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benkloepfer

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Joined: Sep 02, 2004
Posts: 1042

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Posted: Sep 05, 2005 - 02:11 PM
Post subject: Question for engineers and the like-minded

Hello all you engineers out there! Here's a question for you:
Is it a waste of time to go back to school for a Master's Degree in Engineering?

I'm getting a little burnt out after working in the automotive industry for the last 5 years, and now I'm thinking about going back to school for a Master's in Mechatronics.

If I sink 10-20k USD into a Master's degree and then have two years of lost income at about 60k a piece, do you think I'll ever get my return on investment?

My background and experience screams to me: "Just get an MBA!!".
But honestly, I'm not that interested in business.

Any Advice?

Best Regards,
Ben

fabien.benetou

Barker

Joined: May 13, 2005
Posts: 160
Location: Shanghai
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Posted: Sep 05, 2005 - 02:24 PM

Actually I still don't have my engineer degree yet but I already thought of MBA.
Why ? Probably because it's trendy, having an MBA is fashionable in working place isn't it ? Really..
Now I tend to see things differently, what is the real purpose of an MBA, could it provides me really more than just experience and teamwork with marketing, business, sales teams ?

I mean, getting a title is important but some MBAs have just the title and the expense (time maybe even more than money) maybe not worth. I don't have your background and knowledge about the subject so Im posting here mainly to expose my PoW and to check what answers you'll get but as you said, jumping on a MBA maybe is not THE solution, especially if you are not (yet ?) into business stuff.

Why do you want an engineer degree ? What will it gives you beside wages ? Can't your compagny give you formation (internal or not) ?

Andreas
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Posted: Sep 05, 2005 - 02:43 PM

I have an engineering degree, and I think it's the best investment I have ever made. But having said that, this is only my personal view.
I am not so impressed by these MBA's. The academics tought in an MBA program can be learned in a week from a $25 textbook. I think the main benefit from these MBA programs are the networking opportunities, and for that it's quite a lot of money.

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itaye

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Joined: Oct 22, 2004
Posts: 265
Location: Shanghai
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Posted: Sep 05, 2005 - 02:45 PM

I hold a master degree in Mechatronics.
I believe that if you are really interest in learning, you like to know more, you like to understand in deep how machines work, you like to study, you want to achive better knowldge and better personal satisfaction while working, a further education can be the right choice.
As a very expensive gift to yourself, like a trip around the world.
But if you are looking for career, I would not invest in a master.
Same for MBA.

benkloepfer

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Joined: Sep 02, 2004
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Posted: Sep 05, 2005 - 02:49 PM

To answer your question, I already have a Bachelor's degree in Mechanical Engineering but sometimes I wish I had studied Electrical Engineering. The master's degree is mainly so I can have a better understanding of electronics and be able to make a slight career change.

Of course an MBA would put you into a better position for management (and therefore higher pay), but I've already had a taste of management and found that I don't really care for it.

My company might pay for some of my education, but I don't plan on asking them until I figured out exactly what I want to do.

benkloepfer

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Posted: Sep 05, 2005 - 02:52 PM

itaye,
I can see your view point about how the master's degree is like a very expensive gift to yourself. But why do you say the same for MBA? I thought if anyone wants to get further in management they almot have to have an MBA....

benkloepfer

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Posted: Sep 05, 2005 - 02:53 PM

itaye,
Where did you get your Mechatronics Degree from?

Andreas
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Joined: Feb 27, 2004
Posts: 6774
Location: 31 N 121 E

Posted: Sep 05, 2005 - 02:54 PM

I think that in a lot of companies the value of an MBA has been put into a more realistic perspective. I work for a big engineering company from Europe, and an MBA is by far not a guarantee for a management position and higher pay anymore.
Itaye has a good point with his post. Whatever you do, do it for your personal development.

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kuldaen

Veejay

Joined: June 06, 2005
Posts: 2076
Location: Somewhere in Shanghai
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Posted: Sep 05, 2005 - 02:55 PM

I tried to start my Masters in Computer Engineering twice but found that I just couldn't do it while working.
Basically I felt I was working two jobs and couldn't keep it up. To do it probably I had to put my career on
hold and it just didn't make sense to me since the only reason I'd do a Masters is for my career!

I guess it depends on what sort of work you do but in my industry, experience is more important than
pieces of paper. If I had done my MEng, I would be two years experience behind and thats at least >20K difference
when I look back on it. Plus the lost income while doing the course.

Anyway funny enough I eventually did a Masters in Astronomy part time and finished it . I think it
was because I found it much more interesting and also it was fairly unrelated to the work I was doing.

fabien.benetou

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Posts: 160
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Posted: Sep 05, 2005 - 02:59 PM

Reading Dilbert (or Dogbert in fact here) is equivalent to an MBA ? (Andreas ? :p)

benkloepfer : if it's just to learn "how things work" I think you'd better learn that all by yourself. Being curious to how things work is part of the engineer mind I think, as finding solution to problems but also learning on your own (as you'll be confronted to different problems each time) is also key.

If you want a career change maybe it's best (on a knowledge AND economical position) to just ask for lower wages you have now and learn directly to the "source" as maybe you'll find studying with youngster a bit slow/boring.
In fact maybe having a 50/50 split of your time between university and an electronics job could boost you instead of just focusing on studies only.
(don't know if it could be done here actually but in Europe it's quite commun)

didarx79

Raver

Joined: Mar 23, 2005
Posts: 414
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Posted: Sep 05, 2005 - 03:00 PM

Don't you need a Master's to be licensed and registered engineer? If so, then I would think that getting a Master's is definately necessary if you plan to have a career in engineering... But then again, I may be wrong. All I know is that there are so many MBA's in China now. If you do want to get an MBA's, get it from a prestigious school.

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Andreas
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Posted: Sep 05, 2005 - 03:05 PM

fabien.benetou wrote:

Reading Dilbert (or Dogbert in fact here) is equivalent to an MBA ? (Andreas ? :p)

LOL fabien, I would not go that far Wink

Most of what is covered in an MBA program is common sense in my opinion.

I saw three job applicants last week for a position in finance management. Two of them had an MBA, and failed the simplest questions regarding basic accounting principles....

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Henry_Chinaski
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Joined: Aug 16, 2003
Posts: 5025

Posted: Sep 05, 2005 - 04:11 PM

MBA is the biggest scam in the education industry, EVER.

Had so many, but so many hopeless MBAs in my previous company that I completely gave up doing one myself. What? Be compared to this trash? No way.

Agree with Andreas that most of what an MBA teaches you can be learned by more effective, inexpensive ways.

I think MBA/education is a multiplication. It will multiply what you already know. 0 x MBA is still = 0. You see 24yo people doing an MBA thinking they will bring Wall Street to their feet. Makes me laugh so hard.

MBAs, networking events, all a lot of hot air that makes you feel good but doesnt deliver, doesnt cut the mustard.

It's good for the economy though.

A sucker and his money never stay together for long. MBAs are a big proof of that.

There are exceptions though.

dfoo

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Joined: Jan 19, 2005
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Posted: Sep 05, 2005 - 04:17 PM

Fully agree. Most people who have done MBAs would have been better off working in the industry and learning what really counts, not what the MBA schools teach.

If a company thinks that an MBA matters, you'd be better off working for a different company.

trip

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Posted: Sep 05, 2005 - 04:50 PM

Hey Ben,

I am also an engineer, but have long since moved away from the detailed technical work. I also started a masters in ChemE a long time ago. Decided that there was no point for me. Either go all the way to PhD and R&D work or stick with what I had. I ended up getting an MBA, but not thinking that it would take me up. It was more of a development thing. I agree with what HC said. It is a multiplier. I got alot out of it, but many that were straight out of a Bachelors got very little.

It essence... I would ask yourself what you get out of the whole thing. If you are not interested in management, don't get an MBA. If a masters will really open a door for you to move to something new, then go for it. My feeling is that all masters degrees do not pay...

Trip

benkloepfer

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Joined: Sep 02, 2004
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Posted: Sep 05, 2005 - 05:27 PM

Thanks everybody,

I guess that there is no financial justification for going back for a Master's. If I decide I can afford it then maybe I make the sacrifice and just go back to school for personal gratification. Mechatronics really does interest me but I don't see my current job leading me along that path.
Maybe I'll be able to learn some in my spare time, but the phrase "spare time" almost makes me go into hysterical fits of laughter because I have no spare time (wake, shower, eat, commute, work, commute, play with baby son, eat, talk to wife, study chinese, sleep, wake.....)

Maybe once I'm fluent in chinese I can switch those 20mins of study onto the field of electronics, but somehow it doesn't seem so realistic.

Did you ever feel like you're getting into a rut?

GC
The Ginger Prince

Joined: Dec 01, 2003
Posts: 21544

Posted: Sep 05, 2005 - 05:35 PM

I have a Masters in CIM(Computer Integrated Manufacture) and it was worthwhile at the time but i dont know whether i would have gave up employment to do it. I had the chance a few years later to do my PhD and turned it down for financial reasons, ie, i was working, and now wish i had made a different decision.

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geek

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Posted: Sep 05, 2005 - 07:35 PM

For engineering I always think Master's a waste of time, mainly because I had completed about 1/3 the requirements for a M.Eng while I was an undergraduate and the M.Eng/M.S/Ph.D classes are just more books and exams. So I saw no point in continuing. If you are really interested in a certain specialty, go for a phd, really in-depth learning can only be achieved through intensive research, reading tons of journals and discussing them with peers. If not I think MBA is the way to go. For me (as well as for the many other engineers out there), MBA gives us a lot other options to switch careers, or simply proceed into management grade in our own companies. I think MBA (in good schs) will be rewarding cos you are competing and networking with people who want to get ahead in life. That means a lot.

GC
The Ginger Prince

Joined: Dec 01, 2003
Posts: 21544

Posted: Sep 05, 2005 - 07:39 PM

geek wrote:

But MBA as opposed to an Engineering Masters is only of use if you want to pursue a career in the corporate world.

Personally, when i completed my MSc, it added around £10K onto my salary.

Dr.K

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Posted: Sep 05, 2005 - 07:59 PM

OK, a few thoughts from someone who has a PhD (Chem E) and a US PE (or registered engineer) license. I also started an MBA many moons ago, but was basically disgusted with the calibre of the competition.

First, is the MS worth it? Probably not. If you go full time, you can most likely get Teaching Assistanceships or Research Assistantship positions which should cover tuition, room, and board, or get your employer to pay for you.

Also, be aware that most schools will probably want to give aid to people going after the PhD since it lends prestige and credibility (no to mention to help attract research $$) to the school.

What does the graduate degree give you besides more $$? Basically, it teaches you to be a self-starter, the ability to come up with an original idea, plan the project and report the results.

Do I do anything remotely related to my thesis work? No. Has it been helpful in securing better jobs throughout my career? Yes. Have employers appreciated it? Yes, it lends some instant credibility when dealing with customers (probably more true in Asia, where education is more respected).

MBA degrees are most probably useless. There is a definite pecking order for respect. It goes something like: Corporate Finance, Operations Research, Finance (Gerenral), Accounting, Marketing, and Human Resources. So the most rigorous areas are the best rewarded.

One thing you may want to consider is an Executive MBA. Focuses on the top 3 or 4, and you can complete is less than 3 years part time.

Good luck.

itaye

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Joined: Oct 22, 2004
Posts: 265
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Posted: Sep 05, 2005 - 08:29 PM

fabien.benetou wrote:

Reading Dilbert (or Dogbert in fact here) is equivalent to an MBA ? (Andreas ? :p)

Absolutelity much better! Very Happy

itaye

Reacher

Joined: Oct 22, 2004
Posts: 265
Location: Shanghai
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Posted: Sep 05, 2005 - 08:31 PM

GC wrote:

Personally, when i completed my MSc, it added around £10K onto my salary

In which phase of your career?
Are sure you would have not had the same increase, may be a little later, just because you has grown up?

itaye

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Joined: Oct 22, 2004
Posts: 265
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Posted: Sep 05, 2005 - 08:53 PM

benkloepfer wrote:

This is not a general rule: in same cases an MBA may help.
Typical is the person that always worked in a technical area, and for this reason gets from the (blind) companies only offers for technical position.
After the MBA, he can succesfully apply for any kind of role.
Its like a career-reset.

But mure usually, due to reasons such as:

- high level position are unfortunatelity (and unproductively) assigned much more on the basis of personal relationship then of management skills, even more in China
- most of the Company, especially in Europe, have plenty of overqualified people (not only engineers) that work on tasks much easier then what they could do: why increase the skills?
- the amount of MBA holders is not anynmore that little
- several MBA schools (espcially here in China where MBA schools have landed hunting for expat salaries) are not that good: I will not write namens, but I could do.

the MBA can also not pay back the investment in terms of money.

This is the experience of several friends of mine, and the reason because I've decided, years ago, to save money... Smile

One of them kept the same job afer the MBA and other changed to jobs with similar or equal level and salary.
I was also told the same by an Italian headhunter (I'm from Italy).

I even have 2 friends in Italy that when they have communicated to the company (2 different companies, the 2 guys does not know each other) their intention to apply for an MBA, have encountered a strong opposition by HR, because the company don't want to be "forced" to give to that guy a better position.

But, from a different poin of view, my MBA friends report that the MBA was a very interesting, pleasant, instructive experience, and that it has a valuable network value.

itaye

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Joined: Oct 22, 2004
Posts: 265
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Posted: Sep 05, 2005 - 09:06 PM

benkloepfer wrote:

itaye,
Where did you get your Mechatronics Degree from?

I got it in Milan (Italy), my native city, more then 10 year ago.
Some one will probably say now "that's why".

Actually Italy does not have a good reputation for technoloy.
We are well known for food and fashion, but not technology.

I don't know why.
We are the 4rd producer of precision tooling machines in the world, and the first bigger company in the world for automation technologies is Italian (Comau).
And I could make many more examples including Ferrari and Agusta (helicopters).

In my career, I've always worked and I still work in the engineering.
I'm 39 now, and I have worked with engineers from US (including the very famous MIT), Germany, Japan and and and.

But I never felt that my theoretichal skills were lower then anybody else.
So I think Milan has a very good University (while Turin, another Italian city famous for its technical University, is not that good in my opinion)

BTW, all Chinese engineers I have met have an excellent scholar level.