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wolfy
Fire-eater
Joined: Sep 13, 2004
Posts: 2510
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 Posted:
June 10, 2006 - 01:23 PM |
 
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| Post subject: Christians Persecuted in Shanghai |
28 Christians held in raid on service
http://washingtontimes.com/world/20060609-101456-3685r.htm
SHANGHAI -- Chinese authorities detained 28 Christians in a raid on an unauthorized church service at a private home, an overseas monitoring group said yesterday.
Three members of the nondenominational Protestant congregation, including the host and the presiding minister, still were being held, the Texas-based China Aid Association said. Some of the other Christians were released after paying $200 fines, the group said. |
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Good old English spirit! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MG27BKwjaI |
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Magnolia
Board Biatch
Joined: June 01, 2004
Posts: 31091
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June 10, 2006 - 01:27 PM |
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Without reading the article because I am short on time, aren't such practices/congregations illegal in China without permission from the government?
Hate to say it, but if they are, then the people should have known the risks. |
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BOYCOTT BENSON SALON |
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wolfy
Fire-eater
Joined: Sep 13, 2004
Posts: 2510
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| Posted:
June 10, 2006 - 01:32 PM |
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Isn't China trying to promote some sort of religious freedom at the moment? Shouldn't people be allowed to practise their own religion in peace and in private without having to pay $200 fines? |
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Good old English spirit! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MG27BKwjaI |
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frenchlover1999
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 8730
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June 10, 2006 - 02:30 PM |
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(1) Wolfy, you dont understand that sects, including many Christian or pseudo-Christian sects, are extremely powerful in China. They control many villages, many of them around Shanghai. (2) On the other hand, the Chinese government is the only one, worldwide, that has accepted the Vatican's advice to stop the screening of Da Vinci Code. And yes (2) is related to (1)... the government hopes that promoting a well-known well-managed "open" relegion will help them fight all the underground cults. Think again before posting nonsense. |
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That was no shark. That was my personal submarine. But enough of this polite conversation. What is the purpose of your visit? |
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wolfy
Fire-eater
Joined: Sep 13, 2004
Posts: 2510
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| Posted:
June 10, 2006 - 02:45 PM |
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Look Frogslapper, it's been banned in other countries.
I still think its unfair to prevent people from practising religion when it's not inciting violence or harming anyone.
And as for sects controlling whole villages, pffft. |
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Good old English spirit! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MG27BKwjaI |
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frenchlover1999
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 8730
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June 10, 2006 - 03:23 PM |
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lancesidecar
FooJay
Joined: Jan 07, 2005
Posts: 1631
Location: Hitsville, PRC
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June 10, 2006 - 05:18 PM |
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FL - Interesting theory.
| Quote: |
| 2) On the other hand, the Chinese government is the only one, worldwide, that has accepted the Vatican's advice to stop the screening of Da Vinci Code |
I thought the Chinese Government and the Vatican were at odds right now because CCP appointed a person to head the China Catholic Church without the Vatican's approval. Am I remembering wrong? |
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wolfy
Fire-eater
Joined: Sep 13, 2004
Posts: 2510
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June 10, 2006 - 07:05 PM |
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Yeah, the Church here needs more people like this guy:
http://news.independent.co.uk/people/obituaries/article754409.ece
Archbishop Anthony Li Duan
Chinese Catholic rumoured to be Pope John Paul II's 'secret cardinal'
Published: 10 June 2006
Anthony Li Duan, priest: born Qiu, China 13 June 1927; ordained priest 1951; Archbishop of Xian 1987-2006; died Xian, China 25 May 2006.
Signalling their loyalty to the Pope and the wider Catholic Church is delicate for China's Catholic bishops, who are forced by their government to renounce such ties and to accept government restrictions on their Church. Archbishop Anthony Li Duan's way of doing so was to wear the ring he had been sent by Pope Benedict XVI last year after he and three colleagues from the Catholic Patriotic Association were refused permission by the Chinese government to attend a synod at the Vatican. "This is the ring of my communion with the Pope," he would tell visitors proudly.
All China's Catholic bishops are appointed ostensibly by the Catholic Patriotic Association acting for the local Church, but in reality by the Communist Party. Li - a veteran of 18 years' imprisonment for his faith - accepted consecration as bishop of his native diocese of Xian in April 1987. His relations with local secret bishops who remained loyal to the Vatican (and are often heavily persecuted) were initially tense, yet Li soon developed a rapport with them and gained reconciliation with the Vatican, which approved his appointment.
Although deputy chairman of the Patriotic Church's bishops conference, a body not recognised by the Vatican, Li defiantly rejected what he regarded as unacceptable government restrictions. He refused to take part in the government-controlled consecration of five new bishops in January 2000 against the wishes of the Vatican and ensured that when his eventual successor was consecrated last July he had the approval both of the government and the Vatican. Li also refused to go along with the political campaign against the canonisation of 120 Chinese martyrs in October 2000, and this saw him subjected to renewed interrogations and government pressure.
While he was in hospital last year being treated for liver cancer, Li strongly backed unprecedented street prοtests over the beating of several nuns - allegedly by thugs sent by the Xian government - as they tried to stop the seizure of a church-owned school the city had sold to a property developer. The authorities backed down.
Born in the village of Qiu near Xian in the central Shaanxi province, Li grew up in a staunchly Catholic family. He entered a minor seminary in the Xian diocese in 1938, graduating in 1950, the year after Mao seized power in China. Li's ordination in April 1951 came as persecution of religious communities of all faiths began in earnest.
His first post at the diocesan cathedral came at a time of turmoil, as foreign Catholic clergy were expelled, the government banned all contact with the Vatican and set up its own puppet leadership, soon to be known as the Catholic Patriotic Association. Li was among the many clergy and laypeople to be arrested.
He was imprisoned from 1954 to 1957, rearrested in 1958 after a few months' teaching at the seminary and held until 1960. Li was arrested again in 1966 at the start of the Cultural Revolution, which saw public religious practice all but wiped out by fanatical Red Guards. St Francis Cathedral in Xian was turned into a sweet factory.
As the Cultural Revolution wound down, many religious leaders of a variety of faiths were gradually freed. Li was rehabilitated and released in 1979 and allowed to serve as a parish priest in Lintong, a suburb of Xian.
Li worked hard to re-establish the Church after the savagery of the Cultural Revolution. He rebuilt churches and established social centres in his diocese to meet growing needs in a society divided into the newly rich and the grindingly poor, but religious education remained his priority. Li established the first courses for nuns at Xian seminary in 1997. Even as bishop, he continued to teach canon law and the documents of the Second Vatican Council at the Shaanxi Major Seminary.
Under surveillance by the authorities, Li was also respected by them. Provincial and city leaders visited him in hospital in his final illness. Rumours constantly swirled that he was the secret cardinal named by Pope John Paul II in 2003, but Li always batted away such speculation, saying he had "never received any official confirmation".
Felix Corley |
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Good old English spirit! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MG27BKwjaI |
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Magnolia
Board Biatch
Joined: June 01, 2004
Posts: 31091
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June 10, 2006 - 07:30 PM |
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| wolfy wrote: |
| Isn't China trying to promote some sort of religious freedom at the moment? Shouldn't people be allowed to practise their own religion in peace and in private without having to pay $200 fines? |
whether or not they should be permitted to practice the religion of their choice isn't the discussion... that is something different altogether. since congragation of religious and policitical natures are not currently legal in china, then the fact that the people were fined should not be a surprise. |
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BOYCOTT BENSON SALON |
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frenchlover1999
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 8730
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June 10, 2006 - 07:57 PM |
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This is propaganda. The two news I posted about the US are much more compelling - much larger fines, much bigger restrictions on freedom, etc. Wolfy's news is a non-story. And if he wants to change the law in this country, perhaps he should run for a seat in congress or a top position in the party? |
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That was no shark. That was my personal submarine. But enough of this polite conversation. What is the purpose of your visit? |
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GC
The Ginger Prince
Joined: Dec 01, 2003
Posts: 21544
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| Posted:
June 10, 2006 - 08:22 PM |
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| Post subject: Re: Christians Persecuted in Shanghai |
| wolfy wrote: |
| Three members of the nondenominational Protestant congregation |
WHAT? |
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You turned on the lights, Fuelled U boats by night, That's how you repay us, It's time to go home. |
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frenchlover1999
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 8730
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June 10, 2006 - 08:56 PM |
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Yes, we are talking about evangelical sects here. |
_________________
That was no shark. That was my personal submarine. But enough of this polite conversation. What is the purpose of your visit? |
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frenchlover1999
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 8730
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June 10, 2006 - 08:59 PM |
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The news was that an illegal cult held a meeting, the organizers were detained (I would guess not for very long but the release doesnt say) while some of the attendees (victims) were fined the equivalent of USD 200. As I posted somewhere, this sounds lile Mickey Mouse games compared to the two US news I posted - and many more you can read everyday in the paps. |
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That was no shark. That was my personal submarine. But enough of this polite conversation. What is the purpose of your visit? |
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ich
Reacher
Joined: Apr 13, 2006
Posts: 297
Status: Offline
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June 10, 2006 - 09:00 PM |
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Hey, frenchlover! You could go to watch the football game now! hehe~ |
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frenchlover1999
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 8730
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June 10, 2006 - 09:05 PM |
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I dont watch football! Watching football while drinking beer is a rather gay hobby. Not for me. |
_________________
That was no shark. That was my personal submarine. But enough of this polite conversation. What is the purpose of your visit? |
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lancesidecar
FooJay
Joined: Jan 07, 2005
Posts: 1631
Location: Hitsville, PRC
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June 10, 2006 - 09:26 PM |
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fl - what are your hobbies? |
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frenchlover1999
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 8730
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June 10, 2006 - 09:55 PM |
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Thanks for your interest. Among others and in no particular order: outdoors sports, playing with my kids, reading (on specific subjects I am not going to mention, although I once started a thread about it), adulterous sex, traveling, politics, posting counter-propaganda and educating the masses on the internet. |
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That was no shark. That was my personal submarine. But enough of this polite conversation. What is the purpose of your visit? |
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wolfy
Fire-eater
Joined: Sep 13, 2004
Posts: 2510
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| Posted:
June 11, 2006 - 09:53 AM |
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| Quote: |
[quote="Magnolia"]
| wolfy wrote: |
| Isn't China trying to promote some sort of religious freedom at the moment? Shouldn't people be allowed to practise their own religion in peace and in private without having to pay $200 fines? |
whether or not they should be permitted to practice the religion of their choice isn't the discussion... quote] |
On the contrary, it is the discussion. That's why I started the thread. |
_________________
Good old English spirit! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MG27BKwjaI |
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Magnolia
Board Biatch
Joined: June 01, 2004
Posts: 31091
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| Posted:
June 11, 2006 - 11:27 AM |
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So we should be discussing the legality of congregations in a nation where the legality of such things are already defined?
I believe that as a soveriegn nation, China has the right to determine what they deem acceptable and what they don't. People being fined for breaking the law isn't shocking. It may not be what would happen elsewhere, but it doesn't come as any surprise. It would be nice if people were able to do as they please without santions... but they aren't always able to do so. |
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BOYCOTT BENSON SALON |
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digahole
Rocker
Joined: June 04, 2004
Posts: 778
Location: ultra rich neighborhood
Status: Offline
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June 11, 2006 - 11:43 AM |
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wolfy,
are you simply stupid and naive or you just pretend to be ? ok, let me run a little test on you, can you read : Waco, Texas real loud for three times and then ask yourself what you got ? |
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Paulo
Rocker
Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 615
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
June 11, 2006 - 12:15 PM |
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They deserve it. People, here are bemoaning the application of law. |
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Dave Hedgehog, Richie Rich, Eddie Hitler, Spudgun |
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wolfy
Fire-eater
Joined: Sep 13, 2004
Posts: 2510
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| Posted:
June 11, 2006 - 12:18 PM |
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Here is the law:
The Chinese Constitution specifies that the citizens in China enjoy full freedom in religious belief and that no administrative organs, institutions or individuals can force or forbid conversion to a certain religion, and discrimination, either among adherents of a faith or between the religious people and atheists is prohibited. |
_________________
Good old English spirit! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MG27BKwjaI |
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Magnolia
Board Biatch
Joined: June 01, 2004
Posts: 31091
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June 11, 2006 - 12:19 PM |
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have a check about the law regarding private groups gathering... that is the one that they catch people on. |
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BOYCOTT BENSON SALON |
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wolfy
Fire-eater
Joined: Sep 13, 2004
Posts: 2510
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| Posted:
June 11, 2006 - 12:30 PM |
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I think you mean the law regarding religious cults that utilize religion to undermine social stability, cause injury to the physical and mental health of the people or constitute an obstacle to the country's educational system.
At the end of the day, the Chinese government is discriminating against individuals on account of their religion. Now that is against the law... |
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Good old English spirit! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MG27BKwjaI |
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Magnolia
Board Biatch
Joined: June 01, 2004
Posts: 31091
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June 11, 2006 - 01:10 PM |
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Actually, I mean the laws regarding large groups gathering together without permission. Have no idea how to reference it here but such a law does exisit. While the pracatice may target religious groups, it is still nonetheless the law. Should people chose to practice a religion in small groups, then there isn't much for the government to do regarding that law. |
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BOYCOTT BENSON SALON |
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