with the organisation, refuse to pay it back. If you do they will likely withhold the overpayment from your next due salary, even if it is more than that, and you will get involved in a legal dispute if you want to recover the withheld payment. As the above poster mentions it really all depends if you want to continue your relationship with the company or not. If not, there is still no guarantee you will be successful in your dispute. Pay the money back, you were not entitled to it and you know it. There is an old legal maxim "He who seeks equity (fairness) must come with clean hands". Your company made a mistake, you on the other hand were a bit sneaky, hoping nobody would notice the error (not that I completely blame you but the cat's out of the bag now). Ask yourself, who is the bad guy here? When the issue is put to you directly just plead ignorance, get a figure from them and pay it back with a smile on your face. |
Yup, I agree with you.
Not paying it back should be a sackable offence. And not pointing it out in the first place smacks of dishonesty and possibly also a sackable offence. Who wants someone so dishonest working for them? |
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Andreas
Board Legend
Joined: Feb 27, 2004
Posts: 10156
Location: s/v Waratah
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Nov 04, 2009 - 12:28 PM |
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| Post subject: Re: Legally overpaid? |
| CardCupGlue wrote: |
So I have been working in Shanghai for a couple years with my paychecks still coming from the US company to my US bank.
Recently I signed an employment contract with the Shanghai branch of my company, everyone with the understanding that part of my salary would come from the US and part in Shanghai.
Well, the US branch never changed my salary, so I have been receiving both salaries in full. Now the Accounting guys are sniffing around and have asked what happened.
My question is am I obliged to pay the money back that I was "overpaid", even though I have two separate employment contracts? The way I look at it is that it's the responsibility of my company to amend one contract due to the other - so I have been paid exactly according to the two contracts I have. However, I know the company will see it as I having been overpaid.
Thanks. |
Well, you knew from the start that you were not entitled to that extra money, and that eventually you had to give it back.
If I were you I would have reported the mistake right away. That would have looked a lot better, than now being caught by the accountants.
Sorry, but it does look quite dishonest to me, and I hope for you that there won't be repercussions. |
_________________
Time is the very substance of life; its golden minutes are the only stones we have with which to build. That spiritual building, not made with hands. |
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CardCupGlue
Lurker
Joined: Nov 04, 2009
Posts: 35
Status: Offline
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Nov 04, 2009 - 12:32 PM |
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| Post subject: Re: Legally overpaid? |
| Andreas wrote: |
Well, you knew from the start that you were not entitled to that extra money, and that eventually you had to give it back.
If I were you I would have reported the mistake right away. That would have looked a lot better, than now being caught by the accountants.
Sorry, but it does look quite dishonest to me, and I hope for you that there won't be repercussions. |
The issue was recognized by a colleague in the US, and we discussed how to fix the problem and he was waiting on some feed back about tax/health insurance implications. After that discussion I heard nothing back.
I did not push it every day, but I also did not hide from the fact.
But you are right - they could see it as me being dishonest for letting it go on so long! |
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fulltrack
Reacher
Joined: Sep 17, 2008
Posts: 295
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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Nov 04, 2009 - 12:34 PM |
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Ask for a pay back plan(3 or 5 years) with a fixed amount reduced from your current salary, this will give you a interest free loan on the "extra" salary which you didn't have earned in the first place and gives you guaranteed work in the future in the company. |
_________________
www.full-track.com - www.ragoservice.com |
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Seen
Reacher
Joined: Jan 14, 2009
Posts: 330
Status: Offline
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Nov 04, 2009 - 12:35 PM |
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| CardCupGlue wrote: |
Mistreal -
I agree that I am not necessarily entitled to the "extra money". but is this not more like an increase in salary because I am being paid exactly as my contracts state? I am not sure how one can say this is extra money if the amount paid is not exceeding the agreement.
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Seems to me you're trying to convince even yourself that the "extra money" you received is justified because the contract says so. You know that the situation has changed and that was not the agreed amount and that your company made a mistake. This is just like when the bank makes a mistake and mistakenly transferred money into your account, you're suppose to report it and not spend it.
But of course, if you want to leave you can just tell them to go screw themselves and resign. |
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Shangstar
Low Seater
Joined: Feb 07, 2008
Posts: 3398
Location: Spitland
Status: Offline
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Nov 04, 2009 - 01:02 PM |
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if the contract says part of the salary in Shanghai and part from the US, then you have been overpaid. Generally, you are required to payback overpayments under any contract. If the contracts each specified 100% salary, then its more complex, but the chances are the legal position is that, because you cant have been doing jobs in two places at the same time, you weren't entitled to it. English/US law generally takes a dim view of overpayments. If overpayments were allowed, then I suppose why not also allow underpayments if the parties were not aware? So, if the company underpaid you for a year without you noticing I doubt you'd be happy to accept the position on the basis you never queried it.
I had a mate at Credit Suisse who was overpaid every month for a year. He knew, but didn't tell anyone about it. He was sacked. |
_________________
The Vatican is against surrogate mothers. Good thing they didn't have that rule when Jesus was born...
Last edited by Shangstar on Nov 04, 2009 - 01:03 PM; edited 1 time in total |
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CardCupGlue
Lurker
Joined: Nov 04, 2009
Posts: 35
Status: Offline
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Nov 04, 2009 - 01:02 PM |
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| fulltrack wrote: |
| Ask for a pay back plan(3 or 5 years) with a fixed amount reduced from your current salary, this will give you a interest free loan on the "extra" salary which you didn't have earned in the first place and gives you guaranteed work in the future in the company. |
That's a good idea. 3-5 years is probably too long though, it's not like tens of thousands of dollars we are talking about.
Actually I am most curious (worried) whether or not the company will ask for the money back, or only fix the problem going forward.
Guess I will know tonight.... |
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jay_dee
SuperStar
Joined: Mar 22, 2009
Posts: 1411
Status: Offline
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Nov 04, 2009 - 01:04 PM |
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How long have you been overpaid, 1/2/3 months?
An ethical employee would have notified the SH branch immediatly and have the finance people resolve it between the 2 offices.
However, your inaction will certainly leave a bad impression on Management and would be grounds for dismissal in most firms.
Suggest you offer to repay as a lump-sum, you've been ahead of the game and it's payback time. |
_________________
US Expat in Shanghai
Last edited by jay_dee on Nov 04, 2009 - 01:09 PM; edited 1 time in total |
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CardCupGlue
Lurker
Joined: Nov 04, 2009
Posts: 35
Status: Offline
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Nov 04, 2009 - 01:05 PM |
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| Shangstar wrote: |
if the contract says part of the salary in Shanghai and part from the US, then you have been overpaid. Generally, you are required to payback overpayments under any contract. If the contracts each specified 100% salary, then its more complex, but the chances are the legal position is that, because you cant have been doing jobs in two places at the same time, you weren't entitled to it. English/US law generally takes a dim view of overpayments.
I had a mate at Credit Suisse who was overpaid every month for a year. He knew, but didn't tell anyone about it. He was sacked. |
My contracts both have a fixed amount for their respective region. When I signed the second contract, we discussed that the other contract would be modified, but no action was taken by the company for this.
Was your mate overpaid in a similar situation as mine? (two 100% contracts as you refer to it) |
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CardCupGlue
Lurker
Joined: Nov 04, 2009
Posts: 35
Status: Offline
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Nov 04, 2009 - 01:06 PM |
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| jay_dee wrote: |
How long have you been overpaid?
An ethical employee would have notified the SH branch immediatly and have the finance people resolve it between the 2 offices.
However, your inaction leaves a bad impression and would be grounds for dismissal in most firms. |
4 months. |
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jay_dee
SuperStar
Joined: Mar 22, 2009
Posts: 1411
Status: Offline
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Nov 04, 2009 - 01:11 PM |
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Repay the total amount ASAP and pray there are no repercussions. |
_________________
US Expat in Shanghai |
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Shangstar
Low Seater
Joined: Feb 07, 2008
Posts: 3398
Location: Spitland
Status: Offline
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Nov 04, 2009 - 01:18 PM |
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no my mate was only on the one contract, but he got sacked for dishonesty. I still think they'd simply argue that it would be impossible for you to be doing 2 jobs and therefore overpaid. They'd use your discussions as evidence. Am pretty sure you'd need to pay it back. I know though in the UK, if you send a notice to the employer with all the payslips saying you accept the position as it is, then that could be grounds for keeping it, but you'd need to have done it after every salary payment. This is the position with bank accounts where banks mistakenly deposit money. If you send off a copy of the statement to the bank saying account is accepted as is, the money is yours, but again, you need to do it quite soon. |
_________________
The Vatican is against surrogate mothers. Good thing they didn't have that rule when Jesus was born... |
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CardCupGlue
Lurker
Joined: Nov 04, 2009
Posts: 35
Status: Offline
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Nov 04, 2009 - 03:15 PM |
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Sh*t, I should have fixed this mess when it first happened.
Now I will be paranoid all night that I will get fired |
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Shangstar
Low Seater
Joined: Feb 07, 2008
Posts: 3398
Location: Spitland
Status: Offline
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Nov 04, 2009 - 03:20 PM |
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return the overpayments with no further ado. Seriously, employers dont tolerate this kind of thing. But you'll have to chat with the accounts people to ascertain the tax and social security position, as they would have been overpaying these as well I guess? |
_________________
The Vatican is against surrogate mothers. Good thing they didn't have that rule when Jesus was born... |
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Klick
LoopKicker
Joined: Jan 04, 2009
Posts: 812
Location: pupudongadong
Status: Offline
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Nov 04, 2009 - 03:40 PM |
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I like how the OP has gone from "All this money is mine, right?" to " Oh f*ck I'm going to get fired, aren't I" in less than 10 posts. |
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CardCupGlue
Lurker
Joined: Nov 04, 2009
Posts: 35
Status: Offline
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Nov 04, 2009 - 03:44 PM |
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| Klick wrote: |
| I like how the OP has gone from "All this money is mine, right?" to " Oh f*ck I'm going to get fired, aren't I" in less than 10 posts. |
Yeah, well I received NO positive feedback supporting my illusion that I could easily keep the money. So now I am working on a 6 month repayment proposal. |
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MoonOverMiami
PopStar
Joined: Jan 07, 2008
Posts: 1044
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Nov 04, 2009 - 03:48 PM |
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You spent the excess salary?  |
_________________
I will tell you what just happened in there. That chick just frosted me like a f****n cake!!! |
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ProcrastiNation
Reacher
Joined: Oct 21, 2008
Posts: 302
Status: Offline
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Nov 04, 2009 - 03:49 PM |
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Put yourself in the shoes of the employer. If you made a mistake paying someone to do a job out of your pocket would you expect them to pay you back? and secondly what would you do if they didn't give you the money back?
Alternatively you could look at the opposite scenario. If the company paid you less, would you expect them to back date the missing pay? |
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guinness
Reacher
Joined: July 15, 2009
Posts: 231
Status: Offline
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Nov 04, 2009 - 03:52 PM |
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Plus, you wouldn't want anyone at your company finding this thread and your posts somehow (you may have colleagues in your company in SGH who are members and somehow work out who you are from any previous posts?), so I would definitely contact them asap... |
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