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MaomingMaster
Board Legend
Joined: Feb 03, 2004
Posts: 11059
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 Posted:
Jan 31, 2005 - 09:43 PM |
 
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| Post subject: Man hit woman. |
Today I was on the subway and a fight broke out on the same carriage as myself. I could hear the people scuffling and yelling at each other as the train pulled into Peoples Square where I had to alight.
As I got off the train the people fighting also left the train via the doors one down from mine. Both parties (one guy in his early twenties and his girlfriend and two women in their late twenties) started waving their arms around like crazy and screaming at each other. I have no idea what the argument was about but it suddenly became much more heated.
As I was walking past the quickly gathering crowd the young guy punched one of the women in the face knocking her against the train that was now leaving. All the crowd let out a big 'Whooooo!!' as she hit the train and my instant reaction was to stop to see if the woman was ok (though, in hindsight, quite what use I would be is anyone's guess - send me a pm to reprimand me for this...). Amazingly, she bounced straight back up seemingly unhurt.
But what really surprised me was this. Not one member of the crowd bothered to yell at the young cowardly prick who hit this woman or even reprimand him for his thuggish behaviour. He stood there screaming his head off like he was the victim.
Is it customary in this country to allow little cnuts like the one I saw who hit this woman to just get away with this behaviour? It was all I could do to just bite my lip and walk away reminding myself that this is not my country and not my culture.
If I had seen this happen in the UK I may have had to wait my turn to knock some sense into the little cnut.
Please enlighten me. |
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good4kicks
LoopKicker
Joined: Jan 20, 2004
Posts: 955
Status: Offline
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Jan 31, 2005 - 10:05 PM |
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What you saw was no different to what autorock commented on in her post. ie. about driving along in Shanghai and some Chinese guy was laying down on the road hurt while all passers-by were ignoring him.
Such is the apathetic self-centred nature of the local people. If the Chinese don't know somebody, it's like that person doesn't exist. |
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frenchlover1999
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 8730
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Jan 31, 2005 - 10:08 PM |
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Ok this is all very bad and I am sure most of us would agree with you. But what answers do you really expect? The usual litany of Chinese-people-are-so-bad-so-rude-I-hate-them-all-useless-bastards, with the usual Edgewood and friends jumping in, Merdy as the main contradictors, some of the Chinese members coming in later, one or two Taiwanese or ABCs to tell us things are not like this where they come from? Just curious. |
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That was no shark. That was my personal submarine. But enough of this polite conversation. What is the purpose of your visit? |
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MaomingMaster
Board Legend
Joined: Feb 03, 2004
Posts: 11059
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Jan 31, 2005 - 10:23 PM |
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You're absolutely right, frenchlover....
Delete this thread, mods. |
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Edgewood
FooSlinger
Joined: Jan 28, 2004
Posts: 3906
Location: Colonial Shanghai
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Feb 01, 2005 - 07:22 AM |
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Remember the good old days, and the thread entitled "The cold-blooded and timorous Shanghainese" ?
What can I possibly say that most of us here don't already know? |
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Conlige suspectos semper habitos |
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good4kicks
LoopKicker
Joined: Jan 20, 2004
Posts: 955
Status: Offline
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Feb 01, 2005 - 09:31 AM |
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Why delete this thread? As I see it, the initial posting serves three functions.
First, it is a venting of frustration, which everyone needs once in a while. Second, it teaches newcomers to China, and those naive westerners here, that they should not expect a Chinese to come to their rescue in a crisis and that they need to rely on themselves. Third, it teaches the Chinese that browse this site something about western values.
I say, don't delete it. |
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pickle005
Barker
Joined: Dec 23, 2004
Posts: 158
Status: Offline
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Feb 01, 2005 - 10:12 AM |
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well, someone just lit the fuse. FLAME ON!!! |
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GC
The Ginger Prince
Joined: Dec 01, 2003
Posts: 21536
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Feb 01, 2005 - 10:25 AM |
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dont delete, this is actually a reasonable topic.
1st point. its always interested me when i see chinese women walking down the street with heavily bruised faces. is the common cause an accident or some form of physical abuse? are chinese women less ashamed than western women to be seen outside like this or is it a shanghainese thing.
2nd point. whether to intervene or not. i was out drinking in glasgow and had to go over the footbridge to get to the city centre to meet some mates. on the bridge i noticed a smartly dressed man and woman in the distance stopping every so often and shouting at each other. this escalated into a full scale shouting and pushing contest at which point the guy hit the girl, she fell to the ground and did not get up. having had a few beers inside me i verbally had a go at the guy at which point he decided to get physical and stuck his face in mine. the guy ended up on the ground at which point i was hit fairly hard by the women. thankfully the guy stayed down so i was able to just shout at both of them and make my exit to the pub. therefore, do you intervene or not? |
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jimandcoco
StreetBeater
Joined: Apr 20, 2004
Posts: 2204
Location: California
Status: Offline
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Feb 01, 2005 - 11:15 AM |
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If MMM had intervened there's a good chance he could have been acujerjered. That is, a mob of Chinese might have attacked him. Probably best that he bit his lip and walked away.
Jim |
_________________
I'm going to memorize your name and throw my head away. Oscar Levant (1906 - 1972) |
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missbei
Squeeker
Joined: Feb 01, 2005
Posts: 17
Location: shanghai
Status: Offline
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Feb 01, 2005 - 11:24 AM |
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hi,
Maybe it is all about human being
not just about china or shanghai...
nobody knows how to react ... it is really sad to see this in the 21rst century...
violence is just not ok and of course not a solution to any problems! |
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SHMSPAC
Reacher
Joined: Sep 01, 2004
Posts: 236
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Feb 01, 2005 - 11:33 AM |
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Don’t delete this Thread, as this is the exact intent of this Forum ….a place for people to express their feelings, opinions and vent, hopefully in an effort to better understand their new environment.
I would disregard the fact that this happened in Shanghai, and that would alleviate the issue of “China bashing”. The point is, based on your own individual beliefs, excluding legal factors, is it tolerable for a man to physically abuse a woman, and if no, how far would you let it go, before getting involved?
1) I feel that it is never acceptable for a man to be physically abusive to a woman, unless in some obscure case of self-defense.
2) As to when to get involved, and or how to intervene, this gets complicated. Ask any police officer in the US and they will concur that domestic violence is potentially the most dangerous call they receive, as often the police become the victims. Having said that, I would certainly attempt to separate the victim from the assailant, although I would use caution, as it is not uncommon for the victimized woman to turn on the “good-doer” to protect her significant other, in the case of domestic issues, but if it was a case of non-domestic violence I would use whatever measures needed to protect the victim.
Where to draw the line? This is also difficult, because once adrenalin starts to flow; it can be difficult to control anger and rage. This can become even more dangerous if drugs and or alcohol are involved, so one needs to exercise self-control…not easy! There is also the chance that the “good-doer” might become a victim of the assailant as well, as good intensions alone don’t ensure you will be the victor!
Men who physically abuse woman are the smarmy cretin’s, and their violent behavior should not be tolerated, legally, or morally. |
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cornsey1011
Wonder Wit
Joined: Mar 23, 2003
Posts: 3781
Location: Shanghai...looking for a new abode
Status: Offline
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Feb 01, 2005 - 11:40 AM |
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Give me a break, she was probably nagging him incessantly for 20 minutes because he didn't pay her 3 kuai train ticket, doesn't make enough money, doesn't give her mom enough attention, doesn't cook dinner well enough, doesn't clean, doesn't do this, doesn't do that...etc etc etc.
Women mentally, emotionally and politically abuse men in criminal numbers on a daily basis. So what if one dude decided to give a little chin music back to his honey. He probably did it out of love. |
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good4kicks
LoopKicker
Joined: Jan 20, 2004
Posts: 955
Status: Offline
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Feb 01, 2005 - 11:41 AM |
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SHMPAC: one of the big issues here is also, why does the failure of people to help someone in distress appear to be very common in China?
I have spoken to a couple of Chinese about this overnight and they both acknowledged it is common in China and replied that "people are too afraid to get involved". Basically, in some cases they are cowards or they just don't want any hassles. |
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frenchlover1999
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 8730
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Feb 01, 2005 - 11:47 AM |
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merdy
Rocker
Joined: Mar 10, 2004
Posts: 747
Status: Offline
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Feb 01, 2005 - 12:16 PM |
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MMM...if my auntie had a dick she would be my uncle...
So you see this poor woman getting hit by a guy, and you just walk by it and leave? And then you complain that noone did anything. And the cherry on top is your excuse that this is not your country? And that if it was England you would have knocked the guy out? please. You remind me of this joke, which good4dicks might like since it happens in Texas:
Two guys from New York are driving on the highway in Texas when they get pulled over by a state trooper. He walks to the driver's side, knocks his stick on the window. The guy rolls the window down and the trooper whacks him really hard on the head. The guy says:
- What did you do that for?
- This is the State of Texas son. When you get pulled over you are expected to have your licence and registration ready by the time the officer reaches your car window.
So he checks the papers and gives them back to the driver. Then he walks to the passenger side and knocks on the window. The guy rolls down the window and the trooper whacks him really hard on the head.
- What the hell was that for?
- Well son, I was only granting you your wish.
- What the hell are you talking about? What wish?
- Well, I know you sissy New Yorker types. Two miles down the road, you will turn to your friend here and tell him: "I wish that cockkkksvvcker had tried that with me!"...
So this not being your country or culture is an excuse to watch a woman get hit by a punk. And the new village idiot good4dicks to jump in and declare that the Chinese don't help eachother. Would you have done it bitch? would you have helped if you were in MMM's position? Somehow I doubt it. And this type of passive "I don't give a shiiit as long as it's not me" attitude is everywhere. People in Paris, a few years back, watched a girl get gang raped by a bunch of teenagers on the subway, and they just sat there and watched. That's just one example. You either have the balls to help, or you don't. Not a lot of people do. But spare us the bullshiiit about "this is not my country...this is not my culture". Please. |
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frenchlover1999
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 8730
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Feb 01, 2005 - 12:29 PM |
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Just like I was saying in my first post... This thread actually went on quite well, but now "deja vu" is making its way back. |
_________________
That was no shark. That was my personal submarine. But enough of this polite conversation. What is the purpose of your visit? |
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merdy
Rocker
Joined: Mar 10, 2004
Posts: 747
Status: Offline
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Feb 01, 2005 - 12:40 PM |
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yea...deja vu is my middle name... |
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good4kicks
LoopKicker
Joined: Jan 20, 2004
Posts: 955
Status: Offline
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Feb 01, 2005 - 12:51 PM |
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hey merdy: it was probably your hook-nosed Morrocan and Algerian cousins in Paris doing the watching.....and the raping |
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SHMSPAC
Reacher
Joined: Sep 01, 2004
Posts: 236
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Feb 01, 2005 - 12:59 PM |
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good4kicks
I understand the issue t regarding the reluctance of Chinese to get involved, but this has to do with most things and in open discussions, it typically leads to “China bashing” which can be avoided if we stick to the root of this problem, physical abuse of women.
Keep in mind; it’s not just in China where getting involved can cause grief for the person trying to defend an innocent victim. In some situations, people will find themselves being arrested or sued for their efforts. Many years ago, I got involved in one of these “abuse” situations, and found myself with more problems than bargain for. While it was the right thing to do, by helping, because I had been a competitive boxer, the perpetrator sued me for damages he suffered. Ridiculous when you consider the women he abused sustained serious injuries. Eventually the suit was dismissed, but still it was costly. In hindsight would I have intervened again, yes, the guy was really beating the woman, and it needed to be stopped. Getting involved is an individual’s decision, and there are some that would simply watch, where others are inclined to help. As to what to do, try to stay out of it, but sometimes it simply isn’t possible, so use good judgment, and be prepared to accept the consequences. On the other hand, if a person decides to stand back and do nothing, I feel they should be charged as an accomplice. The real danger is that no one wants vigilantes prowling the streets, looking for crimes to stop.
In the news this week, there was a story about a city near Shanghai, can’t recall the name, that has started a “neighborhood watch”, where citizens are getting involved, and looking out for one another in an effort to reduce crime. These are good programs when overseen by police, but risky when left to inexperienced people to manage by themselves. |
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good4kicks
LoopKicker
Joined: Jan 20, 2004
Posts: 955
Status: Offline
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Feb 01, 2005 - 01:07 PM |
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SHMPAC: I know what you're saying. At the end of the day, the decision of whether to act or not must be made in accordance with how your conscience guides you.
This leads to the question......
Since the locals here have no religious beliefs and have been raised in a dog-eat-dog environment, have seen their leaders (are these their role models?) screw over millions of innocent people, what kind of conscience does the typical Chinese possess? |
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SHMSPAC
Reacher
Joined: Sep 01, 2004
Posts: 236
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Feb 01, 2005 - 01:38 PM |
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good4kicks
I wouldn’t have the faintest idea, I’m not Chinese, nor am I going to be pulled into the quagmire of trying to sort it out.
Try to stay focused on the issue, and away from innuendos that just fan the flames, as to what others opinions are regarding Chinese. |
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farang
Reacher
Joined: Nov 02, 2004
Posts: 256
Status: Offline
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Feb 01, 2005 - 01:48 PM |
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| good4kicks wrote: |
| What you saw was no different to what autorock Such is the apathetic self-centred nature of the local people. If the Chinese don't know somebody, it's like that person doesn't exist. |
Couple of things here... one about a crowd not doing anything. Another about hitting women....
The crowd thing is big-city life... Ya see so many people every day that you think 'the next guy' will help out. I remember a Twilight Zone episode years ago about the crowds that stand around people in trouble and do nothing- they were some sort of alien creatures that sucked away the guy's oxygen or some sheeit like that.
The other day I was in a van traveling under a highway when there was a huge crash, sounding like something had been dropped from a height. Looked over and saw a car had somehow struck a pillar on the other side of the road- car was seriously fekked.
A few people ran towards the car right away. Looked like they were gonna help the guy, though of course they coulda been racing there to take his valuables and pull out his gold teeth...
As for hitting women... I don't think there's a sliding morality scale as far as hitting what (man, woman, child, animal) is worse- they're all not good. |
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SirFiddler
Board Legend
Joined: Mar 30, 2004
Posts: 11445
Location: Very close to a bottle of chilled Boags
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Feb 01, 2005 - 02:04 PM |
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I would not have done anything either. We expats are always told we're only guests here and that we have to obey the rules and habits.
And that goes both ways. If I am not allowed to complain about a person that spits,litters, cuts lines or drives without any consideration for the life of others, I will do fcku all helping a local while the locals look away.
Not being able to speak the lingo I would not even be able to explain why I would try to help the woman and stop the guy, he'd think I attack him because I am an evil big nose and a nice brawl would start. Others joining the scene later would probably try to help him ( not knowing what really happened ) and I'd get a little kicking. Once the police is there, I'd get arrested ...No thanks.
Then I read ( think it was Ivo's ) a story about trying to help someone that got hit by a bus, saying that you might be held responsible for damages to that person. Imagine you try to help the girl and shes not that lucky and bounces back from the train...You're probably the one being blamed...
I would feel sorry as hell though
And as for hitting women...Only if they deserve it  |
_________________
Beer...Soooo much more than just breakfast www.justbeer.cn |
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missbei
Squeeker
Joined: Feb 01, 2005
Posts: 17
Location: shanghai
Status: Offline
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Feb 01, 2005 - 03:31 PM |
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ok let's get it straight! nobody deserves to be hit! good lord!
isn't there an english speaking staff at the police station??? if you are sacred or don't dare to be involved why don't you call them???
not really difficult!
we are all in a way citizens and above all responsible, no?
well, of course there is no universal answer but there you go....
why not trying a little hard????????
it is nothing to do about china but all about human being.
cheers
astrid |
_________________
Astrid |
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Gardovan
Talker
Joined: July 08, 2004
Posts: 84
Location: PuDong
Status: Offline
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Feb 01, 2005 - 03:50 PM |
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| missbei wrote: |
hi,
Maybe it is all about human being
not just about china or shanghai...
nobody knows how to react ... it is really sad to see this in the 21rst century...
violence is just not ok and of course not a solution to any problems! |
What kind of sensles excuse should this be?
But nevermind rather natural in Shanghai.
Sure it is human nature to help but because of our society issues it becomes more and more a problem to do the first step. It has a psychological reason, because once you personalize the issue, not asking an anonymous crowd for help but an individual beeing they will start to help.
I don't know about shanghai but what I know and heard many times is:
"What do you bother? You don't know him."
Thanks a lot, ppl somewhere else at least bother and feel bad afterwards, but not so in Shanghai, they behave like that and walk away like nothing ever happened.
That's what bugs me behaving very selfish and feeling like the most generous beeing in the world.
But the other way round if you, as a foreigner, grab the arm of a pickpocketing thief and he starts yelling like you kill him, all the chinese ppl around you are on you, because you are a arrogant westerner and that's an eternal law(to be arrogant I mean)!
So I ask you who is the arrogant one? The shanghainese ppl who behave like this and demand the westerners to be more understanding, but on the other hand they themselves don't ever loose a single thought about your point of view? Or the westerners who have problems to understand such a cold blooded behaviour like in Shanghai?
I woun't say that all foreigners are nice, absolutely NOT! There are as many assholes as well, but you see I don't try to defend their behaviour AND THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE!
Bye Lads. |
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