10 Things about t¡bet, not being said in the west.
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pixelpunter
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 Posted:
Apr 24, 2008 - 11:45 PM |
 
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| Post subject: 10 Things about t¡bet, not being said in the west. |
BlackAdder's 'cut-and-paste' facts about t¡bet, with references.
Pre-1950, five da1a¡ Lamas were murdered.
Over the centuries the da1a¡ 1ama destroyed all religious writing that contradicted his divinity. Stuart Gelder and Roma Gelder, The Timely Rain: Travels in New t¡bet (New York: Monthly Review Press, 1964)
Old t¡bet had a professional army, albeit a small one, that served as a gendarmerie for the landlords to keep order and catch runaway serfs. Anna Louise Strong, t¡betan Interviews (Peking: New World Press, 1929)
Young t¡betan boys were regularly taken from their families and brought into the monasteries to be trained as monks. Once there, they became bonded for life. Tashì-Tsering, a monk, reports that it was common practice for peasant children to be sexually mistreated in the monasteries. He himself was a victim of repeated childhood rape not long after he was taken into the monastery at age nine. Melvyn Goldstein, William Siebenschuh, and Tashì-Tsering, The Struggle for Modern t¡bet: The Autobiography of Tashì-Tsering (Armonk, N.Y.: M.E. Sharpe, 1997).
In 1953, the greater part of the rural population -- some 700,000 of an estimated total population of 1,250,000 -- were serfs. Tied to the land, they were allotted only a small parcel to grow their own food. Serfs and other peasants generally went without schooling or medical care. They spent most of their time laboring for the monasteries and individual high-ranking lamas, or for a secular aristocracy that numbered not more than 200 wealthy families. In effect, they were owned by their masters who told them what crops to grow and what animals to raise. They could not get married without the consent of their lord or 1ama. A serf might easily be separated from his family should the owner send him to work in a distant location. Serfs could be sold by their masters, or subjected to torture and death. Anna Louise Strong, t¡betan Interviews (Peking: New World Press, 1929)
The common people labored under the twin burdens of the corvée (forced unpaid labor on behalf of the lord) and onerous tithes. They were taxed upon getting married, taxed for the birth of each child, and for every death in the family. They were taxed for planting a new tree in their yard, for keeping domestic or barnyard animals, for owning a flower pot, or putting a bell on an animal. There were taxes for religious festivals, for singing, dancing, drumming, and bell ringing. People were taxed for being sent to prison and upon being released. Even beggars were taxed. Those who could not find work were taxed for being unemployed, and if they traveled to another village in search of work, they paid a passage tax. When people could not pay, the monasteries lent them money at 20 to 50 percent interest. Some debts were handed down from father to son to grandson. Debtors who could not meet their obligations risked being placed into slavery for as long as the monastery demanded, sometimes for the rest of their lives. Stuart Gelder and Roma Gelder, The Timely Rain: Travels in New t¡bet (New York: Monthly Review Press, 1964)
In the da1a¡ 1ama's t¡bet, torture and mutilation -- including eye gouging, the pulling out of tongues, hamstringing, and amputation of arms and legs -- were favored punishments inflicted upon thieves, runaway serfs, and other "criminals." Journeying through t¡bet in the 1960s, Stuart and Roma Gelder interviewed a former serf, Tsereh Wang Tuei, who had stolen two sheep belonging to a monastery. For this he had both his eyes gouged out and his hand mutilated beyond use. He explains that he no longer is a Buddhist: "When a holy 1ama told them to blind me I thought there was no good in religion." Some Western visitors to Old t¡bet remarked on the number of amputees to be seen. Since it was against Buddhist teachings to take human life, some offenders were severely lashed and then "left to God" in the freezing night to die. "The parallels between t¡bet and medieval Europe are striking," concludes Tom Grunfeld in his book on t¡bet. Some monasteries had their own private prisons, reports Anna Louise Strong. In 1959, she visited an exhibition of torture equipment that had been used by the t¡betan overlords. There were handcuffs of all sizes, including small ones for children, and instruments for cutting off noses and ears, and breaking off hands. For gouging out eyes, there was a special stone cap with two holes in it that was pressed down over the head so that the eyes bulged out through the holes and could be more readily torn out. There were instruments for slicing off kneecaps and heels, or hamstringing legs. There were hot brands, whips, and special implements for disemboweling. The exhibition presented photographs and testimonies of victims who had been blinded or crippled or suffered amputations for thievery. There was the shepherd whose master owed him a reimbursement in yuan and wheat but refused to pay. So he took one of the master's cows; for this he had his hands severed. Another herdsman, who opposed having his wife taken from him by his lord, had his hands broken off. There were pictures of Communist activists with noses and upper lips cut off, and a woman who was raped and then had her nose sliced away.
Theocratic despotism had been the rule for generations. An English visitor to t¡bet in 1895, Dr. A. L. Waddell, wrote that the t¡betan people were under the "intolerable tyranny of monks" and the devil superstitions they had fashioned to terrorize the people. In 1904 Perceval Landon described the da1a¡ 1ama's rule as "an engine of oppression" and "a barrier to all human improvement." At about that time, another English traveler, Captain W.F.T. O'Connor, observed that "the great landowners and the priests . . . exercise each in their own dominion a despotic power from which there is no appeal," while the people are "oppressed by the most monstrous growth of monasticism and priest-craft the world has ever seen." t¡betan rulers, like those of Europe during the Middle Ages, "forged innumerable weapons of servitude, invented degrading legends and stimulated a spirit of superstition" among the common people. In 1937, another visitor, Spencer Chapman, wrote, "The Lamaist monk does not spend his time in ministering to the people or educating them, nor do laymen take part in or even attend the monastery services. The beggar beside the road is nothing to the monk. Knowledge is the jealously guarded prerogative of the monasteries and is used to increase their influence and wealth.
The Chinese Communists occupied t¡bet in 1951, claiming suzerainty over that country. The 1951 treaty provided for ostensible self-government under the da1a¡ 1ama's rule but gave China military control and exclusive right to conduct foreign relations. The Chinese were also granted a direct role in internal administration "to promote social reforms." At first, they moved slowly, relying mostly on persuasion in an attempt to effect change. Among the earliest reforms they wrought was to reduce usurious interest rates, and build some hospitals and roads. Mao Zedung and his Communist cadres did not simply want to occupy t¡bet. They desired the da1a¡ 1ama's cooperation in transforming t¡bet's feudal economy in accordance with socialist goals. Even Melvyn Goldstein, who is sympathetic to the da1a¡ 1ama and the cause of t¡betan independence, allows that "contrary to popular belief in the West," the Chinese "pursued a policy of moderation." They took care "to show respect for t¡betan culture and religion" and "allowed the old feudal and monastic systems to continue unchanged. Between 1951 and 1959, not only was no aristocratic or monastic property confiscated, but feudal lords were permitted to exercise continued judicial authority over their hereditarily bound peasants." As late as 1957, Mao Zedung was trying to salvage his gradualist policy. He reduced the number of Chinese cadre and troops in t¡bet and promised the da1a¡ 1ama in writing that China would not implement land reforms in t¡bet for the next six years or even longer if conditions were not yet ripe. Goldstein, The Snow Lion and the Dragon.
In 1956-57, armed t¡betan bands ambushed convoys of the Chinese Peoples Liberation Army (PLA). The uprising received extensive material support from the CIA, including arms, supplies, and military training for t¡betan commando units. It is a matter of public knowledge that the CIA set up support camps in Nepal, carried out numerous airlifts, and conducted guerrilla operations inside t¡bet. Meanwhile in the United States, the American Society for a Free Asia, a CIA front, energetically publicized the cause of t¡betan resistance. The da1a¡ 1ama's eldest brother, Thubtan Norbu, played an active role in that group. Many of the t¡betan commandos and agents whom the CIA dropped into the country were chiefs of aristocratic clans or the sons of chiefs. Ninety percent of them were never heard from again, according to a report from the CIA itself. The small and thinly spread PLA garrisons in t¡bet could not have captured them all. The PLA must have received support from t¡betans who did not sympathize with the uprising. This suggests that the resistance had a rather narrow base within t¡bet. "Many lamas and lay members of the elite and much of the t¡betan army joined the uprising, but in the main the populace did not, assuring its failure," writes Hugh Deane. In their book on t¡bet, Ginsburg and Mathos reach a similar conclusion: "The t¡betan insurgents never succeeded in mustering into their ranks even a large fraction of the population at hand, to say nothing of a majority. As far as can be ascertained, the great bulk of the common people of Lhasa and of the adjoining countryside failed to join in the fighting against the Chinese both when it first began and as it progressed." Eventually the resistance crumbled. Hugh Deane, "The Cold War in t¡bet," Covert Action Quarterly (Winter 1987), Kenneth Conboy and James Morrison, The CIA's Secret War in t¡bet (Lawrence, Kansas: University of Kansas Press, 2002), William Leary, "Secret Mission to t¡bet," Air & Space, December 1997/January 1998. |
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*CheerLeader*Mao
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Apr 25, 2008 - 12:42 AM |
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So what's your point? 99.9% of what is written here could be written about just about any society that ever existed.
So if you are somehow trying to justify China's occupation and control of t¡bet and the extinguishing of its religion and culture then one could easily make a much stronger case for occupying China and extinguishing its culture and people without any doubt.
As well as England, most of Europe, North American Indians, half of Africa and the middle east. |
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findus
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Apr 25, 2008 - 01:40 AM |
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"t¡betans were bad.
DL was bad.
t¡bet was poor.
Therefore it was liberation, not invasion."
Right? |
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yu888
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Apr 25, 2008 - 02:05 AM |
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I think the point seems to be that none of these facts are common knowledge to many of those who do not realise they are behaving like lemmings. Its one thing to know this and then choose to support or not support T1bets cause , much like many an idiot in the US sometimes "longs for the 50's style living" without all the facts . Its human nature to get emotionally attached to an overall cause without seeing all the facts. |
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Cambronne
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Apr 25, 2008 - 02:35 AM |
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| Quote: |
99.9% of what is written here could be written about just about any society that ever existed.
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Yes, but at least 800 years ago... |
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oh_the_darkness
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Apr 25, 2008 - 06:05 AM |
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| *CheerLeader*Mao wrote: |
So what's your point? 99.9% of what is written here could be written about just about any society that ever existed.
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Yeah.
In the Dark Ages perhaps.
| *CheerLeader*Mao wrote: |
| So if you are somehow trying to justify China's control of tĦbet and the extinguishing of its religion... |
Any extinguishing of any religion sounds like a great plan to me.
When can we do this to The Vatican?
I am sick to death of these fashion prοtesters trying to 'save' t¡bet.....
Where were you in 2001? |
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pixelpunter
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Apr 25, 2008 - 09:20 AM |
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| *CheerLeader*Mao wrote: |
So what's your point? 99.9% of what is written here could be written about just about any society that ever existed.
So if you are somehow trying to justify China's occupation and control of tĦbet and the extinguishing of its religion and culture then one could easily make a much stronger case for occupying China and extinguishing its culture and people without any doubt.
As well as England, most of Europe, North American Indians, half of Africa and the middle east. |
The point is that there is this misconception that t¡bet was this wonderful, peaceful shangri-la with a peaceful existence, but in truth, it wasn't. The whole "free t¡bet" "free t¡bet" chant, free t¡bet from whom and return it to who?
The da1a¡ 1ama left t¡bet 50-years a go. The da1a¡ 1ama is now 70. You watch on the news and see all these people campaigning for a free t¡bet, and most of them are foreigners imposing their beliefs on others, or young t¡betans who never actually lived in a t¡bet ruled by the Lamas.
China's no angel, but they did implement education for all, something which the monasteries kept from the general population, built hospitals, scientific research facilities, roads, electricity, they modernised t¡bet. They don't impose their one child policy in t¡bet, which is the opposite of genocide if you ask me, and despite all the claims of the Chinese going around killing t¡betans, their population has doubled in China over the last 50-years.
As for extinguishing the culture, if your previous culture included serfdom, theocracy and slavery, yes, China has extinguished that. China has been modernizing t¡bet rapidly over the last 50-years, as it has been modernising itself. The conflict between people romanticizing the past and modernisation, exists everywhere, in the West we call this gentrification, it happens in cities between suburbs, where traditional residential suburbs are in fluxed by young tenants and there's a conflict of interest. The conflict of t¡bet is the monks who hark for days of old where they ruled supreme, where monasteries had mass amounts of land and serfs to work they're land and they could tax them how they wanted to, they are the ones resentful. As for the argument that the Han Chinese are moving into t¡bet, it's a simple mass equation, currently less than 1% of China's population are occupying around about 24% of China's land mass, in nature the theory of pressure dictates high pressure will always move toward low pressure, hence in civilisation, under populated areas, will eventually be populated. |
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pixelpunter
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| Posted:
Apr 25, 2008 - 09:22 AM |
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| yu888 wrote: |
| I think the point seems to be that none of these facts are common knowledge to many of those who do not realise they are behaving like lemmings. Its one thing to know this and then choose to support or not support T1bets cause , much like many an idiot in the US sometimes "longs for the 50's style living" without all the facts . Its human nature to get emotionally attached to an overall cause without seeing all the facts. |
Thank-you! that's exactly what I'm getting at. Support whichever side you want, I myself have not truly made up my mind, but I'm sick of others trying to tell me who's side I should be on and guilting me for wanting to decide for myself |
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skyline5k
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Apr 25, 2008 - 09:39 AM |
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Agreed. If t¡bet were freed, I don't see them returning to that society, but more likely succumbing to the West's ideals of what t¡bet should be in the eyes of the prοtesters. Or it'll be forgotten eventually. prοtesters would simply move on to something else. Free [some other oppressed region]!!! The Basque? Palestine? |
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yu888
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Apr 25, 2008 - 09:43 AM |
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p1atl10
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Apr 25, 2008 - 09:48 AM |
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^ XXXOOO!!! |
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skyline5k
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Apr 25, 2008 - 09:48 AM |
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Can you imagine if t¡bet were freed? All the prοtesters running around proud, saying, "I Helped Free them with my trusty fire extinguisher/by pushing over a girl in a wheelchair/by listening to Bjork, Mike D (Beastie Boys).../by editing the Wikipedia to conform to my beliefs..." |
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Kiwi
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Apr 25, 2008 - 09:50 AM |
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| pixelpunter wrote: |
| As for the argument that the Han Chinese are moving into tĦbet, it's a simple mass equation, currently less than 1% of China's population are occupying around about 24% of China's land mass, in nature the theory of pressure dictates high pressure will always move toward low pressure, hence in civilisation, under populated areas, will eventually be populated. |
I'd say it was more like colonization.
Look at Yunnan for an example of where t¡bet is headed. The Ming colonized Yunnan (completely non-Chinese at the time), had problems dealing with the restless population, and hit on the idea of shipping Chinese settlers in there to change the demographics.
The result of that? Nobody wears 'Free Yunnan' t-shirts. |
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hc
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Apr 25, 2008 - 09:52 AM |
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oh_the_darkness
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Apr 25, 2008 - 09:55 AM |
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I am starting a prοtest group to FREE XUJIAHUI because for too long now innocent Xujiahuians have been oppressed by the French Concession which is why I'm boycotting carrefour.
**** the Frogs!!!!! |
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skyline5k
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Apr 25, 2008 - 09:57 AM |
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Would that include the little resort area called Xin Tian Di? Who would we rescue them from? |
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oh_the_darkness
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Apr 25, 2008 - 10:01 AM |
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From The White Boys In Suits.
For too long TWBIS have been torturing and imprisoning innocent XinTianDiians and it is time to act NOW!!!!! |
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Kiwi
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Apr 25, 2008 - 10:02 AM |
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Not always a bad thing HC, but usually ugly at times.
The irony for me is that the majority of Chinese genuinely believe their country is somehow unique in the world as a non-colonialist, non-imperial, peace loving power. The irony of their national borders mostly coinciding with a defunct Manchurian empire is completely lost on them.
When the majority of Chinese develop a little insight I'll start respecting them a whole lot more. |
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oh_the_darkness
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Apr 25, 2008 - 10:07 AM |
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I'll start respecting them more when they stop pushing me around on the subway. |
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hc
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Apr 25, 2008 - 10:08 AM |
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"The irony for me is that the majority of Chinese genuinely believe their country is somehow unique in the world as a non-colonialist, non-imperial, peace loving power. The irony of their national borders mostly coinciding with a defunct Manchurian empire is completely lost on them. "
I think that's the crux of the matter for most of these problems actually: we KNOW that their education is different, we KNOW that they relate to the past in different manner, we KNOW that their definition of TIME is different, we know all these things but we continue to deal with them like if they had the exact same values.
Expect them to change won't happen in a lifetime but the West has clarity on its side and the ability of being flexible in its approach. So, why face them the exact way you are not supposed to? Isn't the goal to solve all that shiat and move on (disputable goal actually).
That's what I think is so frustrating.
Unnecessary friction. Like feces if you don't have fiber in your diet (I had to include a reference to feces somewhere!). |
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*CheerLeader*Mao
Post Roaster
Joined: July 07, 2004
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| Posted:
Apr 25, 2008 - 12:54 PM |
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| oh_the_darkness wrote: |
| *CheerLeader*Mao wrote: |
So what's your point? 99.9% of what is written here could be written about just about any society that ever existed.
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Yeah.
In the Dark Ages perhaps. |
No I am talking about modern history of China, the Cultural Revolution, The Red Guards, making 1 Billion uneducated serfs out of the population of which 900million live under the same conditions all for the benefit of Chairman Mao the Gang of Four and those gov't officals under them. As they still do today. Tiananmen Square, thousands of smaller incidents, education control and media control the list could probably go on forever, but that is not the point. The point is that if you use the arguments PixelPunter presented above then you can justify the occupation of any land and peoples, especially China.
Australia did this very successfully with the Aborignals (the PM did say sorry now). How many people really know how the aboriginals truly lived before they coming of white settlers to the country. How extensive the sexual abuse, pedophilia. They didn't even have schools? Can you imagine the horror. They also had they own creation stories beliefs and religion. They must have hated life and just couldn't wait to be liberated and stolen from their families and had their land taken over. But now they have canned food and can speak English, it must be so wonderful for them.
What comments like PixelPunters do is impose her (or others) views on what a society should be onto others to justify the occupation and control of their land and people. Is this right?
Chinese brought education for everyone in t¡bet? Hahhahaa, yeah, how worthwhile has that been. So you feel that a religious and spiritual based society should be educating its people in anything other than prayer and its spiritual beliefs? Why would it when the foundation of its society was nothing of the sort.
Having your opinions and debating them is one thing, its a natural process to development. Imposing your views of what a society and culture that has developed vastly different from your own and then controlling it and under military threats and fear is sick and pathetic.
| *CheerLeader*Mao wrote: |
| So if you are somehow trying to justify China's control of tĦbet and the extinguishing of its religion... |
Any extinguishing of any religion sounds like a great plan to me.
When can we do this to The Vatican?
I am sick to death of these fashion prοtesters trying to 'save' tĦbet.....
Where were you in 2001?[/quote]
Wow, a cute little dictator in the making.
Everyone should think and act the same as you eh? Eradicate the religion of over 1 Billion people across the globe (they must all be so unhappy) so we can all be just like you. The world would be a perfect place if we had but one gene. The "oh the darkness" gene. How wonderful that people couldn't have their own religion, their own ways of thinking, their own culture, we could all just be like "oh the darkness"
What a wonderful Utopia.
Fcuking moron, humans are diverse in the ways that bring about a good life for them. The controlling what they do and feel is not something I believe is good for any population.
Where was I in 2001? What are you referring too exactly? |
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beautiful_mind0905
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Apr 25, 2008 - 01:01 PM |
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And we all came from Adam and Eve... |
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hc
Post Roaster
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Apr 25, 2008 - 01:03 PM |
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"No I am talking about modern history of China, the Cultural Revolution, The Red Guards, making 1 Billion uneducated serfs out of the population of which 900million live under the same conditions all for the benefit of Chairman Mao the Gang of Four and those gov't officals under them. As they still do today."
In fact the first thing Mao did was to redistribute land to the peasants. The peasants were basically screwed under the nationalists so what you are saying is imprecise. Further, studies show that by the increase in trade and globalization in general 300 million people got out of the poverty zone. Obviously not rich BUT the trend is positive.
Hence, any argument like yours, that fails to acknowledge anything good the Communists might have done, is doomed to fall on deaf ears as it is pretty easy to label you as Anti-China and hence with a canned opinion on all that.
As for religion: you forgot to mention several internecine fights between the t¡betans themselves. Again the same ingrained view that t¡bet was this beautiful peaceful place where everybody has a big house and two cars and then the Communists arrived and destroyed everything. That's wrong.
The COmmunists did in t¡bet what they did elsewhere: took out a scummy elite out of the game and gave the little guy some chance. Over time that momentum waned off, but anyone not acknowledging the good is not prepared to debate rationally and let's face it, you aren't. |
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tomnoddy_uk
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Joined: Mar 14, 2006
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Apr 25, 2008 - 01:09 PM |
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and visa versa the bad. |
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hc
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Apr 25, 2008 - 01:14 PM |
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