Airline Safety in Asia
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sbergman
StreetBeater
Joined: Sep 12, 2007
Posts: 2449
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 Posted:
Dec 25, 2007 - 09:26 PM |
 
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| Post subject: Airline Safety in Asia |
I know hc recently got beaten up for posting a news story without commentary but I thought this NYTimes article on discount airlines in Asia might be of general interest especially at this time of year.
Does Low Cost Mean High Risk?
Damas Ardian/Bloomberg News
By JOSHUA KURLANTZICK
Published: December 23, 2007
IN the wake of September’s crash in Phuket of a jet from One-Two-Go Airlines, a Thai low-cost carrier, some aviation experts expressed shock that the plane had even tried to land. Shortly before the jet came down, other aircraft landing on the Thai island had warned traffic controllers of dangerously wet and windy conditions, and the One-Two-Go pilots could have canceled their landing. They didn’t, and more than 80 passengers were killed when the jet skidded beyond the runway and burst into flames.
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If they had followed One-Two-Go’s history, though, observers might not have been shocked by the crash. South Korean and Thai regulators previously had cited One-Two-Go’s parent company for poor safety measures. Worse, the crash revealed one of the biggest worries about travel in Asia today: In a developing region witnessing a boom in the number of low-cost airlines, can tourists trust their lives on these budget carriers?
Once dominated by large airlines like Cathay Pacific and Singapore Airlines, Asia has seen an explosion of low-cost carriers in the past five years. A pioneer, Air Asia, based in Malaysia, demonstrated that the region’s growing middle classes, who couldn’t afford full fare, would pay for cheaper seats.
Following Air Asia’s success, many others have followed, a boom of names like the India-based Air Deccan and Spice Jet and Philippines-based Cebu Pacific. Some low-cost airlines, like Singapore-based Tiger Airways, are even branching out into Australia and other regions. Governments have been happy to oblige, with Thailand allowing an expansion of carriers like One-Two-Go, Bangkok Airways and Nok Air.
The emergence of discount Asian carriers has enormous benefits for travelers. On the popular Bangkok-Singapore corridor, Air Asia is selling some round-trip tickets for about $150, compared with $500 or more on Singapore Airlines. The low-cost airlines have also boosted traffic to destinations like Luang Prabang, the old royal capital of Laos.
According to figures compiled by the international flight information company OAG, the number of low-cost flights in the Asia-Pacific region has grown from 3,900 six years ago to over 60,000 today. “The rapid pace of low-cost carrier expansion is set to continue,” says a report issued by Derek Sadubin, chief operating officer at the Center for Asia Pacific Aviation, another industry analyst. “The projected low-cost carrier fleet growth figures are staggering.”
But explosive growth can also make companies reckless. “Regulators are again concerned that the market has been growing too quickly,” wrote Nicholas Ionides of Flight International, a leading aviation industry publisher. Though many budget carriers have young fleets, some Asian carriers buy old planes that had been sitting, unused, in American deserts; on a Nok Air flight this year from Bangkok to Chiang Mai, what looked like duct tape was holding together seats and parts of the bathroom.
The expansion of low-cost carriers and the boom in travel in India and China create other worrying trends. They have sparked a severe pilot shortage in Asia, which may hurt safety as more inexperienced men and women settle into the cockpit. Meanwhile, some aviation analysts worry that Asian governments, caught in a low-cost frenzy, are allowing businesspeople to start airlines without enough capital on hand. Many Asian nations cannot compare with Western Europe and North America, where carriers like Ryanair and Southwest emerged in markets that already had strong safety standards.
“When the U.S.A. deregulated in the late 1970s and early 1980s, it was feared that it would increase the accident rate,” said David Learmount, a safety expert at Flight International magazine. “But it didn’t. Part of the reason it didn’t was that the Federal Aviation Administration heightened its safety oversight vigilance just in case.”
Southwest, for instance, has a strong safety record, yet in Thailand not only One-Two-Go but also the low-cost carrier Phuket Air have come under scrutiny. Phuket Air overshot a runway landing in eastern Thailand. Before taking off to Britain in 2005, passengers reportedly saw fuel leaking out of a Phuket Air plane and refused to fly on it. In 2006 Phuket Air was banned from flying into the European Union. (It was reinstated earlier this year.)
“Deregulation in Indonesia made already bad safety records even worse because the aviation authorities had no teeth, so there was no safety oversight to protect travelers,” Mr. Learmount said.
Indeed, Indonesia may be the scariest nation in Asia for fliers. In the past three years alone, a plane from Adam Air, an Indonesian low-cost carrier, vanished without a trace; another Adam Air plane cracked open upon landing; a Garuda Indonesia flight overran the runway in Yogyakarta and caught fire, killing at least 20; and an aircraft of Lion Air, another discount airline, went off a runway on Java, killing about 30.
Smart travelers are learning how to find solid information about Asia’s new airlines. The Aviation Safety Network (www.aviation-safety.net) contains statistics on air accidents broken down by carrier and region, as well as weekly updates of air safety incidents. Other Web sites like www.airsafe.com have similar data on incidents; www.airlinequality.com offers passengers’ takes on many budget carriers.
Government regulators outside Asia can also help. The International Aviation Safety Assessments program of the F.A.A. (www.faa.gov/safety/programs_initiatives/oversight/iasa) contains ratings of each nation’s air safety, while the European Union maintains a blacklist of airlines (www.ec.europa.eu/transport/air-ban/pdf/list_en.pdf) that are banned from flying into Europe. Currently, the European Union bans every Indonesian carrier.
Eventually, the opinions of foreign visitors may force Asian airlines to improve. “Watch Korea and Taiwan; their safety oversight was rubbish not long ago, but now it’s good,” Mr. Learmount said. “Korean Air lost its right to code-share with U.S. carriers — notably Delta — until it set up a credible safety management system.”
“The driving force” for safer planes is “competition itself,” he says. “People in the U.S. don’t fly with airlines that keep crashing.” |
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yinlin
Rocker
Joined: Feb 26, 2007
Posts: 643
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Dec 25, 2007 - 10:01 PM |
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everybody doesnt fly with problem airlines but not only US citizen.
I can name easily a few of budget airlines with better flying records in Asia but sometimes it also depends where the mother company of the budget airline is located as different country might have different air policy in governing their airlines even though they have to fulfill IATA requirements, my 2 cents. |
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jzzzzzzz
StreetBeater
Joined: July 07, 2006
Posts: 2300
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Jan 04, 2008 - 02:00 PM |
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I've just come back from a trip to Cebu in the Phillipines with Cebu Pacific Air. I had to change in Manilla so 2 flights there and 2 flights back. The Shanghai to Manila flight was delayed by 2 hours and I missed my connection. They put us on the next flight without a fuss. This new flight was then delayed for about 90 minutes.
Our flight yesterday from Cebu to Manila was delayed for an hour but amazingly the Manila to Shanghai flight was on time and landed at PVG 20 minutes early!
The aircraft were new and the service good. It's standard budget airline service so you have to buy snacks/drinks.
I'm not sure if they have a general problem with delays though. While I was waiting for the Cebu-Manila flight yesterday another Cebu Pacific flight boarded, waited on the tarmac for a while, offloaded it's passengers and was cancelled! They did give people a voucher for a rescheduled flight which is more than you would get from Ryanair in Europe!
When I booked my flights you had to book two separate flights but they have improved the booking engine now so you can book the connecting flight together.
We were not able to check our luggage through on the outbound journey so had to collect it at Manila and handcarry it to the domestic terminal (via shuttle bus). On the return we were able to check in for both flights in Cebu and check the luggage through to PVG.
Cebu was a really nice place to spend the New Year. Feeling cold back in Shanghai. |
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Kiwi
Board Lord
Joined: May 07, 2003
Posts: 5254
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Jan 04, 2008 - 02:14 PM |
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But did you get back alive? |
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Rhum and Voodoo |
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jzzzzzzz
StreetBeater
Joined: July 07, 2006
Posts: 2300
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Jan 04, 2008 - 02:42 PM |
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Yes, the flight was comfortable and all landings smooth. On Airline Quality the problems seem to be more the kind I experienced. Frequent delays and chaotic check in procedures. Luckily we were checked through on the return as the Cebu Pacific check in area in Manila looked like a complete joke. |
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Me_Again
Raver
Joined: Dec 06, 2005
Posts: 390
Location: Lost
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Jan 04, 2008 - 05:24 PM |
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From the NY Times 'eh? More American "news" trash.
The reality is that airlines all over the world are looking to cut costs, including those in developed western countries. Asia not really different from other places such as Russia, Eastern Europe, Latin America etc....Give it a few year and we can add the USA to the list as their economy goes bust.
Statistically though, air travel is still very safe, and most crashes occur because of human error. |
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Adrienne
FooJay
Joined: Mar 01, 2003
Posts: 1708
Location: Shanghai, China
Status: Offline
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Jan 04, 2008 - 06:21 PM |
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sberman. many thanks for posting this. the main thing i got out if was the two sites that you can check passenger's reports on airlines. much prefer to read their feedack.
Adrienne
http://www.shanghaiprops.com |
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Kiwi
Board Lord
Joined: May 07, 2003
Posts: 5254
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Jan 04, 2008 - 07:11 PM |
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You should hear about the time I flew a Chinese airline and the passengers had to land the plane themselves! Turned out the CEO of the airline was letting his precocious 11 year old nephew fly some of the quieter routes. I know it sounds crazy but I think he was trying to cut costs or something. The problem was that the boy had ADD, drank about a gallon of Fanta , and forgot to take his Ritalin. What were the dumb air hostesses thinking? I wonder about Chinese people sometimes. So we have this out of control Chinese boy bouncing off the walls of an aircraft which is rapidly plummeting earthwards, and the crew are racing around asking if there is a pilot on board. Only in Asia, eh? "This is China" I kept telling myself as I took deep breaths. Well they couldn't find a civilian pilot but they did find an alcoholic fighter pilot who hadn't touched the controls of an aircraft since the Vietcong tortured his buddy some years previously. Great guy but a bit of an oddball. For a while there I was wondering if we were going to make it. Of course as usually happens in China everything worked out in the end. Really though it was all so unprofessional. |
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Rhum and Voodoo |
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leidelaohu
Board Royalty
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 7200
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Jan 04, 2008 - 07:35 PM |
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^^^ heh heh heh
You're just blowing a lot of smoke trying to keep people from noticing that Air China (PR China) has an excellent safety record while China Air (ROC) has one of the worst ...  |
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Stark
Reacher
Joined: Mar 19, 2006
Posts: 303
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Jan 04, 2008 - 08:29 PM |
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Kiwi, that was brilliant. You write like Tom Robbins. |
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shanghaiceltic
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 20, 2005
Posts: 8337
Location: Perth WA
Status: Offline
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Jan 07, 2008 - 01:49 PM |
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When you are sitting in your airline seat just remember just about everything around you has been bought from the lowest bidder.
I worked with supplying spare parts for aircraft engines with a previous company and the scariest thing we had to deal with was some equipment sent back for repair.
When the serial numbers were checked on each item they turned out to have come from a pair of aircraft engines that were part of a plane that crashed in Columbia in South America.
The engines dissapeared when they were being sent to Bogota with the rest of the aircraft for the aircraft accident investigators to check.
The parts from those engines turned up all over the world with false documentation and it would appear some were used by some third world countries national airlines.
Flight International once made the comment about Indonesian airlines that they replace by attrition rather than wear and tear. |
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SnappySammy
Board Buddha
Joined: Nov 01, 2007
Posts: 15136
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Jan 08, 2008 - 12:39 AM |
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| jzzzzzzz wrote: |
| Yes, the flight was comfortable and all landings smooth. On Airline Quality the problems seem to be more the kind I experienced. Frequent delays and chaotic check in procedures. Luckily we were checked through on the return as the Cebu Pacific check in area in Manila looked like a complete joke. |
I flew the same airline> I was a little concerned at check in when they asked for dental records instead of photo ID |
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stray_tachyon
Barker
Joined: Apr 19, 2006
Posts: 139
Status: Offline
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Dec 09, 2008 - 12:04 AM |
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| Kiwi wrote: |
| But did you get back alive? |
duh!!! |
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Andreas
Board Legend
Joined: Feb 27, 2004
Posts: 10156
Location: s/v Waratah
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Dec 09, 2008 - 12:17 AM |
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Good question though, because a lot of people here are dead and they did not realize yet, and nobody could be bothered to tell them. I have a few hundred working for me. Talking about fun  |
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Time is the very substance of life; its golden minutes are the only stones we have with which to build. That spiritual building, not made with hands. |
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Renovator
FooJay
Joined: Apr 18, 2007
Posts: 1634
Location: Century Park & MA,USA
Status: Offline
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Dec 09, 2008 - 01:38 AM |
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Me_Again
| Quote: |
Statistically though, air travel is still very safe, and most crashes occur because of human error. |
What is interesting to those of us that fly airplanes and read NTSB airplane crash reports and excerpts is that it is very rare that a crash occurs because of one single error, be it mechanical or human error. A crash is the result of a series, usually at least three, errors or problems occuring at the same time. The report normally states a primary problem that caused a crash followed by contributing errors, problems and factors. Every pilot knows this so vigilence in the cockpit is dramatically augumented anytime there is one or more problem or error.
With the technologies installed in airplanes today to fly and land these crafts, the pilot workload has decreased significantly over the years making for safer flights. Everything from situational awareness computers to onboard sophisticated weather reporting makes flights much safer today than just a couple of decades ago. Pilot training, retraining and simulators have also come a long way to help in this effort.
The problem with low time pilots is that they are more apt to make an error in judgement than more senior pilots. Judgement is mostly what separates a good pilot from a mediocre one. And judgement in unusual avaiation situations takes time to develop. |
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Zak101
FooJay
Joined: Jan 20, 2003
Posts: 1605
Location: 苏州 Suzhou
Status: Offline
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Dec 09, 2008 - 02:39 PM |
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I see OK Air suspended several flights in Tianjin in the past few days because they couldn't pay to have the aircraft refuelled.
Can't pay for the fuel eh ?
And what about the maintenance budget ?
OK, I Guess that's Not-OK Air. |
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Last edited by Zak101 on Dec 09, 2008 - 11:40 PM; edited 1 time in total |
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jzzzzzzz
StreetBeater
Joined: July 07, 2006
Posts: 2300
Status: Offline
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Dec 09, 2008 - 03:07 PM |
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Whch cruel bastard bumped this thread?! Just reminded me how I spent last Christmas and New Year in the sunshine. This year I have freezing my balls off in the UK, then freezing my balls off in Haerbin!
At least I'll get some real ale in the UK! |
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leidelaohu
Board Royalty
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 7200
Status: Offline
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Dec 09, 2008 - 03:46 PM |
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| Renovator wrote: |
| The problem with low time pilots is that they are more apt to make an error in judgement than more senior pilots. Judgement is mostly what separates a good pilot from a mediocre one. |
One of those catch-22's ... to survive a bad situation you need experience. How do you get experience ? By surviving bad situations  |
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Renovator
FooJay
Joined: Apr 18, 2007
Posts: 1634
Location: Century Park & MA,USA
Status: Offline
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Dec 09, 2008 - 11:00 PM |
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| leidelaohu wrote: |
| Renovator wrote: |
| The problem with low time pilots is that they are more apt to make an error in judgement than more senior pilots. Judgement is mostly what separates a good pilot from a mediocre one. |
One of those catch-22's ... to survive a bad situation you need experience. How do you get experience ? By surviving bad situations |
Fortunately, most of the high risk situations happen in the first 4000-5000 hours of pilot in command time. Often in single engine aircraft (pushed to their limits), flying cargo, checks or other commercial runs at night in foul weather while building up flight hours. Usually these are single pilot or pilot/copilot missions. The few life threatening close calls that happen during this period, are remembered by any pilot during their entire flying career.
There is a saying among pilots that there are bold pilots and there are old pilots but there are no old bold pilots. By the time a pilot starts flying the large aircraft with many passengers aboard, they have usually survived a few of these situations.
Unfortunately, as airlines in Asia are craving new pilots all the time, pilots trained mostly in simulators make for mechanically great pilots, but nothing in the simulator is remembered like a close call on a commercial run where you were lucky to come out of it alive. |
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Zak101
FooJay
Joined: Jan 20, 2003
Posts: 1605
Location: 苏州 Suzhou
Status: Offline
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Dec 10, 2008 - 12:15 AM |
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Near had a 180% roll over in a Hercules C-130H years ago in the Australian Air Force due to windshear at Laverton, Victoria (AUS) on landing approach and bad ATC advice, clear weather, sunset .
Lined up, and oopsie.... WTF ? 3 km out and no roll out clear, we're varying, significantly. Way off line, and dropping too fast. I Call it. He calls it.
Potential "Go around', "Abort". NOW. "Sir". We did an an immediate 110% power round circuit, 200 km to do a re-approach over Geelong and re-land at Laverton.
I didn't crave a simulator then.
Now that's safe for our passengers and ME.
Z. |
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The luckiest guy in China ! http://lucky-jamieson.com Try your luck. |
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rickettyrabbit
LoopKicker
Joined: Sep 30, 2009
Posts: 825
Location: Minhang District
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Nov 26, 2009 - 08:15 AM |
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Wow, interesting old thread.
There's a serious flaw in the theory that the market will discipline airlines into operating safely. That flaw is asymmetrical risk -- the passengers risk death, while those who operate unsafe airlines risk only bankruptcy. I am certain there are airline executives who will risk MY life in order to increase THEIR profits.
Wabbit |
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Shangstar
Low Seater
Joined: Feb 07, 2008
Posts: 3398
Location: Spitland
Status: Offline
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Dec 28, 2009 - 10:45 PM |
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According to BBC News, the father of the Nigerian who attempted to blow up the Delta airliner whilst approaching Detroit had emailed US authorities to warn them about his son's extreme anti American views. This man happened to be a very wealthy banker.
You can imagine the email arriving at the US Government's offices:
Good afternoon, I am a wealthy Nigerian banker.... |
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The Vatican is against surrogate mothers. Good thing they didn't have that rule when Jesus was born... |
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Renovator
FooJay
Joined: Apr 18, 2007
Posts: 1634
Location: Century Park & MA,USA
Status: Offline
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Dec 28, 2009 - 10:57 PM |
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The Nigerian kid was on an international watch list of 500,000 or so individuals that are likely threats to the US. The TSA, however, is too busy making sure that the rest of the millions of us spend the last hour of our flights with no access to carry on, not able to use bathrooms, submit to extra pat downs at security check points and other stupid measures so TSA can continue to look busy rather than actually address the problem. Maybe if TSA spent less time doing a dog and pony show for the good guys, they would have plenty of time to review the fliers that can actually pose a security threat. |
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leidelaohu
Board Royalty
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 7200
Status: Offline
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Dec 28, 2009 - 11:09 PM |
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| Shangstar wrote: |
You can imagine the email arriving at the US Government's offices:
Good afternoon, I am a wealthy Nigerian banker.... |
You get the prize, Shang. Funniest post I've seen in weeks |
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Zak101
FooJay
Joined: Jan 20, 2003
Posts: 1605
Location: 苏州 Suzhou
Status: Offline
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Dec 28, 2009 - 11:22 PM |
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At least the Dutch Laowai guy primarily and other passengers and crew tackled the fker.
I can visualise the scene, and it wouldn't be nice. |
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The luckiest guy in China ! http://lucky-jamieson.com Try your luck. |
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