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cantaloupe
Newbie
Joined: May 11, 2005
Posts: 1
Status: Offline
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  Posted:
May 11, 2005 - 05:11 AM |
 
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| Post subject: Can a seasoned expat offer any words of wisdom?? |
Hi All
I'm a new guy on this site - currently I'm a student in Scotland doing a degree in Construction Project Management, and I'm learning mandarin at nite school.
I'm wondering if Shanghai can provide an expat life on a western salary? A lot of people say that this lifestyle is hard to find now. I know a lot of M.East countries are promoting repatriation policies.
I know it's going to take a lot of work, and that I will have to get in with a company here first - but is this an achievable goal?
Cheers
Hugh |
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skyline5k
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 06, 2004
Posts: 8816
Location: i am ERROR
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
May 11, 2005 - 08:28 AM |
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Possible, if you get into the right company. A lot of times, companies would send you over on a short stint though. If you plan on staying for a few years like some people here, then you'll have to make it clear to the companies of your intentions up front. Mags & C could probably shed more light on it. I didn't come here under those particular circumstances. |
_________________
"1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d" |
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Caesara
Post Roaster
Joined: July 31, 2004
Posts: 4572
Location: The Middle Kingdom (Shanghai)
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
May 11, 2005 - 09:51 AM |
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cantaloupe, there are many levels of "Western salary" and "expat lifestyle" available in Shanghai. In general, yes, a Western salary will provide for an expat lifestyle. Pretty much any level of "Western salary" will mean that you're getting more than double a local salary. If you have special skills, experience in your field, or a competitive advantage, you should expect to receive even more than that. Additionally, most companies provide some amount of "housing allowance" on top of your base salary.
I'm not sure what you are getting at when mentioning the Middle Eastern repatriation policies. Trying to compare those to China's? Are you of Middle Eastern extraction? Do you have a specific, lucrative opportunity in the Middle East right now (apart from the current general need for construction project management)? Am I missing something? (Entirely possible, that last option!)
I would advise that you seek a contract with a Western company or an international company -- not that there is anything wrong with a local one. However, Western companies and MNCs have less of a reputation for giving employees contract hassles once they arrive, and they are usually more generous when it comes to providing an expat-level salary package. Yes, you're looking at an achievable goal.
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yu888
Board Deity
Joined: Jan 25, 2003
Posts: 18210
Location: ZhongShanParkArea SH
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May 11, 2005 - 10:11 AM |
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Hmmm, expat lifestyle? Maybe you need to explain what your definition of expatt lifestyle is. Many of us are here on "local" packages or less and still live an "expat lifestyle", but that is because we come with experience and skill sets that are readily needed here. Thus despite not working for a multinational which assigns one here, it is still possible to live a very nice lifestyle.
The days of the high end packages coming in to China are limited. There are many qualified billingual professionals in many fields that are willing to come here to work even on reduced packages, just to explore the opportunities for growth in this area. As someone coming out from school. you need to decide whether the opportunity is worth the reduced compensation intitially, or if maybe just staying somewhere else with higher compensation is better for you.
But the short answer to your question is...if I arrived here and just made my previous western salary, i would live like a king. But I would still be working for someone and not have control over my destiny. Hope that helps. |
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jase
PopStar
Joined: July 08, 2004
Posts: 1193
Location: Dubai
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May 13, 2005 - 02:02 PM |
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Hugh,
I'm a Brit Expat also in construction/engineering, and have worked in HK (7yr) & Dubai (4yr) and have now been in Shanghai for 9 months.
My personal preference is for Asia over the Middle East. Yes Dubai is very luxurious, nice villa, car, beaches etc, but even being tax free I found it difficult to save money there as i had originally expected (and thats with my company paying for housing & utilities!!!). It's not a cheap place to live, your relient on a car, but during the summer months I found i was either in my a/c house, in the a/c car, a/c office or a/c pub. Ok, winter is good to get out in the desert n wadii's n do some camping but............
.......Shanghai. I'm getting to like this place lots. Not half as pretentious as Dubai, good location for onward travel to other parts of asia too. I'm fortunate in the fact that I work for a German company & get paid in Euro's. I get 30 days holiday a year & a good salary (well good enough for me, thats for sure). My posting here was only originally for a few months before i was meant to be assigned to Singapore, but ........ well, things have changed, and the short term plan looks like i'll be in China for the next 1-2yrs at least (though will relocate to Beijing around August).
Please feel free to PM me if you think i may be able to assist or advise you on anything.
Breast retards,
Jase. |
_________________
7th Commandment; Thou shall not admit adultery |
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SC3
Reacher
Joined: Nov 19, 2004
Posts: 245
Status: Offline
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May 13, 2005 - 05:07 PM |
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My Ten Cents worth:
Mandarin ability + specific industry experience = fat package still very possible. I disagree with those who say that the days of fat packages are over, as companies are still struggling to find the skills they need lcoally (if anything the skill shortage is getting worse). However the two conditions in the already mentioned equation are necessary.
Personally I was transferred here (on my request) with three years experience in my company in my home country, with enough Chinese to be able to sit in meetings and contribute. I am not on a fat package but live comfortably and can save a big chunk of my salary each month.
SC3 |
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psychodrew
Reacher
Joined: July 31, 2003
Posts: 236
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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May 13, 2005 - 05:33 PM |
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China's people problem
Apr 14th 2005 | HONG KONG AND SHANGHAI
From The Economist print edition
Problems recruiting and retaining workers, particularly skilled ones,
are raising the cost of doing business in China
CAN China—population 1.3 billion—really be running short of people? In
many of the most important parts of its booming economy, the answer,
increasingly, is yes. Though China has a vast pool of unskilled
labour, firms in the south now complain that they cannot recruit
enough cheap factory and manual workers. The market is even tighter
for skilled labour. As the economy grows and moves into higher
value-added work, the challenge of attracting and retaining staff is
rising with the skill level, as demand outstrips supply. The result is
escalating costs for firms operating in China. "If you think that
China is a cheap place for labour, think again," says Vincent Gauthier
of Hewitt Associates, a human-resources consultancy.
The particular shortages mentioned most often are of creativity, of an
aptitude for risk-taking and, above all, of an ability to manage—in
everything from human resources and accounting to sales, distribution,
branding and project-management.
Though developing economies often encounter talent shortages as they
start to grow, China's history has left it with some peculiar
deficits. Its Confucian heritage, which emphasises rote learning and
hierarchy, may partly explain why many graduates, despite good paper
qualifications and English language skills, are often cautious about
taking the initiative. Some firms complain that China's one-child
policy has made it harder for them to find natural team-players. That
there are few MBA programmes in China may not help either.
Large parts of China's economy remain in thrall to the state, where
loyalty to the Communist party more than business acumen drives career
success. Jeff Barnes, "chief learning officer" at General Electric
(GE) in China, says that the "issue we have is finding mid-level and
top-level leadership. The Chinese talent is first-generation. They
don't have role models. Their parents worked for state-owned
companies."
The wrong sort of chairman
Chairman Mao's Cultural Revolution in 1966-76 wiped out a generation
of management potential, as millions of Chinese learned that
capitalism was evil. After a lifetime under socialism, many lack the
mindset to adopt western working practices. In China, says Jack
Perkowski, boss of Asimco Technologies, a supplier of vehicle parts,
"the talent pool consists either of managers from state firms who are
too bureaucratic or entrepreneurs who have come up through the private
sector and are unconstrained by capital or the law."
Foreign firms now invest some $1 billion a week in China. As they
expand, they increasingly need workers able to handle the complexities
of multi-site operations. Staff shortages threaten these plans. In a
recent speech, Arics Poon, managing director of Oracle for South China
and Hong Kong, said that "we need a group of strong, professional
managers or we may fail to support our growth in China." Anthony Wu,
head of accounting firm Ernst & Young (E&Y) in Hong Kong and China,
admits that "we have decided not to tender for some major clients
because we feel we don't have the staff to service them."
Business plans for China rarely reflect the cost and time involved in
recruiting and retaining local staff. Firms are finding that they
cannot replace expensive expatriate staff with cheaper local hires
("localise" in the jargon) as quickly as they hoped. Many
underestimate the cost of local staff. Chinese graduates often have an
inflated view of their own worth, complain some foreign managers.
Multinationals are also competing for talent with China's domestic
companies, which need to improve the quality of their people as their
markets open to foreign rivals.
Chinese people returning from overseas (lyrically named hai-gui or
"returning turtles") are plugging some of the shortages, particularly
at the most senior levels. David Wei, president of B&Q China, Yifei
Li, managing director of MTV China, and Zhu Min, head of restructuring
at Bank of China, all worked or were at least partly educated outside
China. But at a more junior level, returnees can sometimes have
problems reintegrating, may lack local market knowledge and are
expensive.
Recruitment, retention and localisation of staff is now top of the
agenda for firms in China. Paolo Gasparrini, head of China for
L'Oréal, a French cosmetics firm, says that "to find good people in
China is not easy. Technically and in administration they are very
good. But in marketing—a crucial discipline—there are just a few
people with short experience and everyone is competing for them. You
find yourself micro-managing more than you'd like." Mr Poon concurs:
"If the tasks are across departments, or if it means working in a team
or trying to relate to others, they [Chinese staff] still have a long
way to go."
Fierce competition and a limited supply of talent is resulting in high
turnover rates. "The biggest issue is retention of people," says E&Y's
Mr Wu. "Retention is much cheaper than recruitment." One in ten
executives changed job in the southern city of Shenzhen last year and
one in 12 in Beijing, according to Hewitt. The same research points to
a nationwide employee churn rate of 11.3% in 2004, up from 8.3% in
2001. Some smaller firms see turnover as high as 30%, but leading
global firms are not immune. L'Oréal, with 3,000 people in China, says
that staff turnover in its marketing department is nearly 15%. "A lot
of fresh graduates leave. We lose almost all we hire in the first
three years," says Daisy Dai, its human-resources director.
Pay and benefits are soaring. A Chinese middle manager at a foreign
company in Beijing or Shanghai can now command total annual cash
compensation (salary plus bonus) of $27,000-$32,000, says Hewitt.
Senior managers receive between $46,000 and $54,000 and top executives
can expect $80,000 to $90,000 or more. While underlying inflation in
China is around 2%, average annual salary increases for mid-level and
senior managers are now 6-10%. Lai Kam-tong at the Hong Kong Institute
of Human Resource Management says that accountants' salaries are
rising by 14% a year. Jürgen Viethen, general manager for F&G China
Electric, a small Spanish-owned electrical switchgear-maker, is
offering key employees raises of up to 50%—and still losing them.
Bonuses, longer-term incentives, free housing and meals, a mobile
phone and a set of wheels are becoming standard perks. More than
one-third of 1,600 multinational firms surveyed by Hewitt now offer a
company car. More holidays, maternity and paternity leave, more
frequent job rotation and share options also now feature. Add in the
big contributions that employers must make to China's national
security fund system and the total cost of an employee can be double
his basic pay.
Above all, Chinese employees want good training, as they are acutely
aware of the limitations of their educational system and keen to
acquire marketable skills. Ping-on Mak, senior human resources manager
for GE Consumer Finance in Asia, says that the attitude of many young
Chinese managers is "if I want training, I'll go work for a
multinational and then after three years I'll leave." But GE, with an
in-house "university", and L'Oréal, which provides mentoring, say that
training produces employees who tend to stay longer.
Some foreign firms hope to persuade the expatriates they send out to
stay longer than first planned—despite their higher cost. Some are
relocating operations from the coast to smaller, cheaper cities to tap
new markets for talent. Some are even considering outsourcing from
China itself, by moving parts of their operations to, say, Vietnam and
Cambodia, where the workforce is even cheaper and younger.
None of this has, yet, slowed China's economic growth. Basing
production in mainland China remains cost-effective for most foreign
firms. But the growing shortage of executive talent may make the
growth assumptions written into many business plans over-optimistic.
F&G's Mr Viethen's lament that, despite being a business manager, "I
spend most of my time on human resources, not sales," rings true at
many foreign firms in China.
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