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StMichael
Ranter
Joined: Feb 19, 2005
Posts: 586
Location: Qibao, Shanghai
Status: Offline
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 Posted:
May 02, 2008 - 12:01 PM |
 
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Happens everywhere, hautumncloud. Even back in Singapore, we had to deal with so many cases of neglected children, whose parents were too busy making money to be with them, to attend their Sports Day (all children look forward to their parents being there), the Prize Giving Day or even the PTC! It is always a reminder to me, who tend to be so busy with other people's children, that I need to give time to my own children too. |
_________________
Michael Chan www.senseimichael.com |
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happyhere
Seeker
Joined: Jan 27, 2007
Posts: 47
Status: Offline
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May 02, 2008 - 12:13 PM |
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St Michael
In terms of eyeing a lucratuve market, I think there is room for everyone
There are traditional expats who need traditional international schools that offer British, American, German, French and Japanese, etc style education. I don't see this as ever being a market for local Chinese schools or the SEB.
There are overseas Chinese, Taiwan, HK, Singaporian, and returnee Chinese who want more Chinese language than traditional international schools can offer even from schools lik eYew Cheung that sell themselves as bilingual. These parents want their children to progress at or very near their grade-level in Chinese (I don't mean Chinese as a second language). Many other Asian families (Japanese and Koreans) want this as well. A school like Shanghai High School International Division is a good example. It offers up to nine levels of Chinese at almost every grade level with the highest levels at or very near the level onc would study in a Chinese school in Singapore or Hong Kong. And because its an international division of a local school, many asects of these kinds of schools are different from traditional international schools. There is more emphasis on testing, more homework, there are more local teachers who although all well trained will approach teaching and class management from a Chinese perspective, and the foreign teachers at these schools who teach Eglish and some other subjects are not always certified teachers (you can get some real gems and unfortunately some real lame ones). This is a lucratuve market for local Chinese schools.
There are Asian parents (I am thinking about some Koreans) that want boarding schools where their children can get a solid education in Chinese as well as English. Those parents might not even be in Shanghai. This may be a very lucrative market for local Chinese schools.
There are expats who aren't on packages and need to find alternatives that won't break them financially. This is where the traditional foreign operated expat schools in Shanghai and Beijing have really failed to offer an alternative. I know HK is a more mature market, but there is a better range for expat parents to select from. ESF schools (although I concede they do receive givernment subsidies) offer a more affordable alternative to expensive international school like HKIS and CIS. That said, HK also offers a wider range of options (and I mean financially as well as educationally) for all international schools. You can still send a child to high school at a decent international school inHk for less than 100,000 HKD a year. That is a lot less than schools like Dulwich, SAS and Concordia charge. Although the HK market is more mature, I do think you can compare Shanghai and HK because HK has even higher land costs as well as a higher overall living cost. So why don't international school in Shanghai and Beijing offer more affordable alternatives to a roughly 175,000 rmb yearly tuition fee (for high school) that most Shanghai/Beijing international schools charge? That is more than 75,000 rmb a year higher than decent international schools in HK. It sometimes feels too much like a monopoly. Yes, I know there are more expats in HK, but still the number is growing here and NO ONE seems to be creating alternatives. They all seem to be doing the same thing and using the same pricing.
There are other parents who want a local education for their children for either linguistic, cultural and/or financial reasons. BTW, the lvery long list of completely local school that were/are open to foreign children has been around for more than 8 years. This is not a recent thing. My children were all in local schools as early as 2000. Of course local school schools do well in this market, as they can easily charge the non-local tuition fee charge required of those that don't have a Shanghai hukou.
There are also the foreign operated upper-middle schools that are accredited abroad but offer some access for local students as well (as once out of middle school, local student are out from under the law which prohibts them from attending non-Chinese curriculum based primary and middle schools.) Again I think local schools can do well here too as they can create JVs with foreign educational entities to operate and manage these kinds of upper-middle schools.
The market is too complex and big for the SEB to try to corner or to service it fully. But I have to say that where they can get involved, they do. On the other had, the foreign operators still seem to be mostly stuck in mode of just offering ultra-expensive alternatives. It is a shame that no one is offer a mid-range (High School at under 100,000 rmb per year) traditional international school alternative. |
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StMichael
Ranter
Joined: Feb 19, 2005
Posts: 586
Location: Qibao, Shanghai
Status: Offline
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May 02, 2008 - 01:07 PM |
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High School at under RMB100k a year? Wow...that's not easy. SMIC could offer that, I guess (though it's not a "traditional" international school). I'm afraid my school is just a tad bit too high, even for junior high.
I am also convinced that something is wrong with the Shanghai market. When I first came here 4 years ago, like all managers, I checked out my competition. The American school here uses the same *figures* as the one in Singapore - except that the one here quoted in USD (then at 8.2 to the RMB), while the one in Singapore quoted in SGD (then at 4.91 to the RMB)! And the cost of living in Singapore is way higher than in Shanghai!
The biggest problem with all international schools have always been staffing. It is expensive to get good teachers over, and since many leave after 1-2 contracts (international school teachers tend to go for experiences and want to try different schools and countries), we have to spend money again on recruitment fairs. My 4 years with my school is considered a rarity in the industry! |
_________________
Michael Chan www.senseimichael.com |
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happyhere
Seeker
Joined: Jan 27, 2007
Posts: 47
Status: Offline
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May 02, 2008 - 01:58 PM |
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Yeah ESF is around 70-80K a year. Traditional international schools range from the low 90s per year for High School (like American International School in Kowloon) to Shanghai-and-Beijing-priced schools like HKIS (that also have debentures).
It is really a shame that Shanghai and Beijing don't offer a middle range traditional international school alternative because Shanghai and Beijing will never be able to attract and maintain a long-term diverse expat community if it can't keep people with these needs around. |
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janice3022000
Lurker
Joined: May 01, 2008
Posts: 22
Status: Offline
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May 02, 2008 - 02:10 PM |
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[quote="happyhere"
But first do some research. Find out what the process is and who is responsible for approving. Your husband may have contacts who can help get you this info.
I would go to the SEB (as a family and with a well connected Shanghai friend) and try to speak with the hghest level person you can who is in charge of this matter in order to get clarification and help. Explain your situation and why it is best for your children to go to an international school (eg. educationally an Intl school's approach is more suitable; socially and emotionally your children will have an easier time adjusting because cultural familiarity; linguistically they will be able to fit in; logistically your family does not plan to setlle permanently here but rather remain for just a few years so they need to have an international school experience so they might better fit in to a school once they leave China; etc. ).
We sent our children to local and international schools and found them both appropriate and good at different stages. But that is a different issue, and every parents' decision about what is the most appropriate education is unique to their own situation.
But if your chuldren are foreign nationals, here legally, they should have the right to access international schooling if you are willing to pay the fees.
Do what you have to do and believe that you will encounter reasonableis people along the way who will understand your situation. And when you don't, always look for another way.
The best of luck.
][/quote]
Thank for your reply and suggestions. Firstly, this is China, there is no way you get to meet with the person in charge if without any special relationship. I have checked on how to apply for the permit. The problem is that my husband don't hold any other permanent resident pass of other country except China so we actually don't fit in the criteria of applying the permit. The critieria given is for :
A) foreigners who is holding working permit and resident pass or
B)Chinese who is holding oversea permanent resident returning China to work and the children has been living and studying in oversea for at least 2 years .
I wil try to apply next Wednesday. This is because the application day is only Wednesday at 9am to 11.30am every week except public holiday.
They refuse to reveal what are the point that lead to unsuccessful application. |
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happyhere
Seeker
Joined: Jan 27, 2007
Posts: 47
Status: Offline
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May 02, 2008 - 02:57 PM |
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Dear Janice
I have been living in China and Hong Kong for over 20 years and I am also a foreign woman married to a Chinese man. I do know it is often difficult to see the person in charge in China (and by the way in most countries too). But don’t give up before you’ve tried. That is why I suggest your husband might use some contacts if he has any.
It sounds like the two conditions you listed don’t apply (and can not apply) to your family because your situation as it a bit unique. The regulation in Part B assumes that both parties are Chinese returning from abroad and in Part A it assumes that both parties are foreign and therefore one of them must be legally working in China with a work pemit. The government didn’t make the regulation with your family configuration in mind. So I think you have a really good case to make that given your situation you should be given a permit.
Remember that most foreign/Chinese couples (the authorities see in China) are a foreign man who probably has a job and thus a work permit/residence visa and a Chinese woman who may or may not have the right to residency in a foreign country. The fact that you are a foreign woman (who is not working) married to a Chinese man who works and does not need a work permit or residency permit to live here with two children who do not have Chinese hukou but rather foreign passports is bit more unique. Unique is good because it gives bureaucrats a reason to make exceptions.
Also if they won’t tell you why people fail this MAY be a good thing. They may mean they are open to hearing your situation.
I wish you the best of luck next Wednesday. |
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janice3022000
Lurker
Joined: May 01, 2008
Posts: 22
Status: Offline
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May 02, 2008 - 05:01 PM |
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Hi Happyhere,
I am very happy. Your reply really give us some hope for the application. I will let you know about the outcome. The way you look at the matter is really difference and it does make sense. Thank you. |
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mrc112
Seeker
Joined: Oct 26, 2005
Posts: 52
Status: Offline
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May 03, 2008 - 11:38 AM |
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I know of someone whose child is a foreign passport holder but both parents are Chinese passport holders. They were successfully able to obtain the necessary permission from the SEB. When I asked them how they were able to do it, the response was, "This is China. It's all about who you know."
Sorry Janice this isn't the most concrete advice but that's all the information I was given. |
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janice3022000
Lurker
Joined: May 01, 2008
Posts: 22
Status: Offline
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May 03, 2008 - 11:03 PM |
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Thank you for your information. I hope I can get an approval too. I really do not wish to send my children to int'l division in local school, it may delay their learning of English. Both of them face the same stituation now in kindergarten. The English teacher comment that their understanding of english is so much ahead than the rest of the student. Sometime, they really get bore during lesson. In their class, most of them are local and don't speak english. I do not want them to have the same stituation during primary school. |
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happyhere
Seeker
Joined: Jan 27, 2007
Posts: 47
Status: Offline
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May 08, 2008 - 08:25 AM |
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Janice
Hope things went well,
Hapyhere |
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janice3022000
Lurker
Joined: May 01, 2008
Posts: 22
Status: Offline
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May 22, 2008 - 12:12 PM |
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Hi happyhere,
I have collected the permit yesterday. Thanks you for your suggestion given previously. |
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hautumncloud
LoopKicker
Joined: Nov 04, 2006
Posts: 911
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May 22, 2008 - 12:13 PM |
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Congrats Janice! Glad that things worked out for you and your family! |
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janice3022000
Lurker
Joined: May 01, 2008
Posts: 22
Status: Offline
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May 22, 2008 - 12:23 PM |
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Thanks hautumncloud. We even thought of moving to Zhangjiang if we got a rejection! |
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StMichael
Ranter
Joined: Feb 19, 2005
Posts: 586
Location: Qibao, Shanghai
Status: Offline
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May 22, 2008 - 04:35 PM |
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jenny02067
Newbie
Joined: May 27, 2008
Posts: 5
Status: Offline
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May 27, 2008 - 04:59 PM |
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All the international school just for foreign passport only. The new rule will be the kids need stay outside CHINA for two years and have foreign passport. |
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StMichael
Ranter
Joined: Feb 19, 2005
Posts: 586
Location: Qibao, Shanghai
Status: Offline
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May 27, 2008 - 05:48 PM |
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That rule about kids needing to stay outside China for two years is new to me, Jenny. I believe my Marketing Dept would have informed me if this is so. |
_________________
Michael Chan www.senseimichael.com |
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happyhere
Seeker
Joined: Jan 27, 2007
Posts: 47
Status: Offline
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May 27, 2008 - 06:00 PM |
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Janice
Just saw your posting, I am really glad to here your good news.
Best of everythng, Happyhere |
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jenny02067
Newbie
Joined: May 27, 2008
Posts: 5
Status: Offline
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May 29, 2008 - 11:20 AM |
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| StMichael wrote: |
| That rule about kids needing to stay outside China for two years is new to me, Jenny. I believe my Marketing Dept would have informed me if this is so. |
Michael,
I do not want the say this is new rule for any school but our school is. The issue is too many Chinese parents buy the passport and send kid to internation school. |
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StMichael
Ranter
Joined: Feb 19, 2005
Posts: 586
Location: Qibao, Shanghai
Status: Offline
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May 29, 2008 - 11:26 AM |
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hautumncloud
LoopKicker
Joined: Nov 04, 2006
Posts: 911
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May 29, 2008 - 05:52 PM |
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| jenny02067 wrote: |
| StMichael wrote: |
| That rule about kids needing to stay outside China for two years is new to me, Jenny. I believe my Marketing Dept would have informed me if this is so. |
Michael,
I do not want the say this is new rule for any school but our school is. The issue is too many Chinese parents buy the passport and send kid to internation school. |
How does one buy passports?
May I ask the source for this new ruling, please. I am very interested to find out. So far no one in our int school have been informed either by anyone. May I ask jenny02067, is your school an international school or local school with int division or local school? |
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