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yin/yang
Talker
Joined: Feb 21, 2004
Posts: 81
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 Posted:
May 17, 2004 - 09:24 AM |
 
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| Edgewood wrote: |
The t¡betan Government was very successful for a very long time at playing rivals off against each other. When it suited them to be on one side, they were on that side. When it suited them to change, they changed. For a long time it suited them to appear to be under the protection of the emperor (especially in their dealings with the British and the Russians). Even when they did not always like something, they tended to do whatever they thought would result in the least disruption to their traditions and culture. For most of their history, this strategy worked very well, and ensured that their traditional way of life remained uniquely t¡betan. Unfortunately, that all changed half a century ago. Prior to that time, it seems very clear that, whatever the realpolitik at work and the political situation, the people of t¡bet did know beyond any shadow of a doubt who was in charge, and that person was a t¡betan.
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That’s largely true, Edgewood. For most t¡betans, they only knew da1a¡ 1ama, but not the Court. The Qing Dynasty exercised its jurisdiction over the region through the submission of the elite upper class. They weren’t able and had no intention to manage their daily affairs. That would be impractical and costly. The most important things for Chinese emperors throughout the history regarding the frontier areas were not the concrete management of those areas, not even the material benefits. Rather it’s the submissiveness of the regional leaders and feudal lords. Chinese emperors always considered themselves to be the “sons of the heaven” and Chinese heartland as the center of the world. They just wanted that mandate to rule, something more symbolic than materialistic. Further, through Chinese history, the emperors didn’t really care too much what the territory or borders laid. As long as the leaders in that area were submissive politically and culturally, that’s generally enough for them. They put a lot of emphasis on the “rites” than the substance. For other things, they could be “fuzzy”. But for t¡bet and other “fringe areas”, the most important things were their survival, security and the actual interests. Submissiveness could be used as a valuable resource or commodity to exchange for actually benefits. As you mentioned earlier, t¡bet was militarily weak by this time. It had a powerful northern neighbor, Dzungar (zun ke er) Mongols and a strong southern neighbor, Gorkhas of Nepal. It needed protection from Qing. It also had civil disputes that entailed arbitration from the court from time to time. For the upper elites, they could also got substantial material awards from the court. If they tried to rebel, it could be crashed by the Qing easily. In 1788, the brother of the 6th Panchen 1ama defected to Gorkhas and led them invaded t¡bet. Gorkhas forces ransacked monasteries and took the treasures with them. t¡betan side didn’t inform the residential commissioner on the defection of Panchen 1ama’s brother and decided to pay annual tributes to Gorkhas without the knowledge of the commissioner. Because they could not afford the tribute they negotiated, Gorkhas invaded again in 1791, easily took Shigatse (ri ke ze) and threatened Lhasa. But when the then mighty Qing army arrived, they not only drove out Gorkhas but entered their territory for 350 km without much effort. With such a show of force, t¡betans could easily see what’s the wise choice.
Having said that, I still agree with you that t¡bet had the de facto independence. But to make the picture more complete, I feel I need to add this part, no matter how symbolic the Qing’s jurisdiction was.
Okido, I think both Edgewood and I are having fun here to share what we know about t¡bet. Thank you very much for the encouragement. |
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palms
Seeker
Joined: Jan 28, 2004
Posts: 63
Location: shanghai
Status: Offline
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May 17, 2004 - 02:24 PM |
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Though it is not historical, I saw this in the online news today. If anyone gets a chance to get outside of China, this may be a film worth seeing, for a modern t¡betan's view. Thanks Edgewood and yin/yang, this is a really informative post. I eagerly await the finale.
Filmmakers Worry About t¡bet Film Footage
Sun May 16, 2:07 PM ET
By ANGELA DOLAND, Associated Press Writer
CANNES, France - Two filmmakers at Cannes took extreme precautions Sunday to make sure the people they interviewed for a rare documentary filmed in t¡bet would not face a crackdown by Chinese authorities.
To make sure the footage did not fall into the wrong hands, moviegoers were searched at the door for cameras and recording devices.
"What Remains of Us," playing at the Cannes Film Festival (news - web sites), offers a rare and moving look at ordinary people in t¡bet talking frankly about the hardships of the Chinese occupation.
Over eight years, two Canadian filmmakers posed as tourists to make risky trips into t¡bet, interviewing people in monasteries, tents, fields and homes. They have been cautious to ensure their subjects cannot be identified and punished by Chinese authorities.
Despite the dangers, most t¡betans were happy to speak, even on camera, said one of the directors, Hugo Latulippe.
"The world doesn't listen much to their story," Latulippe said. "So when foreigners come, they want to speak about their problems."
The filmmakers put themselves at risk by smuggling in a video message from the da1a¡ 1ama, the t¡betan spiritual leader exiled in India. People in t¡bet can be arrested merely for having a photo of the Nobel Peace Prize winner, who is peacefully pressing for t¡betan autonomy.
The movie's premise is simple: The filmmakers stored the da1a¡ 1ama's message in a tiny laptop and secretly showed it to t¡betans. Then they recorded people's reactions.
The most moving scenes show t¡betans crouched around the tiny computer screen. One elderly woman with a deeply lined face weeps as she clutches a small child. Stylish teenage girls in a city apartment break into tears.
In a cold and wind-swept field, a family kneels on the grass around the screen, hands pressed together in prayer.
In the message, the da1a¡ 1ama says that while China is still deeply repressive, it is in the midst of change. He also asks people to study and work hard to prepare for a better future.
"t¡bet, and we the t¡betans, deserve respect," he says.
To protect the identity of the listeners, the filmmakers shot many of their scenes in hard-to-reach areas. They also interspersed footage from different regions to make it tougher to guess where scenes were shot. Since the film wrapped, they have made as few copies as possible.
Latulippe and fellow director Francois Prevost, who also is a doctor, teamed up with a young Canadian of t¡betan origin, Kalsang Dolma, who was born in a refugee camp in India. She was the filmmakers' guide, translator and narrator, and she also sang traditional songs on the soundtrack.
The movie played at Cannes in a critics' showcase. It already has been shown at a lower-profile documentary festival in Toronto, also under tight security.
The filmmakers are looking for international distributors in Cannes. But any deals will be contingent on guarantees of thorough searches at theater entrances.
"We're not naive about it," said Jacques Bensimon, film commissioner and chairman of the National Film Board of Canada. "But we want to protect as much as possible the people who agreed to be in the film." |
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Edgewood
FooSlinger
Joined: Jan 28, 2004
Posts: 3906
Location: Colonial Shanghai
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May 17, 2004 - 02:57 PM |
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Damn, some courageous and brave people out there who are prepared to tell it like it is. Good work those guys! If any of you fine people who made that film ever read this, send me a private message and the beers and dinner are on me. Actually, that applies to t¡betans on the run also, although I should warn you my phone is tapped, my email is checked at the server, I suspect my house is bugged, and I'm very confident someone has entered my house without taking anything and locking the door again behind them when they left, so maybe we should meet someplace else?  |
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Conlige suspectos semper habitos |
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Nick-la
Wonder Wit
Joined: July 19, 2003
Posts: 3675
Location: Wasted on this site
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May 17, 2004 - 07:48 PM |
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It was me, and ps, pink thongs aren;t fashionable anymore. Hey who I am kidding, they'll never go out....
Yep if I ever met the guys that made this, I would be in awe, as they are the type of people that makes it worth living in the cesspit called Earth. |
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I'm surrounded by idiots. |
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okido
Rocker
Joined: Sep 14, 2003
Posts: 667
Location: A planet called Earth
Status: Offline
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May 18, 2004 - 02:46 AM |
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Palms -
Thanks for the posting. I believe soon there will be more people get to see the film since if there are people courageous enough to film it there will be people courageous enough to distribute it.
Okido |
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yin/yang
Talker
Joined: Feb 21, 2004
Posts: 81
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May 18, 2004 - 09:49 AM |
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Starting from 17th century, Britain began to colonize India Sub-continent and then gradually expanded northward. Towards the end of the 19th century, it already took Nepal, Sikkim (annexed by India in 1973), Bhutan and Jammu Kashmir under its control. Now it’s knocking t¡bet’s door.
But t¡betans were more reluctant to open up than the Chinese earlier when faced the Western powers. Until 1900, there had been less than 40 Westerners putting their feet on t¡bet’s soil. Among them, less than half a dozen ever got the chance to see the mysterious Lhasa. There might be more than one reason to explain why this is so. The Westerners usually attributed it to the strange way of thinking of t¡betans, (not sure it’s similar to what Andreas referred as “circular thinking” in several of his posts here). The main worries could be their nervousness of seeing the “pagans” to challenge the dominance of their religion. The control from the Qing Government could be another reason. When the Court had a lot of influence over t¡bet, it asked t¡bet to close the door. The Qing Government’s purpose was not to see the trouble similar to the invasion of Gorkhas again. Even for the merchants from Nepal and Kashmir, the Qing government said they could not come to t¡bet more than 3 times a year. It’s also conceivable that the Residential Commissioners bad-mouthed westerners too. The humiliations the Chinese suffered since the first Opium War in 1948 could naturally make those officials have very bitter feelings about westerners. The t¡betans could already had some impressions from those commissioners how evil and scary those westerns were.
The first group of westerners (mainly missionaries and adventurers) could not get inside t¡bet even when they had the pass (L visa?) issued by the Chinese government. They complained through their governments which in turn pressed the Chinese government to take care of this. But no matter how hard the commissioners tried to persuade t¡betans to let foreigners in (if the commissioners failed to do this, the court told them they would be disciplined), the t¡betans were stubborn and won’t compromise. In 1879, a petition by da1a¡ 1ama, Panchen 1ama and other high ranking officials to the government was titled “The t¡bet will never let foreigners to enter its territory” (全藏公禀永远不准洋人入境). To t¡betans, the opposition to letting the westerners in almost became their second nature without any reasonable thinking. They probably never imagined what close, sympathetic and supportive friends they became one century later.
It’s not too difficult to stop those individual missionaries and adventurers. But stopping the ambitious and powerful British would prove easier said than done. In order to enter t¡bet, The British first hired some Asians to get inside t¡bet as either merchants or pilgrims. They were trained for two years before they entered t¡bet. Their main mission was to explore the landscape and draw maps. No time to go details here but the maps they drew proved to be incredibly accurate even without any modern equipment.
Facing well-planned and dauntless British, t¡betans were like an ostrich burying its head into the sand. They just ignore them and didn’t want to have any contact with them, pretending nothing would happen. But after the British already took control of Sikkim and Bhutan that used to be the protectorates of t¡bet, the contact (the conflict) between the British and t¡bet was now unavoidable.
In 1988, the first military conflict happened between the two at the t¡bet-Sikkim border. It’s a not a “shock and awe” type warfare due to the earlier end of the conflict through the mediation from the Chinese government. The t¡betans hadn’t learned their lessons yet. The Chinese government negotiated with the British and signed several treaties and agreement. But none of those treaties and agreement was implemented. t¡betans didn’t recognized them at all. They were still doing what they had done, destroying the border signs established by the British at Sikkim-t¡betan border, crossed the border like there wasn’t one shepherding their yaks and sheeps to graze at the other side of the border as they had been doing for centuries. According to the treaty, Chinese promised the Indian goods could enter the t¡betan customs at Yatung (Ya Dong) without having to pay the tariff. But the t¡betans collect the money as usual. t¡betans still went freely to India to conduct business but they still won’t allow the British to enter t¡bet. When the British blamed t¡betans for breaching the treaty, t¡betans would pretend to know nothing about the treaty, saying the commissioner never showed them there was such a treaty and if there was one, it was not approved by t¡betan government. When the British asked to talk with them directly, they would say the Chinese took care of the diplomatic affairs and they didn’t dare to offend the emperor. Edgewood already touched this in his post earlier talking about t¡betans playing off rivals to their advantage.
Similarly, Chinese put all the blames to t¡betans for not following the treaty. The British Indian Governor Lord Curzon complained that when he tried to deal with t¡betans, either he got no response at all or t¡betans asked him to deal with the residential commissioner himself. But when he tried to talk to the commissioner, the commissioner would say there wasn’t much more he could do. He complained that the British was in a vicious circle played by the t¡betans and Chinese.
But before they got the whole picture, they were still mainly dealing with Chinese. One t¡betan Kashag government official named Xia Za (pin yin) was present too at the negotiation held at Sikkim. But it seemed neither Chinese or British side took him seriously. The only thing people remembered him was instead of making way for a British lady, he pushed the lady to one side and walked by. Seeing this, a young British man took his collar and humiliated him.
This anecdote itself was hardly of any historical significance. The reason I mention it here is I want to show when two civilizations meet, there will be difference. The behaviors will be judged by different standard and values held. From the western point of view, it’s bad manner and not acceptable not to let the lady pass first. But in t¡bet, women always gave way to men, especially lamas. But ultimately, when two cultures are in conflict, the one from the powerful side will be used as the standard. This is also applied to the t¡betan sovereignty issue. I think the Chinese government sincerely believes they had sovereignty over t¡bet, if not from Yuan Dynasty but at least from Qing Dynasty since its standard is the submission of the t¡bet. But now the western civilization is dominating, its definition of the sovereignty is different, more microscopic than china’s that is more macroscopic. |
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Edgewood
FooSlinger
Joined: Jan 28, 2004
Posts: 3906
Location: Colonial Shanghai
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May 19, 2004 - 01:34 PM |
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I just want to say to all those who have told me they appreciate what Yin/Yang and I are saying, that I'm sorry I've been slow to post - I'll pick up where I left off in a couple of days. Thanks. |
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Conlige suspectos semper habitos |
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yin/yang
Talker
Joined: Feb 21, 2004
Posts: 81
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May 21, 2004 - 12:07 PM |
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It appears that not many people showed much interest in this topic, let me jump ahead to the 1950s and onwards. Personally I found many things happened earlier interesting and relevant, we might come back later when the discussion entails. Now it is like a two-men show here between Edgewood and me. I wish more people would come out to share what you know about t¡bet.
Edgewood, I just saw a post from you in a different thread. While I appreciate sincerely your praise that I don’t really deserve, I feel a bit uncomfortable to be seen as someone different from most of his fellow country people. I understand some of your posts or opinions are probably the direct response to some locals’ ignorance, self-importance and arrogance (I am not talking about things in this forum, I mean the impression you might get from your contacts in the real world), if I could wish anything from you, I do hope you could be a little bit nicer to my people. I admire greatly your knowledge, your insightful observations and even your humor, but I am first and foremost a Chinese myself. As you already saw and will continue to see, I have my nationalistic feeling too. Even in this t¡betan issue, even though I am trying to be impartial, I always try to make a point for China whenever I feel I can. Speaking of that, I also appreciate the fact that you have been being nice with me here. I know there are many things you would like to challenge me in this thread but you didn’t. But please feel free to do so. We can still be friends if we have differences.
Okay, let’s get back to the topic. The relations between China and t¡bet are more complicated than what a few words can accurately describe. After reading things from both sides and from independent studies, my conclusion is that, While China genuinely believes t¡bet is part of it (from Qing dynasty through Nationalist government till present government), t¡bet had been under the self-rule and enjoyed the de facto independence. Especially during the period from Qing’s collapse to 1950s, t¡bet enjoyed outright independence. In the meantime, China never gave up its claim to t¡bet
By the end of 1949, PLA liberated most parts of China and they were ready to enter t¡bet now. While they were advancing from Yunnan, Qinghai and Xinjiang, the task was mainly assigned to the 18th army which had 30,000 plus soldiers which was now already in Sichuan. Though no one would have any doubt about the final outcome, t¡betans could do better by taking advantage of their geographic and climatic features. For example, they could let PLA in and then attack their supply lines) Instead, they concentrated two thirds of their army (less than 8,000, by this time, PLA was almost 5 million strong, defeated Chiang Kai-shek’s forces backed by the USA) around Changdu (Chamdo, not Chengdu which is the capital of Sichuan) and faced the invasion army head on. Poorly trained, poorly equipped and misinformed (for example, when the approaching army entered Guo Luo area in Qinghai (Amdo), they sent a representative named Za Xi Wang Xu (pin yin, a t¡betan and later became the Vice Governor of the province) to negotiate the surrender of the tribe leader. The famous question the tribe leader asked was “ which is bigger, China or Guo Luo?” This also reminds me that when the 13th da1a¡ 1ama (the current one is 14th) was in exile in India and before his meeting with the British India Governor, he asked his people “can the governor speak t¡betan?"), they proved no match. The PLA held the assault to Changdu while moving the their forces to t¡betans’ back, cutting their way of escape. On Oct.17th, 1950, the t¡betans decided to withdraw from Changdu but it’s already too late. They suffered a decisive defeat. The defense force was almost totally annihilated, and more than 2,700 t¡betans including the commander Ngawang Jigme Ngopa (A Pei A Wang Ji Mei who became the vice chairman of the People’s Congress, a symbolic position of the so called rubber stamp legislation) were captured. The road to Lhasa was now widely open.
After the defeat, t¡betans had to agree to accept the prerequisite that t¡bet is the part of China for negotiation that led to the “Seventeen Point Agreement for the Peaceful Liberation of t¡bet”. Now the exile t¡betan Government complained that the agreement was forced on them. But the truth is that many of the agreements in history were forced by one side onto the other and China was forced upon some treaties it won’t sign if it had choice. Till present day, in world stage, it’s still pretty much the “laws of jungle” that rule.
Now t¡bet was brought under Chinese control again after about 40 years of virtual total independence. It could be imagined that to prevent that from happening again, Chinese side would exert tighter control over t¡bet and that seemed to be what has been happening since. |
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Edgewood
FooSlinger
Joined: Jan 28, 2004
Posts: 3906
Location: Colonial Shanghai
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May 21, 2004 - 12:47 PM |
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Yeah, it seems like a private chat room now, and not a thread on a public forum.
I sat down today to write the last couple of pages of history. I actually had written quite a bit of it, then I wondered: what's the use? Nothing any of us can say will change the lies that are taught in schools here. Nothing will stop the CPC's agenda of extermination of non-Han cultures. I just don't think I can make any difference.
There have been just over 500 views of this thread and 30-odd posts, and I know I'm responsible for a lot of those. If this was an anti-United States or anti-Japanese thread, the count would be in the thousands by now, and the posts would be arriving hourly. Reasonable talk just has so little impact here.
The part that really gets to me is that the only thing that is likely to have any impact on this thread, is when I start talking about cultural genocide, and the rising body count in t¡bet. I will be flamed for telling 'dirty Jap lies' and the whole thing will just end up with a sh1t-slinging match. On top of that, I have been given the impression that future posts must not be critical of China, the Chinese people, and especially the CPC. I live here, my life is here. I don't need the headaches of defending myself in court against the State.
Make of that what you will. I may get motivated enough to write more on this, but probably not.
Have a nice day. |
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Conlige suspectos semper habitos |
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jane_ca
Rocker
Joined: Aug 26, 2003
Posts: 748
Status: Offline
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May 21, 2004 - 01:01 PM |
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I have been following and reading the thread since its inception. Interesting. Good job. Please do not under estimate value of your contribution. Concerns are understandable. (Understandable if you just stop here) Lack of participation is because subject of this thread is controversial and it's about history. |
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Benoist_Shanghai
Low Seater
Joined: May 18, 2003
Posts: 3057
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May 21, 2004 - 04:41 PM |
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Great post indeed Edgewood-yin/yang.
Can only read and learn....
b. |
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okido
Rocker
Joined: Sep 14, 2003
Posts: 667
Location: A planet called Earth
Status: Offline
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May 22, 2004 - 05:08 AM |
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| Post subject: What I know about t¡bet |
| yin/yang wrote: |
It appears that not many people showed much interest in this topic, let me jump ahead to the 1950s and onwards. Personally I found many things happened earlier interesting and relevant, we might come back later when the discussion entails. Now it is like a two-men show here between Edgewood and me. I wish more people would come out to share what you know about t¡bet.
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Not many but the few are the loyal and persistent audiences. It's not two-men show. Check how many people have browsed the thread!
I will join in after I finish reading yours and Edgewood's posts. Please don't stop, pleeeeaaassssseeeeee. |
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okido
Rocker
Joined: Sep 14, 2003
Posts: 667
Location: A planet called Earth
Status: Offline
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May 22, 2004 - 05:14 AM |
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| Post subject: What I know about t¡bet |
I smell "fresh air".
Yin/yang and Edgewood - You know what? I will cut and paste your posts and read them. So much information. Since the "concern" is true, how about PM you what I think? |
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yin/yang
Talker
Joined: Feb 21, 2004
Posts: 81
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May 22, 2004 - 06:37 AM |
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| Edgewood wrote: |
On top of that, I have been given the impression that future posts must not be critical of China, the Chinese people, and especially the CPC. I live here, my life is here. I don't need the headaches of defending myself in court against the State.
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I think there is a misunderstanding here, Edgewood. I am so dumb that I didn’t fully understand what you meant the first time I read it, hence the later response.
Whom am I to tell you what you should post or not? I never meant that, Edgewood. Please feel free to say whatever you want. Actually just as jane_ca mentioned earlier, people value your contributions here. I also said earlier what you posted here on the issue is particularly educational and beneficial to the locals who might not have the chance to get exposed to the different versions of the events or views. If you were offended by what I said about being a bit nicer to some fellow Chinese here, I can take back my words. No matter how unpleasant some of your posts might sound, these are your observations and are mostly true. I have no problem with that at all. I know sometimes you just want to have fun by saying some funny things, I felt if not for that, what you said might be easier to fall on our ears. I also was suggesting you might be able to be a little bit tolerant towards the ladies here. Other than that, I don’t have the slightest intention to suggest you should refrain from anything you want to say.
Believe it or not, most locals here are not anti-West if not pro-West. We could be more critical of our government, people, culture, habits and traditions among ourselves (I don’t have any contact with any members here though). We are sick and tired of the lies given by the government. We feel embarrassed by the ignorance and blind arrogance shown by some of our fellow people. So much so that when there are international sports games, I sometimes wish we could lose just to let people realize we are not always the best (hope my fellow compatriots forgive me for this weird thinking). Privately I have been thinking about translating some of your posts and then post them in some Chinese BBS I frequent, kinda of wake-up call for some of my fellow people. I think except for some posts where you talked about gene stuff, I seldom have any problem. I also think if you might have chance to meet LF or D and some other members, you guys might like each other mutually since I know you are all fine people, though you guys are frequently teasing each other. And now I know your Chinese might be quite good, let me type this Chinese phrase (不打不成交), to other members who might not be able to read, it means something like we won’t become good friends without putting up a fight first. By the way, the name of Yi Xin I typed earlier in a different thread was wrong (弈訢 instead of 弈欣and I changed it) if we were talking about the same person.
I am not sure what you are going to say next about this t¡betan issue. But I think you might be going to drop a bombshell soon. Just let you know it’s fine with me. I am here with an open mind to learn too. As a Chinese, it might be hard to be really impartial in a non-emotional way but I will try. At the same time, I will share what I know and very likely I might sound defensive.
Okido, thanks for your comments. It will give us some motivation to go on. Please feel free to send us PM (can I say for you Edgewood?) or post your opinions here. I might not agree with what you are going to say but I will defend your right to express yourself here. |
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yin/yang
Talker
Joined: Feb 21, 2004
Posts: 81
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May 22, 2004 - 12:09 PM |
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Here is something from a book written by Heinrich Harrer (the author of “Seven Years in t¡bet”) about how uninformed Chinese young people are regarding t¡bet. Personally I feel it’s hard to believe. Any of your expatriates here had similar experience? Or was it just a coincidence that he met just two air-headed girls?
“…How far the Chinese people themselves are from regarding t¡bet as a part of China is shown by an experience I had during a subsequent stay in Peking. At the reception desk in my hotel I asked a Chinese girl for postage stamps for one letter abroad and two to friends of mine in Lhasa. Unhesitatingly, she stuck the same stamps on all three. I asked: “Isn’t that too much? Surely t¡bet isn’t abroad?” She looked surprised, disappeared, and had to have a colleague explain to her that t¡bet was a part of China. In spite of an undoubtedly good political schooling, the Chinese girl at the hotel had clearly never heard of it.
After this experience I tested the girl clerk at my next hotel, with the same result” again she did not know that t¡bet was regarded as a part of China. It should be remembered that these hotel employees are relatively educated people, speaking a foreign language and deal with hundreds of foreigners. That they are unaware of t¡bet’s occupation is certainly most surprising. But I have noticed before, to my surprise, that we in the West are better informed on events in t¡bet than average Chinese.”
The author was referring to his visit in 1982. Most local members here might be too young to know much then. But I thought people were more political back then than now. Any comments from both the expat and local members? (just an attempt to get more people involved in this thread) |
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Edgewood
FooSlinger
Joined: Jan 28, 2004
Posts: 3906
Location: Colonial Shanghai
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May 22, 2004 - 12:28 PM |
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Thanks for the kind words y'all! I'm touched!
My decision to quit this thread is not in response to anything any of you have said. On the contrary, it's been great to have kept it civilised and out of the (now-extinct) pit.
No, my reasons for jumping out are personal. Thanks but y'all just gonna have to carry on without me  |
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xixi
Reacher
Joined: Jan 04, 2004
Posts: 312
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May 22, 2004 - 04:41 PM |
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yin/yang, your example that how young Chinese were/still are ignorant could be the name confusion. Most Chinese don't know t¡bet means Xi Zang in Chinese. We have different Chinese names for the names of most countries. This could start another thread why Chinese like to use Chinese names to call other countries. I think the name t¡bet might derive from "吐蕃“. |
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yin/yang
Talker
Joined: Feb 21, 2004
Posts: 81
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May 23, 2004 - 11:58 AM |
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Xixi, that’s very likely the case. But isn’t it too fast for the author to jump to that conclusion?
Edgewood, I think we will miss you here. Without you, I don’t think this thread can live much longer. I might stop here too since I don’t think I can give a balanced story alone. but I think for now, I will try to stay away from politics here and post something lighter.
Last year, UNESCO designated the Three Parallel Rivers National Park at t¡betan-Yunnan border area as one of the world heritage sites. The three rivers refer to Jinsha Jiang(yangtse, or changjiang), Lanchang Jiang (Mekong) and Nu Jiang (Salween). Three great rivers run parellel to each other within a narrow stretch, creating an area of unparalleled biological diversity, geological and landscape variety and great scenic beauty. Among them, Meili Snow Mountain (Prince Mountains) is breathtakingly beautiful and awesome. There are 13 peaks with each of them being over 6000 meters high. The most famous one is Kawa Karpo (卡格博峰, Kagebo peak, also refered as Kawagebo sometimes) with the altitude of 6740 meters.
According to t¡betans, Kagebo peak is the incarnation of one of their deities, Khorlo Demchok, or, in Sanskrit, Chakrasamvara (上乐金刚). It’s one of their most sacred places. They believe by walking around it, they gain inconceivable amounts of merit, which can have them to a desirable reincarnation.
The peak is still a virgin peak. Several attempts were made to climb it but all failed. In 1991, a joint team from Japan and China almost made it. t¡betans didn’t want anyone to get to their sacred mountain and they burned the incense and cursed the climbing. The team was less than 200 meters away to the top when suddenly there was a heavy snowstorm. They had to withdraw and on their way back, there was an avalanche. The whole team, 11 Japanese and 6 Chinese (some people say among 17 victims, there were also three Sherpas hired from Nepal) perished. And their bodies were not found until 1998 at the other side of the peak, at the Mingyong Glacier.
A few more attempts were made but all failed. One time, they were close again but the forecast said there would be another heavy snowstorm. They backed up and the weather turned out to be perfectly fine. This happened many times. The local told us that the weather always played the “seek and hide” games with the climbers. So no one made it to the top, including three joint teams between Japan and China.
For this reason, the t¡betans don’t like Japanese (not for the same reason Chinese do). So if you asked the local if you have chance to get the good weather to see the top of the mountain, they would say if no Japanese in town, you would.
If you have chance to travel to Lijiang or Luguhu area, it is worth it you extend a little bit far into the west. You won’t regret it.
People there also told you that when the late Panchen 1ama arrived there, all the clouds disappeared instantly and remained so until he left. Kagebo hid behind the clouds as soon as he left the place. |
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jane_ca
Rocker
Joined: Aug 26, 2003
Posts: 748
Status: Offline
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May 23, 2004 - 07:06 PM |
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I am sure this is a very good educational reading for both expats and locals on board.
The name issue probably is not a big deal. It's more likely for the sake of pronounciation. It's more of a translation/linguistic issue etc. For examle, Mount Chumulangma was renamed as Mount Everest. And it's not even on their map. So I don't see how this should be interpreted into "ignorance".
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The peak is still a virgin peak. Several attempts were made to climb it but all failed. In 1991, a joint team from Japan and China almost made it. t¡betans didn’t want anyone to get to their sacred mountain and they burned the incense and cursed the climbing. The team was less than 200 meters away to the top when suddenly there was a heavy snowstorm. They had to withdraw and on their way back, there was an avalanche. The whole team, 11 Japanese and 6 Chinese (some people say among 17 victims, there were also three Sherpas hired from Nepal) perished. And their bodies were not found until 1998 at the other side of the peak, at the Mingyong Glacier.
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Very interesting that you mentioned this. I read a book Into Thin Air by Jon Krakauer. Author narrated a personal account of a disastrous expedition to Mount Everest. At the end of the book attached a letter from a Nepal boy expressing his frustration/resentment over those expeditions. Mount Everest, original name Mount chumulangma (forget its meaning?! ) is also sacred to Nepals/t¡betans. Now there are westerners run business to help people fulfill their thrill to "conquer Mount Everest", the tallest peak in the world. (on Nepal side. similar situation on t¡bet side in China). In the past fifty years, those adventurers they conquer, they die, they litter....their intrusion disturbed the peace and serenity of the mountain and its offensive to local culture/religion. Ironically, local people actually helped carry supplies or worked as guides....for money.
I have an impression that what da1a¡ 1ama asked for an indepedent t¡bet, is not the same as nowadays' t¡bet auto region. What they ask, also include area in Qing hai, Gan su, Sichuan.....pretty much the t¡bet in KMT time. That's about 1/4 size of China. t¡bet is rich with minerals resources, two major river (Changjian, huangher) start from there. I remember there is another poster asked a questions in another thread "what t¡bet is going to be like if it becomes independant". I think probably it's more pertinent for Chinese to think "What china is going to be if t¡bet becomes independant?". Consider this from all aspects include national defense. What will China be with 1/4 severed? (open for discussion as you wish)
Lastest news I read about da1a¡ 1ama, he had a meeting with Paul Martin in Canada, as a religious leader. |
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dyniquee
Post Boaster
Joined: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 4777
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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May 23, 2004 - 07:23 PM |
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Shame on you Edgewood - look look how many lines you have posted ... compared to Ying/yang's?!? and most of them were all S&Cs ...
Yes, thanks Ying/yang - very educational posts ... I hate politics so I dont know much about those ... I love t¡bet because of its so amazingly semper fidelis people ... the bluest sky ... the purest hearts ... and the most touching singing ...
What I know about t¡bet is --
I want to go there as soon as possible ... !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
D |
_________________
Entangled Quantum Effect's at its best. |
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yin/yang
Talker
Joined: Feb 21, 2004
Posts: 81
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May 23, 2004 - 11:17 PM |
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| jane_ca wrote: |
....their intrusion disturbed the peace and serenity of the mountain and its offensive to local culture/religion. Ironically, local people actually helped carry supplies or worked as guides....for money.
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Yes, Jane. I agree. In fact, I feel even the tourism is a kind of intrusion too. Certainly it’s affecting their traditional style of life. I have a feeling that the tourists are not only littering the land, in a way, we might be polluting something more than that. While we feel sincerely the t¡betan people are honest and very helpful in general, we also saw things that seem inevitable when you open up to a more commercialized world. We went to this place and a t¡betan woman gestured to us to take a picture for them. We did and just as we were wondering how we could send the picture back to them, she was trying to tell us to pay some money for taking the picture.
Speaking of climbing the Chumulangma (Everest), (by the way, I think it means the mother goddess of the universe,) it seems it’s human nature to explore the unknown and to challenge himself. I didn’t have the chance to read the book you mentioned. It must be an interesting one. You can go to the website of the National Geographic where they have some sort of interactive display of the climbing and here is the link: http://www.nationalgeographic.com/channel/highspeed/everest/
I read some stories related to the climbing piece by piece. It seems those Sherpas would put the portrait of da1a¡ 1ama to the top when they got there. I also remember I read something that’s sad. This New Zealander was trapped somewhere and friends saw him but there was nothing they could do to help. He was using his satellite phone to talk to his wife who was 7 months pregnant while he was dying. They were talking about what name they would give to the unborn daughter. Gradually there was nothing coming out from him. How heartbreaking this was to his wife! or to anyone.
The latest news on t¡bet I heard is that another White paper on t¡bet was issued by the government today. http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200405/23/eng20040523_144141.html.
Yeah, D. People are fascinated by this seemingly mystic land. It seems to be the last pure paradise left in this world. It’s refreshing and purifying to be there. By the way, I can’t take the full credit for this thread. Edgewood is more knowledgeable (other members contributed too) than I am and I think what he posted is particular helpful for those of us who might not always have the chance to see how outside world look at this issue. We can certainly disagree though. In fact, I think we need to read critically on the issue no matter where the information is from since this is highly politicized issue and there are distortions to the fact from both camps in my opinion.
As for the question “what will China be with 1/4 severed” raised by Jane, I think I will try to say something tomorrow. With Edgewood retiring from this thread, I don’t feel I want to get into political part of the issue for some reasons. And I think after tomorrow’s post, I will keep quiet for a while too. I have a feeling I am too active which isn’t my nature in fact. The other reason is I also feel we locals’ voice is drowning that of the expats.
Jane, from reading your posts, I can tell without doubt that you are a very kind-hearted person. You have many posts that are thought-provoking too. I enjoyed reading them. As for the name issue we discussed earlier in this thread, xixi wasn’t suggesting the girls were ignorant. I think she meant this seemingly ignorance might come from the name confusion. |
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shanghaibarry
Barker
Joined: May 18, 2004
Posts: 188
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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June 24, 2004 - 09:36 PM |
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noticed this thread went quiet for for more than a month... eager to read more about the differing perspectives. keep it up yin/yang and edgewood! |
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yin/yang
Talker
Joined: Feb 21, 2004
Posts: 81
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June 25, 2004 - 11:19 AM |
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I would like to continue but I really wish Edgewood would come back to join us. No matter how hard I try to be impatial, as an ethnic Chinese, I am afraid I won't be able to present a real balanced picture. But I will try. I will try to come up with something over the weekend.
Thanks, shanghaibarry. It's a good feeling to know there are people following this thread. |
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shanghaibarry
Barker
Joined: May 18, 2004
Posts: 188
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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June 25, 2004 - 02:43 PM |
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I am eager to see your view on cultural invasion vs. modernization in recent day t¡bet. |
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yin/yang
Talker
Joined: Feb 21, 2004
Posts: 81
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June 28, 2004 - 09:23 AM |
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