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matty

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Joined: Mar 01, 2004
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Posted: Aug 03, 2005 - 02:51 PM
Post subject: Devere Partners

I've just been quoted a longterm investment product from Devere and Partners. It seems OK, but what do other people think about them? What other players are around that I can contact for a 2nd and 3rd opinion?

Snippets

PopStar

Joined: Apr 09, 2005
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Posted: Aug 03, 2005 - 05:13 PM

What are you talking about?

matty

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Posted: Aug 03, 2005 - 05:26 PM

I am talking about choosing a good company to set up a long term expat investment plan. I have never done it before, so I want to make sure I make a good choice.

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Magnolia
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Joined: June 01, 2004
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Posted: Aug 03, 2005 - 06:34 PM

Offshore investment?

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Snippets

PopStar

Joined: Apr 09, 2005
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Posted: Aug 03, 2005 - 11:11 PM

Be very very very careful. IN NO WAY am I saying ANYTHING bad about this firm because I do NOT know them -- for alls I know they may be the best thing in the world. I am just speaking in general terms. The reason for my original question is that you made an assumption that all of us have been contacted by this firm and therefore can provide you with feedback.

Why don't you elaborate on it more here so people can provide more sensible feedback. There are some really smart people here, so it wouldnt hurt.

I wish I would have found this board years ago.

bus3
Rocker
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Joined: July 25, 2004
Posts: 753
Location: Here and there

Posted: Aug 03, 2005 - 11:28 PM

Snippets right, more detail is needed. Also, your age and goals would be helpful. There are lots of plans out there but they may not fit what you want. You do seem to have a long term perspective, that is good.

matty

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Posted: Aug 04, 2005 - 08:09 AM

I asked a more general question about finace a few months ago and can not find the thread.

I am a 32 year old male from the UK. I am working as a teacher in Shanghai and play to be here or Asia for the forseeable future. This is the first time I have worked outside the UK. I want an offshore investment product that will give me the equivalent of at least 10 000 RMB a month after I am 60, so I can retire to somewhere like Thailand. I spent a few years paying into a teacher's pension in the UK, but I can not do that anymore. I do have the option of transferring it to a new investment plan. I can also carry on paying national insurance so I can draw UK state pesnion after I am 65. I have a house in the UK, which I rent out to paying tenants.

DeVere's are offering me an offshore product from Generali that I would pay into at $500 a month over 25 years and forecasts growth of 8 to 10% per annum. The funds are invested in unit trusts on the stock market and then switched to government bonds after 25 years. They say that the risk is insured upto 90% because the funds are based in Guernsey. The idae is to save up to $250 000 over 25 years and use the interest as revenue thereafter.

This sounds good, but I want to know what drawbacks or alternatives I should look out for.

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benkloepfer

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Posted: Aug 04, 2005 - 08:40 AM

Good Questions
I'm also interested in off-shore banking but don't know anything about it. About two months ago a company called Austin Morris and Associates called me out of the blue and wanted to sell me on off-shore investments. I didn't go to meet them even though I was really interested in their services. But I was leary of any company who would call me at work to sell investment advice, when I'd never met them and don't know how they got my name or telephone number. Does anybody know anything about Austin Morris?

What about off-shore banking in general. Is it safe? Do you have to pay taxes on the income generated through those investments. If I move back to the US how will I be able to get my money out when its time to retire or pay for my kids' university?

Ben

adrenochrome

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Posted: Aug 04, 2005 - 09:09 AM

Just my two cents:

That company calls nearly every expat in SH. They called me nearly every week and at one point in time I had to be rude to stop receiving those calls.

If you want to do something offshore: Do it in Hong Kong, not here. This is, at the end of the day, a developing country, and your levels of protection in case something goes wrong, are up to my knowledge rather limited.

Cheers,

Adreno

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itaye

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Posted: Aug 04, 2005 - 09:50 AM

You can double check with

http://www.austenmorris.com

or

www.huntermckenzie.com

or many others.
PM for names and phones of SH representative

As already pointed out, there is plenty of Company offering this kind of investments in SH.
In my opinion, the best way is to buy directly the funds from Generali you mentioned or whatever.
The growth will be exactley the same, I'm not really sure that the support offered by cunsultant is useful (they will disappear immediately after the subscription of the plan), and investing by yourself you are not obliged to follow any plan.

pparsons

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Posted: Aug 04, 2005 - 10:54 AM

Matty, get some independent financial advice (that is, advice from someone who is NOT trying to sell you a product). Get it from an accountant or a foreign bank.

Aside from security of your capital (the money you put in), I would say the fees charged by the promoter is the next biggest issue you need to consider. What are the entry fess, exit fees, commissions paid to the salesperson, trailing commissions (where the sales person continues to receive money for doing nothing!)? Apart from the moeny, sales people also receive soft commissions (holidays, computers etc). You are entitled to have all of this disclosed so you can make an informed decision about the likely motivation for the sale (it certainly won't be your benefit).

Forget the forecast returns, that's just sales talk. Are these gross rates of return, after fees have been deducted, or real rates of return? If they are real rates of return, then they seem too high. Remember there is a direct, inescapable correlation between risk and return.

Think about how much you are contributing to the scheme over 25 years: $150,000, and you are going to get back $250,000! I don't have my present value calculator with me at the moment, but I know 10% return will double your money in approx 7 years. And 7% return will double your money in 10 years. You are being offered a lousy rate of return. I would suspect that most of the money is going in fees to the promoter. These blood-sucking parasites add no value, but take a portion of your contribution, including trailing commissions for the life of the product.

And forget about switching to government bonds just because you are retired. Even retirees need to continue to invest in capital growth opportunities. Sure, you may adjust your risk profile, but straight into bonds is a poor decision (and still the trailing commissions will be paid).

You'd be much better off making your own direct investment in the share market, even if it is in a listed company that buys shares in other listed companies.

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R2D2

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Posted: Aug 04, 2005 - 11:32 AM

pparsons is quite right about certain things.

Basic questions to ponder......

1. Issuer, manager & underwriter?
2. Track record & history of previous issues?
3. Management fee & all hidden fees?
4. Penalties for premature termination?
5. Withholding tax?
6. Tax at country of domicile?
7. Stockmarket?
8. Equity counters & weightages?
9. Spread between buy & sell?
10. Composition for equity vis-a-vis bond?
11. Forecast based on best, normal or worst scenario?
12. Currency of investment?
13. Country of governing law?

matty

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Posted: Aug 04, 2005 - 11:40 AM

I've just made a spreadsheet modelling many different average growth rates over 25 years and it seems 4% would allow my fund to grow to $250 000 over 25 years.

My main question is why the forecast will be so low compared with average rates of growth they predict? Are they planning on taking the rest of the growth in the funds for their own fee?

Thanks for the advice people have given me. It has really opened up my eyes.

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pparsons

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Posted: Aug 04, 2005 - 11:44 AM

Either the forecasts are fictitious or the fees are exorbitant. You might suspect both.

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R2D2

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Posted: Aug 04, 2005 - 01:01 PM

In addition to my earlier questions to ponder.............

14. Close or Open End?
15. Listed or Unlisted?

R2D2

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Posted: Aug 04, 2005 - 01:22 PM

matty, it is only a forecast and you can't fault them for claiming to be "prudent". But then, it opens an opportunity for you to explore with them the questions that pparsons has so nicely put it: fictitious forecast or exorbitant fees?

hammerforlife
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Joined: May 24, 2004
Posts: 2744

Posted: Aug 04, 2005 - 01:52 PM

Matty, you are asking the right questions and are being given some useful advice. I was lucky. I didn't know much about this type of thing and after contacting one or two companies/individuals that were just after lining their pockets I found a good one who wouldn't given me any recommendations until they understood the details of my situation.

Be wary if you are only offered one product. It is likely to be the one with the highest commission. Try to get at least three similar products and compare charges etc. In your position you really need a flexible product. It is highly unlikely that you will stay doing what you are doing for the rest of your life. You want to look at the effect of being able to increase / reduce / stop payments etc.

Contrary to what a lot of people will say the offshore investment industry is not only full of crooks. The companies where your money will be invested are very solid and stable, as much if not more so than your local high street bank.

I sound like a saleman but I am not. I am an engineer but have some money offshore so I am a customer. I am not here to promote any company but I know a damn good advisor (mine). If anyone wants his details just pm me.

hammerforlife
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Joined: May 24, 2004
Posts: 2744

Posted: Aug 04, 2005 - 01:55 PM

itaye wrote:

In my opinion, the best way is to buy directly the funds from Generali you mentioned or whatever.
The growth will be exactley the same, I'm not really sure that the support offered by cunsultant is useful (they will disappear immediately after the subscription of the plan), and investing by yourself you are not obliged to follow any plan.

Most of these companies do not deal with the public, hence the need for an advisor.

Newbie

Joined: Dec 04, 2004
Posts: 4

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Posted: Aug 04, 2005 - 03:43 PM

Please take a look at http://www.offshore2online.com which is an online resource allowing you to compare the various products available at leisure and without pressure.

Supporting these are an automatic fund-switching service that follows expert opinion (and has returned 28% in the last 12 months), and instant reporting via an online valuation service.

If you become a member (membership is free) then you also have access to state-of the-art interactive tools such as a budget planner, net worth calculator and retirement planner.

The platform also provides additional consumer protection as it is based and legislated in Hong Kong, and subject to HKSAR law.

To add my tuppence to some of the points above.

• Generali is a respectable company. You should also consider both Zurich International and Friends Provident.
• Offshore banking is completely safe. There are many high street brands (HSBC, Standard Chartered etc.) and, though confidential, it forms part of the British banking system. Anglo Irish invariably provide the best deposit returns.
• US nationals can invest in most of these products though it should be noted that you will have to stop contributing into a regular savings plan if resident in the US as each payment is viewed as a chargeable event. Proceeds from such plans can be paid into a bank account anywhere, and in any major currency.
• The support is as important (if not more) as the product. However good the vehicle, if it is not serviced correctly, it will not take you to where you want to go. Funds should be regularly reviewed and switched in line with market opinion. As such, products with no bid/offer spread and free switching are best.
• These plans offer good value at an average annual charge of 1.2-2.5% per annum depending on the structure. Beware non-standard funds which have an additional layer of charges.
• Totally agree with the point on bonds. Just because you stop work does not mean that your money should also. We recommend 2-3 years’ living costs kept in no/low risk. Any crash or market correction is almost always recovered within two years.
• When budgeting do not forget the effect of inflation. At just 2.5% per annum inflation, $1 will be worth just 54 cents in 25 years.

AW – Offshore2online - Hong Kong/Shanghai/Singapore

bougie
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Joined: Nov 20, 2004
Posts: 13424
Location: Wuhan Hubei China

Posted: Aug 04, 2005 - 03:50 PM

matty wrote:

DeVere's are offering me an offshore product from Generali that I would pay into at $500 a month over 25 years and forecasts growth of 8 to 10% per annum. The funds are invested in unit trusts on the stock market and then switched to government bonds after 25 years. They say that the risk is insured upto 90% because the funds are based in Guernsey. The idae is to save up to $250 000 over 25 years and use the interest as revenue thereafter.

This sounds good, but I want to know what drawbacks or alternatives I should look out for.

Hi Matty.

There are several companies that offer the same service, maybe 5 or 6 companies. Some things you should consider is how long they have been in SH, what kind of licences they have, etc. In other words, they will be in SH for good.

Actually we talked to three companies that offered exactly the same products including Generali. And we ended up choosing Devere's over T&A and another one I can't remember. You have to be comfortable with the company, as well as the selling agent - but the products they offer are mostly all the same, and seem like good products. The Generali fund is made up of very large and successful funds that are very secure.

Hope that helps...pm for more details

Bougie

matty

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Posted: Aug 05, 2005 - 11:10 AM

Thanks for the advice everyone. It's been really helpful. I still have an open mind about this so I'm taking a little time researching the options. I had a meeting with Devere's again and was quite forensic with them. I'm sure their offshore Generali product will yeild much more than just putting my money in a bank for 25 years. I asked them a lot about charges and it seems that I will lose about 15% of the growth in funds as charges.

Does this sound excessive given that I do not want to micro manage my investment? Does anyone know any good sites where I can get historical data showing returns on different investment platforms (property, stock market, bonds, offshore savings plans, etc) given that I do not have a degree in economics?

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hammerforlife
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Joined: May 24, 2004
Posts: 2744

Posted: Aug 05, 2005 - 11:26 AM

Matty, can't help with your specific question I'm afraid but you are certainly taking the right approach and grilling the guy about your particular concerns. Just two questions for you though to consider.

Have they offered you any other products in comparison? It may be useful to see how the different products stack up.

Secondly what about managing the funds where your money will be put? You may have your cash put into sensible funds now but what about in 10 years time? Perhaps the investment climate will change and other funds may be more appropriate. With the product you are looking at is there a mechanism to monitor on a fairly regular basis to make sure you money is working hard? And of course you want to be paying minimum fees for this service too.

But you are definately taking the right approach. Make sure the guy works hard for your business!

Good luck.

bougie
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Joined: Nov 20, 2004
Posts: 13424
Location: Wuhan Hubei China

Posted: Aug 05, 2005 - 02:32 PM

There are some other competitive products you can look at, I think they were mentioned above. Providence, and some others. They are quite they same, and work in such a way: For 12-24 months (depending on the products) this money is locked in. After this period, this initial money remains 'froozen' but all the money invested after this becomes available or liquid. You also can stop either temporaily or reduce / increase your contributions after this 'froozen' period, with no penalties or issues.

The product is made up of well known funds that have various interests (example asia pacific, stocks, bonds, gold, etc etc). Through your selling agent, you can change your portfolio around (without cost) depending on market conditions, etc. One example is that maybe your product is made up of 4 or 5 funds. Actually other products than Generali may have the same funds.

If for some reason you are not happy with your agent, you can dish him and deal direct with Generali, for example...

hammerforlife
Fire-eater

Joined: May 24, 2004
Posts: 2744

Posted: Aug 05, 2005 - 03:01 PM

bougie wrote:

Yes my product works in the same way. A tie in for 2-3 years (during which you receive quite large bonuses) and after that its pretty flexible.

One point which you highlight is that, as you rightly say, you can change the funds depending on market conditions. However not many of us are smart enough or clued up enough or have the time to know (or care) which funds we are in. The reason I went with my company is that the funds get automatically switched should market conditions change (unless of course I instruct them otherwise). I would rather that than have funds selected by myself or probably even worse by the saleman who sold me the product.

bougie
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Posts: 13424
Location: Wuhan Hubei China

Posted: Aug 05, 2005 - 03:49 PM

^ good points as well. Actually, I choose this particular company because of his personal knowledge of some of the funds and he was able to convince us that he would manage this fund well.

Example, for the beginning you can offord to be more aggressive as you are working with dollar cost averaging. Of course, probably better off as you progress later in the plan to "lock in" , so to speak , the %'ages by using slightly more conservation, stable funds. Towards the end of this plan, the last thing you want to do is be too aggreesive and quickly loose what you've been building for so long.

I'm not sure if you agree with me hammerforlife. I'm still curious about this automated version that you speak about. Does it monitor the funds by technical charts and adjust accordingly ??