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amig
Barker
Joined: Apr 26, 2007
Posts: 125
Location: suburbia
Status: Offline
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 Posted:
June 04, 2008 - 10:04 PM |
 
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....really seeriuos competition. |
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hautumncloud
LoopKicker
Joined: Nov 04, 2006
Posts: 912
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June 05, 2008 - 12:24 PM |
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| Quote: |
| WISS is yet to be certified. The 2 schools with PYP IBO certifications are Shanghai Victoria Kindergarten and World Foreign Language Primary School. |
| StMichael wrote: |
| Yikes - which means none of the ones you mentioned are "true blue" international schools operating on an international school licence? You know what this means - those of us holding the international school licences are in for serious competition man! |
I don't think there is any competition between the int schools and the said schools even if they do hold PYP certification. There is a big difference and preference to international schools vs non-international schools even if there is an IB profile involved. There are many factors to opt for international school such as integration into the schools of country of next assignment, home country as well as continuity of higher education beyond PYP. Of course this is from an expat's point of view as well as a parent of foreign children studying here 
I am sure there are many others who would not blink an eye when sending their children to the two PYP certified IBPYP schools for many reasons that would work for their family. |
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ZIP200120
Newbie
Joined: June 06, 2008
Posts: 3
Status: Offline
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June 08, 2008 - 09:39 PM |
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| HappyMG wrote: |
Hello everyone and thanks for your opinions!
Like I said, I was only trying to warn other parents
about the organizational issues with YK Pao. Considering the waiting
lists in so many schools, not telling the parents their child isn't
accepted for whatever reason means risking this child being left out
of the school completely! In my opinion, no good educator could possibly defend that kind of neglect!
And since I wasn't even shown the text books YK Pao is using, nor was I ever allowed to attend a class there, it's actually very difficult for me to judge what they do in their classrooms. What I do know, is that most important subjects,
like math and science are actually only taught in Chinese! The rest, like music, art and PE are taught in English...
Seems rather easy and probably doesn't require that much academic proficiency from the foreign teachers, wouldn't you agree? Great way to save some money...
And in response to 88807:
I did happen to visit the SHSID just recently, and I am sorry to say that I was completely disappointed when I saw the level of knowledge and especially the level of English of the students there (their work was displayed on the walls outside the classrooms, and the level of the 5th grade was somewhat comparable to that of the kids in 2nd grade in SCIS...). There were uncorrected (!) spelling and grammar mistakes, which no teacher could have or should have possibly missed, and yet, there were neat little greetings from the teacher on top of each presented book report: "Well done! Good job!"
Seriously???
I'm not sure where most of the kids in SHSID are from (I was told the school has 2000 foreign students or so), those I saw were 100% Asian kids, which doesn't matter of course, but what does matter is the incredibly low level of their English skills, which just makes one wonder...
And honestly, after reading your reply, 88807, I'm suddenly not so surprised anymore... (I don't mean to sound like a b...ch, so please don't take it the wrong way, but if you're writing as a teacher, you really could put in at least a slight effort...)
And back to the original topic, we're still looking for a school for our child, and still no closer to making a decision... |
What is the definition of an international school? Are Asian kids not international or are just American Kids "international"? let me know what do you very 1960 Alabama Americans think of us.
SHSID and we do in fact have 2000 foriegn students all with American ,Japanese, Korean, etc... what do you expect from a international school, a bunch of "foreign students. I have no idea where did you find those papers do you not realize that the foriegn teachers are extremely stressed from grading over a hundred papers a day so they have an excuse for the sloppy grading? Trying to counter me would be the most pitful thing you have ever done....Oh yeah if you want to be a pure whatever country person then go back to where you came from!! |
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That_Chinese_Girl
Veejay
Joined: Oct 08, 2007
Posts: 2068
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June 08, 2008 - 09:55 PM |
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I don't see it as sloppy grading. Sometimes it's not good to correct EVERY mistake. You don't want to cover the paper in red ink and shatter the students' confidence. It's a delicate balance, I think. |
_________________
Objectivity is the male subjectivity. |
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StMichael
Ranter
Joined: Feb 19, 2005
Posts: 586
Location: Qibao, Shanghai
Status: Offline
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June 08, 2008 - 10:08 PM |
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| That_Chinese_Girl wrote: |
| I don't see it as sloppy grading. Sometimes it's not good to correct EVERY mistake. You don't want to cover the paper in red ink and shatter the students' confidence. It's a delicate balance, I think. |
It is a very delicate balance indeed. Those of us from Singapore *do* grade in that manner (red ink all over the paper). We believe it is important for us to point out where the children have made their mistakes so that they can improve (I actually made my pupils re-write the essay with the corrections).
One American parent actually called up to complain when her son's essay was given the same treatment. She was not happy when I explained the stand of the school.
Yes, the pupil's confidence may be shattered. On the other hand, how do we accelerate learning and bring the child's learning to the correct curve if we accept all mistakes and do not bring them to the child's attention? I have yet to know of anyone knowing how to drive when the instructors accept that the driver can move against the flow of traffic, and even give a thumbs up to the driver for doing so! |
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Michael Chan www.senseimichael.com |
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That_Chinese_Girl
Veejay
Joined: Oct 08, 2007
Posts: 2068
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June 08, 2008 - 10:35 PM |
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I believe the best way to correct is to underline the mistakes. Have the students figure out what was wrong. That way, the essay is not covered in red AND students' mistakes are pointed out. |
_________________
Objectivity is the male subjectivity. |
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StMichael
Ranter
Joined: Feb 19, 2005
Posts: 586
Location: Qibao, Shanghai
Status: Offline
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June 08, 2008 - 10:41 PM |
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| That_Chinese_Girl wrote: |
| I believe the best way to correct is to underline the mistakes. Have the students figure out what was wrong. That way, the essay is not covered in red AND students' mistakes are pointed out. |
The pupils may not be able to figure out what was wrong (trying to figure out what was wrong with my Chinese, for instance, when I was back in grade school, was a torture, if not an impossibility, for me).
But I do not insist on my teachers doing beyond just underlining the mistakes. As long as a mistake was pointed out (so the pupil knows that all is not fine and dandy), it is ok with me. My background does mean that I am partial towards teachers who do go the extra mile. |
_________________
Michael Chan www.senseimichael.com |
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hautumncloud
LoopKicker
Joined: Nov 04, 2006
Posts: 912
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June 08, 2008 - 11:19 PM |
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I do see it both ways. I did learn from my first child going to school in Canada when she was 4. She liked to write and came back with paper full of some scribbles, some writings, a little line here & there which make sense, others does not make sense to me but does to her. Of course most were not spelled correctly. My daughter was a early learner and reader and could read Disney books from age 18 months. The teacher gave her "bravo" stickers etc. When I asked, the teacher told me that during the period which the paper was produced, the students were encouraged to write a story. The encouragement and goal then was for the creativity of the story; therefore grammar, prefect tenses etc will be overlooked in hope to promote the creativity. Quite a light bulb moment for me.
Another example was when my daughter put on her coat inside out and shoes on the wrong feet. Teachers did not correct them, instead sent her home just like that. The goal at that time was for the students to learn to put on their clothes and shoes, so when they do, they have achieved the goal. Also an additional objective at that time was to improve their fine/gross motor skills. As this get imporved, the students will learn quickly which side is right and which shoes belong to which foot. Instead to learning everything at once, the skills and tasks are tackle separately and from my experience as a parent, it is harder for the parent to watch and NOT correct but my children learn way "faster" and much more independently than the old fashion way as their maturity rather than speed is taken into account.
Of course as the students grow older towards higher grades, the expectation of correct grammar, tenses, proper launguage skills should be taken into account as they would have been taught all through the years of their schooling and would be expected to have learnt the necessary skills.
What I shared will hopefully give an insight to what "the other side" of teaching is gearing towards. And that there is more than one way to learn.
Hopefully the "all red" would be in accordance to the age appropriate expectaton of the students skills. |
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hautumncloud
LoopKicker
Joined: Nov 04, 2006
Posts: 912
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June 08, 2008 - 11:25 PM |
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| ZIP200120 wrote: |
What is the definition of an international school? Are Asian kids not international or are just American Kids "international"? let me know what do you very 1960 Alabama Americans think of us.
SHSID and we do in fact have 2000 foriegn students all with American ,Japanese, Korean, etc... what do you expect from a international school, a bunch of "foreign students. I have no idea where did you find those papers do you not realize that the foriegn teachers are extremely stressed from grading over a hundred papers a day so they have an excuse for the sloppy grading? Trying to counter me would be the most pitful thing you have ever done....Oh yeah if you want to be a pure whatever country person then go back to where you came from!! |
No matter how many papers a teacher have a grade a day, there is no excuse for sloppy grading! That is a teacher's job!! As to style of grading, that is a different matter.
And no one is "trying to counter you". Pathetic that this is your first post and it is coming across this way. Even scarier to think that you actually may be representing SHSID in whatever position. |
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StMichael
Ranter
Joined: Feb 19, 2005
Posts: 586
Location: Qibao, Shanghai
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
June 08, 2008 - 11:28 PM |
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| hautumncloud wrote: |
| Hopefully the "all red" would be in accordance to the age appropriate expectaton of the students skills. |
This "self-esteem" vs "proper scaffolding" thing has been the subject of endless educator debates ad nauseum even in Singapore, and I suspect it'd have been debated to death in countries where human rights are held somewhat more sacred.
A child who got "all red" simply does not have the grade appropriate expectations. The child may simply be a slow developer. Or a beginner at the language (like some of my Chinese pupils in Singapore). Or does not have a good social-economic background to develop as a learner. There are many, many reasons, and a good and concerned teacher will try to encourage the child in other ways.
I had the "privilege" of teaching such a class back in Singapore. Some of the school's sportsmen and sportswomen were represented in the class, as were some of the best artists I have ever encountered. They just simply sucked at English, Math, Science and Chinese - unfortunately all subjects that determine their academic future.
As a teacher then, I think I did more pep talks and chats with the kids than anything else. And yes, their essays and worksheets were red with my ink. I hope I was able, as a teacher, to at least inspire them in life even though they would be considered academic failures. |
_________________
Michael Chan www.senseimichael.com |
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88807
Lurker
Joined: Oct 15, 2004
Posts: 31
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
June 08, 2008 - 11:37 PM |
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I saw the comment about SHSID and the students worked displayed. As St M' points out, this is a touchy subject. As a parent you have to decide what you think is the right thing for your child, not denigrate a school based on what you think (ie. your opinion).
I have been teaching for over 10 years in various schools, and I believe there are some very sound arguaments in favour of marking kids work according to the focus of the task, and the level of the student. If your intention with a task was to teach them to write a particular style of text, but it didn't have to be 100% grammaticly correct, then that's fine. As a marker you should focus on what you are aiming to achieve with that piece of work, and comment accordingly.
My teacher training taught me the best way to teach kids is to help them by underlining and then seeing if they can find the mistakes themselves. If they can't, then you guide them later. I think a teacher goes the extra mile if they guide students with grading, not cover it in red. Their job is to grade, but grade appropriately.
As to displaying work, if you put work up outside classrooms thats "perfect" (and im assumuing your definition is here a robotic piece of work thats got all the letters crossed and full stops marked), then you are giving the family of the student a "show" piece thats not really indicative of what the child has done in class. That maybe be appropriate for a final edition of a printed publication, but for outside a classroom?
You said the teacher made positive comments at the top of the work, do you know why? What was the teacher looking for? What are the weaknesses of this class? Was this the best piece of work those students ever did, so don't they deserve a good comment? You don't build a child's self esteem by getting a piece of work then covering it in red, if they have worked hard and shown improvement- that's what many teachers believe.
if you like a school where the teachers mark every mistake, then go to a school that does that. That is a legitimate way to teach English, but you have to realise that many teachers don't believe that's the right way. So once again, looking for a school is about deciding what you think is right for you.
One more note to- SHSID is a school that has a predominantly Asian expat clientel, so it's obvious that the standard of English will be a little below that of the more "anglo saxon" int. schools.
hautumncloud you were also being very bitchy about typos in my posts. This is an online forum, not a final copy of a published text. Even great authors make silly mistakes- and they have editors to pick the mistakes for them and correct them.Teaching English is not teaching kids to be editors, but to build on the skills THEY have, and to be able to communictae at the right level in the right situation. |
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StMichael
Ranter
Joined: Feb 19, 2005
Posts: 586
Location: Qibao, Shanghai
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
June 08, 2008 - 11:46 PM |
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| 88807 wrote: |
| That is a legitimate way to teach English, but you have to realise that many teachers don't believe that's the right way. |
Hi! My friend from SHSID!
I just want to point out that while many teachers do not believe that is the right way, there are also many teachers that do believe that is the right way.
I have indeed learnt so much from my exposure to the many, many educators around me! |
_________________
Michael Chan www.senseimichael.com |
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hautumncloud
LoopKicker
Joined: Nov 04, 2006
Posts: 912
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June 08, 2008 - 11:51 PM |
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hautumncloud
| Quote: |
No matter how many papers a teacher have a grade a day, there is no excuse for sloppy grading! That is a teacher's job!! As to style of grading, that is a different matter.
And no one is "trying to counter you". Pathetic that this is your first post and it is coming across this way. Even scarier to think that you actually may be representing SHSID in whatever position. |
| 88807 wrote: |
hautumncloud you were also being very bitchy about typos in my posts. This is an online forum, not a final copy of a published text. Even great authors make silly mistakes- and they have editors to pick the mistakes for them and correct them.Teaching English is not teaching kids to be editors, but to build on the skills THEY have, and to be able to communictae at the right level in the right situation. |
If you are talking about my comments about ZIP, No, I was NOT commenting on your typos. Reread again. I was commenting on your comment below if you are the same ZIP id. Hmmm, quite a big differnece from absolutely no puntuation by ZIP to the post by 88807 
ZIP
| Quote: |
| Trying to counter me would be the most pitful thing you have ever done....Oh yeah if you want to be a pure whatever country person then go back to where you came from!! |
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Last edited by hautumncloud on June 08, 2008 - 11:54 PM; edited 1 time in total |
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88807
Lurker
Joined: Oct 15, 2004
Posts: 31
Status: Offline
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June 08, 2008 - 11:53 PM |
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StM. I agree  I think both schoosl of thought have merit to, which is something I've learned from my time in China. Diversity is a good thing |
Last edited by 88807 on June 08, 2008 - 11:56 PM; edited 1 time in total |
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88807
Lurker
Joined: Oct 15, 2004
Posts: 31
Status: Offline
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June 08, 2008 - 11:54 PM |
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Ok hautumncloud, my mistake I was directing that comment at "happyMG". |
Last edited by 88807 on June 09, 2008 - 12:10 AM; edited 1 time in total |
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StMichael
Ranter
Joined: Feb 19, 2005
Posts: 586
Location: Qibao, Shanghai
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
June 08, 2008 - 11:56 PM |
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| 88807 wrote: |
| As to displaying work, if you put work up outside classrooms thats "perfect" (and im assumuing your definition is here a robotic piece of work thats got all the letters crossed and full stops marked), then you are giving the family of the student a "show" piece thats not really indicative of what the child has done in class. That maybe be appropriate for a final edition of a printed publication, but for outside a classroom? |
When I used to teach, the "show" piece was something that the child has already done possibly the third time - all in class. Each time, the teacher would have (or is supposed to!) gone through his mistakes, explain what they were (those pressured for time will do the standard red ink all over the page thingy), and allow the child to rewrite based on the teacher's corrections and suggestions.
This system, called "process writing", was something we learnt as student teachers when exploring the teaching of writing. A good book for reference on this would be "Teaching Children to Read and Write" by Ruddell R B & Ruddell M R (I remembered quoting Ruddell and Ruddell a lot when I was a student teacher - got only a B+ for my essay, unfortunately).
So, by the time a piece gets displayed, it would have been edited at least twice, in a process the teacher hope will internalise the many aspects of grammar and sentence construction into the child. Assuming the theory behind this "process writing" is sound, of course! |
_________________
Michael Chan www.senseimichael.com |
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88807
Lurker
Joined: Oct 15, 2004
Posts: 31
Status: Offline
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June 09, 2008 - 12:02 AM |
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I was alluding to process writing in my comment.
Many teachers put work up outside classrooms to show parents, and other students, what's happening in the class, not just to display the "best work". Again, this is just different approaches by different teachers I guess.
For instance, I have seen history projects displayed with a whole lot of language errors. But the pieces were marked for historical content, and were pieces done by students with really low levels of English. The work was dispalyed to build the kids self esteem, and to recognise the effort they'd put in. |
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StMichael
Ranter
Joined: Feb 19, 2005
Posts: 586
Location: Qibao, Shanghai
Status: Offline
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June 09, 2008 - 12:08 AM |
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The wonderful thing about being human - there are so many ways, so many angles to look at things. |
_________________
Michael Chan www.senseimichael.com |
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hautumncloud
LoopKicker
Joined: Nov 04, 2006
Posts: 912
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June 09, 2008 - 12:21 AM |
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As you may read in between the lines in my post, I am looking more from the angle of 88807 but I do appreciate St Mike's angle as well. Both have their merits and as St Mike commented, it has been debated to death and still being debated.
However, I hope that more would look at things differently than "to expect a perfect" piece of work to be displayed everytime one walks through the hallways of a school.
Another example: When I was a parent volunteer for a grade 2 class, the students were given a project to build a dream home. After 2 weeks, all the children brought their projects to school. My daughter's was one of the least attractive one - NOT because she was less smart but because she did is ALL by herself; sourced for materials, designed, planned, everything. Comparing to her peers who had engineer dads to help, architect mom to coach.....well, the teacher had a very hard time to present grades fairly and how to explain this to the students. The lesson for the teacher was.....to have the students do a planning book IN class and grading to be done on the PROCESS rather than the end product |
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88807
Lurker
Joined: Oct 15, 2004
Posts: 31
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
June 09, 2008 - 12:39 AM |
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| hautumncloud wrote: |
| After 2 weeks, all the children brought their project to school. My daughter's was one of the least attractive one - NOT because she was less smarter but because she did is ALL by herself; sourced for materials, designed, planned, everything. Comparing to her peers who had engineer dads to help, architect mom to coach.....well, the teacher had a very hard time to present grades fairly and how to explain this to the students. The lesson for the teacher was.....to have the students do a planning book IN class and grading to be done on the PROCESS rather than the end product |
That's a very good point. To me, its important to judge each work on it's merits, and encourgae and display work that's been done well, even if it has a few "glitches". In this case hautumncloud your daughters was probably, looking at the teachers criteria, really the best work (because she worked hard, and it was hers).
Schools aren't brochures, or display parades for the top students. Schools are for every student, even if their work isn't "perfect". We need to keep schools as schools, not turn them into glossy showrooms. |
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StMichael
Ranter
Joined: Feb 19, 2005
Posts: 586
Location: Qibao, Shanghai
Status: Offline
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June 09, 2008 - 08:38 AM |
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| hautumncloud wrote: |
| The lesson for the teacher was.....to have the students do a planning book IN class and grading to be done on the PROCESS rather than the end product |
Haha! And a fine lesson the teacher should have learnt indeed! One of the topics in a module I took as a student teacher (long time ago) was on this aspect. I remembered wondering if the multiple edits in the process was the cause for my lecturer still being a "Miss" (unmarried - we used to whisper among ourselves that she had no life, totally dedicated to teaching).
Then we hit the road and realised the importance of the the teacher being involved in the process, guiding and scaffolding the child to the "perfect" product. I grade *both* the process and the product, and have a hand in it. To me, it is as unfair to let the child "do it herself" as it is to have "engineer dads" help out. As the teacher, my role is to teach, and teach I will.
In Singapore, when we first begun the Interdisciplinary Project Work (IPW), having support (or the lack of) was a great concern. Because of that, work is done in class, and the teacher does grade the process using a rubric.
Ultimately, the "perfect" piece of work must be the child's, after learning and using the points given by the teachers. For those of us who have done theses, we would have understood why we need the Prof to give us pointers, then we rewrite, and finally we produce the "perfect" piece of work. It is the same logic behind why I insist on my pupils producing their own "perfect" piece of work.
It is a lot of work from the teacher. I would rather just put a few comments and then display the error-ridden piece of the child's draft (I would never consider the first piece of work to be anything but that) on the notice board. Less work for me. But I just cannot bring myself to do it. It is not fair to the learning of the child.
But there again, I am reopening the debate that has gone on for years, so...
Mwahahah (evil laughter)... |
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Michael Chan www.senseimichael.com |
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hautumncloud
LoopKicker
Joined: Nov 04, 2006
Posts: 912
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June 09, 2008 - 08:58 AM |
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^^ St Mike, I see your point. I like it that you used the phrase "their (student's) perfect piece of work". Above all else, no matter which way the teacher lean towards or what curriculum the school use or what philosophy (this can all go on and no doubt it will - only way we challenge ourselves to improve) - it all boils down to how caring the teacher is. That, I believe can superceed quite a lot. Too, each individual student is different - some enjoy the challenge of getting to perfection, others are encouraged by acknowledgement that their work counts. And I do agree, it is a lot of work. A lot of work to strike the balance between all the education philosophies out there. Hats off to all the caring teachers! |
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StMichael
Ranter
Joined: Feb 19, 2005
Posts: 586
Location: Qibao, Shanghai
Status: Offline
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June 09, 2008 - 09:54 AM |
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Sigh, I really do miss life when I was just a teacher. Why is it that, in order to move on, a salesman must become a sales manager, a receptionist must become a customer service manager, and a teacher an administrator?
While I believe I am doing a good job as an administrator, I cannot help but wonder if I could have done a better job were I to remain just a teacher (lower pay, less prospects).
Oh well. I consider myself now a teacher of teachers (that is how I explain my role to some of my younger pupils). Teachers are a lot harder to teach than pupils though! |
_________________
Michael Chan www.senseimichael.com |
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88807
Lurker
Joined: Oct 15, 2004
Posts: 31
Status: Offline
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June 09, 2008 - 09:56 AM |
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If we are lucky, we can bring the best of each educational philosophy to our kids at these 'international' schools. This would make them truely international not 'overseas' schools, as some of them indeed are.
I still think it's important that schools avoid a showcase mentality. A school is primarily for the kids, not the teachers or parents. There are many reasons why kids work goes up outside a classroom, and it doesn't (nor shouldn't) be just to demonstrate the final draft of a process, or to display "error free" work.
Even in IB history in senior high school, the IB officially dont mind some minor grammatical errors as long as they understand the material and argue critically. Sometimes getting kids obesessively focused on grammar gets in the way of communication. Its all a fine balance, and some time needs to spent focusing on grammar, and some on just expression and appropriate register.
We expect a wordprocessor to print out a perfect neat piece of work with no spelling errors or grammatical mistakes. We expect people to create and to think and to dream. That's what school is for. That is real learning!
And so the debate goes on ) |
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StMichael
Ranter
Joined: Feb 19, 2005
Posts: 586
Location: Qibao, Shanghai
Status: Offline
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June 09, 2008 - 10:03 AM |
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This is the administrator (not teacher) in me speaking.
The showcase mentality can never be avoided. When a parent walks through the corridors, she instinctively looks for certain indications to the school's culture, the school's "production" and the quality of the teaching. The school (or class) that does the "showcase" properly has an advantage.
This is especially so for Asian parents (I am generalising!) and especially for private schools, whether for-profit or not-for-profit. In fact, in Singapore where Principals of government/public schools are judged based on their programmes and results, attracting the best students to their school becomes very important - the showcase mentality is *very* evident there.
There is a reason why I, as an administrator, insists that my teachers put up edited work rather than the raw draft. |
_________________
Michael Chan www.senseimichael.com |
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