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problem with using of "should" and "should ha

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SPP

Rocker

Joined: Nov 08, 2006
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Posted: Sep 19, 2007 - 11:16 AM
Post subject: problem with using of "should" and "should ha

Hi everyone,

I have problem with "should" or "should have" which have bothered me for some time.

You should listen(or be listening") to me when I told you how to do it.

You should have listened to me when I told you how to do it.

Which one is right???

I think the first one should be correct because the action of listening and the action of tolding should have been happening at the same time in the past. Am I right?

Last edited by SPP on May 18, 2008 - 06:50 PM; edited 5 times in total

sbergman

Veejay

Joined: Sep 12, 2007
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Posted: Sep 19, 2007 - 12:15 PM

The second one is right. Depending on the situation, it could also be correct to say "You should listen to me when I tell you how to do it." Your second sentence suggests regret that someone should have done something in the past. My sentence above is advice for the future.

SPP

Rocker

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Posts: 792

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Posted: Sep 19, 2007 - 12:41 PM

Quote:

"You should listen to me when I tell you how to do it."

It is correct of coourse.

In the second sentence " You should have listened to me when I told you how to do it", it suggests listening before telling because we have a "have" and a "when" here.

Same problem here.
You should have killed me when you had the chance.

How could somebody HAVE killed somebody before getting a chance?

That's the problem, that's what I meant.

Any one help me?

SPP

Rocker

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Posted: Sep 19, 2007 - 01:45 PM

O.K.
Here is another example.

(yesterday)
A: I know you can do it. Don't be scared.
B: No. I just can't.

(today)

A: You should have given it a try. But you didn't.(correct of course)
A: You should give it a try even if you don't think you can do it. So don't give up so easily anymore. (correct of course)
A: You should have given it a try before you gave up. But you didn't. (correct of course)

A:You should give it a try WHEN I said you could do it. ??? suggesting trying after saying? (definitely makes sense)

A:You should have given it a try WHEN I said you could do it. ??? suggesting trying before saying? (doesn't make sense)

Which one is correct?

Anyone?

CoffeeHawk_0
Board Buddha

Joined: July 14, 2005
Posts: 14114

Posted: Sep 19, 2007 - 02:42 PM

'Have' implies past tense.

you should try it - sometime in the future, try it
you should have tried it - the verb 'try' is past tense, this implies there was an opportunity in the past to try it and the person did not try it

You should give it a try WHEN I said you could do it. - DOES NOT MAKE SENSE, the tenses don't agree

You should have given it a try WHEN I said you could do it. - THIS IS CORRECT, then tenses agree

Last edited by CoffeeHawk_0 on Sep 19, 2007 - 03:49 PM; edited 1 time in total

SPP

Rocker

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Posted: Sep 19, 2007 - 03:32 PM

Quote:

You should have given it a try WHEN I said you could do it. - THIS IS CORRECT, then tenses agree

Then how can you express the tense that you should have already done something before some point of time in the past?

say

Mom: You should have finished your homework when(/by/before) the dinner was ready yesterday?
(suggestting finishing the homework before the dinner)

Is this sentence correct?
---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------
A: You should have given it a try BEFORE(WHEN) I was angry and had to tell you that you could do it. (suggesting trying before saying)

A: You should have given it a try WHEN I said you could do it.
(suggesting trying after saying)

Same configuration but different tenses?

Anyone got what I mean?

yu888
Board Deity

Joined: Jan 25, 2003
Posts: 17554
Location: ZhongShanParkArea SH

Posted: Sep 19, 2007 - 03:36 PM

You should have finished your homework yesterday, before dinner.

yes different tenses so long as they match, all can work, and sometimes they mean the same too. no wonder its confusing. I should have learned all this tense and grammar stuff back in HighSchool when my brain cells were still active. :S

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LaVecchiaSignora

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Joined: July 24, 2006
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Posted: Sep 19, 2007 - 03:41 PM

That example doesn't make any sense SPP. The before dinner ready yesterday sentence I mean. No one will ever say that as it occured the previous day, mom could've mentioned it after or during dinner on that day.

Anyway, it still is possible. Regarding this sentence you could say; you should have finished your homework (before dinner) yesterday.

Just say, you should have tried it. Forget the given.

Do you have a basic English grammar book?

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SPP

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Posted: Sep 19, 2007 - 03:44 PM

Quote:

I should have learned all this tense and grammar stuff back in HighSchool when my brain cells were still active.

"when my brain cells were still active" is not a point of time in the past. It's a period. So no before or after indicaded.

SPP

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Posted: Sep 19, 2007 - 03:54 PM

Quote:

I mean. No one will ever say that as it occured the previous day, mom could've mentioned it after or during dinner on that day.

How come?
What if Mom mentioned it the next day, which is definitely possible?
And yesterday is a period of time.

LaVecchiaSignora

SuperStar

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Posted: Sep 19, 2007 - 03:56 PM

Do you want argue or do you want answers?
If you know the answer, dont ask the question.

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SPP

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Posted: Sep 19, 2007 - 03:57 PM

Quote:

A: You should have given it a try BEFORE(WHEN) I was angry and had to tell you that you could do it. (suggesting trying before saying)

A: You should have given it a try WHEN I said you could do it.
(suggesting trying after saying)

This is the confusion.

LaVecchiaSignora

SuperStar

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Posted: Sep 19, 2007 - 04:00 PM

Both sentences are not correct.

1st one; You should have tried it when I was angry and told you that you could do it.

2nd one; You should have tried it when I said you could do it.

Both are ok I guess, but you just add one more condition in the first sentence.

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CoffeeHawk_0
Board Buddha

Joined: July 14, 2005
Posts: 14114

Posted: Sep 19, 2007 - 04:00 PM

maybe it makes the way SPP said it, it is just not a common way to express that idea, too many extra words, YU's version is the mose concise, and mother's tend to be concise when they are yelling at their kids Smile

SPP

Rocker

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Posted: Sep 19, 2007 - 04:35 PM

Who cares about common ways or not?

I am asking a serious grammatical question!

Same configuration but being used in different tenses?

Being before the point in the past and being after the point in the past are expressed in the same way?

Last edited by SPP on Sep 19, 2007 - 04:39 PM; edited 1 time in total

LaVecchiaSignora

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Posted: Sep 19, 2007 - 04:37 PM

No one cares.

You're welcome.

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CoffeeHawk_0
Board Buddha

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Posted: Sep 19, 2007 - 04:45 PM

People that you talk to will, you will sound uneducated and pretentious if you speak poorly even if the grammer is correct.

Your original question was regarding "should" or "should have".

'should' is something you need to do, now or in the future.
'should have' is something you needed to do in the past.

Your bonus lesson today is don't over use '!'. It islike shouting and makes the writer seem over excited. It is not common to use '!' when one is implying they are being serious, otherwise it sounds like anger rather than excitment.

CoffeeHawk_0
Board Buddha

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Posts: 14114

Posted: Sep 19, 2007 - 04:46 PM

^see!, you pissed off LaVechia, and she is a kind old woman, she reminds me of my sweet grandmother.

SPP

Rocker

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Posted: Sep 19, 2007 - 05:13 PM

Quote:

should' is something you need to do, now or in the future.
'should have' is something you needed to do in the past.

Then "should have" is used in all the conditions as long as it is in the past, regardless being before or after a certain point of time.
Is that what you mean?

SPP

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Posted: Sep 19, 2007 - 05:19 PM

Quote:

It islike shouting and makes the writer seem over excited. It is not common to use '!' when one is implying they are being serious, otherwise it sounds like anger rather than excitment.

I am as serious as I can be.

CoffeeHawk_0
Board Buddha

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Posts: 14114

Posted: Sep 19, 2007 - 05:26 PM

i'll rephrase your post - "Then "should have" is used as long as it is in the past"

SPP

Rocker

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Posted: Sep 19, 2007 - 06:42 PM

O.K.
Let's see the sentence below.
You shall try it when I tell you can do it.
Is it grammatically correct?

LaVecchiaSignora

SuperStar

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Posted: Sep 19, 2007 - 08:11 PM

Shall shall shall, are you Catholic?

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SPP

Rocker

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Posted: Sep 19, 2007 - 08:45 PM

I assume that it is correct.

The sentense, you should try it when I told you could do it , is also grammatically right, which can perfectly express the meaning that you had an oppotunity to TRY to do something after or at but not before some point of time in the past but didn't.

Can you tell me why people always use the 'should have' form, which indicates 'having succeeded in doing something', to transfer this meaning, which is so confusing that it even doesn't make sense to me.