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kathie
Lurker
Joined: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 37
Location: NY, US
Status: Offline
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June 06, 2003 - 04:13 AM |
 
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| Post subject: Need help! About this Job offer in Shanghai.. |
hi guys,
Currently I work for a consulting Firm as a resource manager in the states (one of the big 4\') and there\'s an opportunity for me to relocate to SH. The offer is around 12k RMB/m plus 0-30% bonus depends on my performance.. it\'s NOT guaranteed....However, this offer is negociatable.
Since I don\'t know the Chinese labor market well, I was hoping the HR can provide me with a reasonable compensation package based on my skill and work experience. I understand that it would be less than what I am currently getting due to the differences in cost of living between US and China, however, based on the package-12k/m, I was disappointed by the pay cut based on what I am getting now, it\'s too far from what I expected. The resource manager position in China Consulting practice is an excellent opportunity and I am extremely excited about it.
How\'s the Chinese labor market nowadays? How much usually a 4 years experenced makes in Shanghai at big firm? Shall I take this offer?
P.S I do speak good mandarin and some Shanghainese.
Great Thanks!!
kathie
[Edited on 5/6/2003 by kathie]
[Edited on 5/6/2003 by kathie] |
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Michael
Moderator
Joined: Mar 22, 2002
Posts: 6074
Status: Offline
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June 06, 2003 - 10:38 AM |
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| Post subject: Need help! About this Job offer in Shanghai.. |
I guess it really depends on how much you would make if you do your job well on your bonus and how easily the numbers that calc your bonus can be manipulated. 12K is pretty low by itself for relocation. You should at least get what you are getting in the US. You should get a spreadsheet and calc a few different scenarios. |
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Life is make believe, make it up and then believe it. |
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PhatAV8r
Raver
Joined: May 31, 2003
Posts: 384
Location: Qingpu District, SHANGHAI
Status: Offline
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June 06, 2003 - 11:13 AM |
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| Post subject: Need help! About this Job offer in Shanghai.. |
Wait, you are kidding right? You currently work for a BIG 4 consulting firm, and you are going to come to Shanghai on relocation for 12Krmb ($1500USD) per month? First of all, what do you do in your current position. I can\'t think of a single position in a major consulting firm that pays $18K USD per year.
Second, the labor market is fine and $12K is a good salary IF you are native Chinese and want to remain in China. I can\'t believe that you somehow went to the US, got a job with a BIG 4 consulting firm, only to decide to return to China for a position that doesn\'t pay what you are worth in the US. Your skills are more valuable than that, you are being taken advantage of in my opinion, and if you take this position without getting at least your US salary PLUS entry and exit assignment bonuses (no less than one months base pay), and the bonus you mentioned, and a written contract that outlines the repatriation guarantee (I am assuming your intent WASN\'T to return to China for the rest of your career).
That is the most important part, get it in a contract. I am still scratching my head over this whole thing, what is your motive for sacrificing what you have accomplished up to now? Sure, the company can send you to China to work for less money than some WASP 30 year-old with a wife and three kids, and you need to use that to YOUR advantage. NEGOTIATE, and negotitate hard; decide if you want the position more than they want to send you, or if it is the other way around. No matter, remember this, if you are Chinese, if you live in the US, someone either you, or your parents sacrificed a great deal for you to be there. Make it pay off. Don\'t trust that some BIG American company is going to take care of you. That just isn\'t the case. Take care of #1 (YOU) first, get what you WANT to do this job, and make sure that you don\'t say yes until every detail is in writing.
You say you are a Resource Manager for this firm. I would assume then that your base salary is about $40K USD? Using that assumption, if I were a native Chinese making this transition to a localized manager, I wouldn\'t do the job for anything less than this:
$45k Base
0-25% bonus paid quarterly based on quarterly performance goals
Entry/exit bonus (one month base pay)
Relocation allowance (one month base pay)
Moving costs - 100% actual
Housing Stipend - $1000 USD base (Single or 2 adults) + $300 per every child
Education - $5000 per child (that way you can put them in a Chinese international school, homeschool, or whatever)
Medical/Dental - US coverage through Shanghai Worldlink, or 100% actual through Chinese med system.
6 weeks total vacation - 3 weeks acutal + 3 week add-on max of 4 weeks out of China per year. Home leave airfare for you and family members paid by company at coach rate.
That would be my minimum. It isn\'t extravagent for an overseas employee, but it will keep you whole, and it will also leave you feeling like you didn\'t sell yourself short. Just my humble opinion.
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kathie
Lurker
Joined: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 37
Location: NY, US
Status: Offline
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June 06, 2003 - 11:49 AM |
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| Post subject: Need help! About this Job offer in Shanghai.. |
wow.. thanks Michael and PhatAV8r for your posts!
It\'s so nice to have you guys here to share some thoughts and get your valuable opinions. I am flattered by your replies...
Yes, I am still negociating with the China HR manager, and I wont take this job unless they double up the initial offer. I was recommended by our Resource management managing director and asiaPac regional director for this position as a RM in china consulting practice. Everything went OKAY prior we talk about the salary. I am currently receiving $60k in the U.S and that $18k offer is totally an insult to me. I guess my disadvantage is that, I am the one whom requested to relocated.
hey, dont you know that Big 4\'s are famous for being cheap?  )
I will keep you guys updated when my final salary is concluded.
[Edited on 6/6/2003 by kathie] |
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kathie
Lurker
Joined: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 37
Location: NY, US
Status: Offline
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June 06, 2003 - 11:52 AM |
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oh, just got a phone call from Asiapec regional director. He was shocked when he heard about this deal, he\'s now dealing this with China HR for me.
guys.. keep your fingers crossed for me!!
Thx! :casstet: |
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cookie
Barker
Joined: Apr 19, 2003
Posts: 183
Status: Offline
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June 06, 2003 - 12:01 PM |
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Wow. I can\'t believe it either. Speechless. I\'m glad that it sounds like they\'ll sort it out for you. To go from $60K to 12,000RMB...what are they smoking in your China office that they would think it was no big deal to offer that?
I really hope things work out for you! |
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kathie
Lurker
Joined: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 37
Location: NY, US
Status: Offline
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June 06, 2003 - 12:26 PM |
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I guess I don\'t have too much bargin power since I initiated this relocation. But slidding from $60k to $18k it surely hurts my financial situation.. I still have over 20k student loan to pay in the next 10 years.. OMG :casstet:
anyone has or known anyone from the U.S in the same boat as me?
thanks much |
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Brad
Barker
Joined: Apr 02, 2003
Posts: 134
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June 06, 2003 - 01:25 PM |
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nienhoon
Newbie
Joined: Apr 07, 2003
Posts: 1
Location: Malaysia
Status: Offline
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June 06, 2003 - 05:32 PM |
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I would think they are totally taking all the advantages from you. HR manager in China especially the big firm knows very well of the labour market; expat level, semi expat/chinese level, and local level. Some rule of thumb is 50% more than what you get when post overseas. Do forget the workload you will be doing, i bet the works are easily double compare to US, extra working time, etc....no 5:00pm
Should negotiate the terms before leaving for Shanghai!!!!!!  |
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kathie
Lurker
Joined: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 37
Location: NY, US
Status: Offline
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June 06, 2003 - 10:41 PM |
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Thanks to all good hearted people. are you guys now all working in SH? ? Is SARS really going away? How\'s the rent? I will probably need to rent a 1-bd aptment somewhere near Nanjing Road W. if I take this offer...
Any suggestions... ?
[Edited on 6/6/2003 by kathie] |
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kathie
Lurker
Joined: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 37
Location: NY, US
Status: Offline
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June 06, 2003 - 10:42 PM |
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 hey guys most appreciated for sharing your experiences!!
I was hoping to get a fairly amount of salary around 18-20k RMB comparing with the differences in cost of living b/t SH and NY. This postion supposed to be a \'Internal transfer\" instead of a \'local hire\', I was so called \'well-prepared\" to get up to 50% pay cut... Now I need to get at least 50% more based on how much they initial offered-that will be 12k+ 12k*.5=18k that\'s my buttom line and I will take the job right away. My current project (acutally the whole team) is going to be replaced by something new so I will be jobless in August :casstet: as i noted previously, I dont have too much bargin power.. But the China HR donesn\'t really know my situation.
what if I fail to negociate, shall I still take this offer or just go to Shanghai without a job offer and start all over again with job hunting? would I get a better deal by this way? i am so frastrated...
:mad2:
need your comments.... :casstet: |
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PhatAV8r
Raver
Joined: May 31, 2003
Posts: 384
Location: Qingpu District, SHANGHAI
Status: Offline
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June 07, 2003 - 05:59 AM |
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Gee, you earn $60K and would really think of tossing that for work in China? The poster who said you will put in more hours is partially correct. You will be expected to be available when needed, and to work to complete things on your own time sometimes, what else is new. BUT, that kind of cut isn\'t reasonable, I don\'t care if you initiated it. People (including myself) often tell their employer they would like to work in a foreign office, if only to get closer to family, or for travel. In the US we ask to be transfered around the country, and yeah, if you take a DIFFERENT position, you might have to take a cut in pay. But lateral transfers are just that, and even if the budget in the Shanghai office is a little lower, done demean yourself unless you think you have no other options. My opinion is to bargain hard. Stick to your guns, get the Asia Pacific director to really stand up for you. Tell him what you think your lowest cut can be and see what he does. First of all, stop talking RMB. You are employed in the US, working for a US firm, and taking a transfer to a foreign position. If your hearts desire is to be back in Shanghai then I would still stand by my base salary and bonus numbers. And the relocation pieces. Otherwise, hold out to the end, and see what else is around stateside. There are a number of HR manager or HR specialist jobs out there on the web. Look into them before you agree to sacrifice all you have worked for. |
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cookie
Barker
Joined: Apr 19, 2003
Posts: 183
Status: Offline
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June 07, 2003 - 01:56 PM |
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bleep. agree, it\'s not 1992 anymore -- but i also think it depends on the industry. yea, localization is the hot buzz word for the past few years now but i think it depends on the stage of the industry\'s development and the shortage (if any) of expertise.
case in point. retail. just starting to evolve in this landscape. at this stage, our company is still hard pressed to find local managers who understand the dynamics of customer service, customer loyalty, merchandising, visual merchandising and retailing in general. people willing to stick their neck out and try something new. be the industry leader and not follower. take risks. get creative...maximize sales.
those local managers that we do find are almost always returnees who have gone overseas and built up some solid retail experience. when you find people like this (rare) you pay them and you pay them well. not unheard of for us to offer RMB 20,000+ for a local Chinese store manager. i can\'t even get a high caliber market research manager these days for less than RMB 10,000 -- and believe me, i\'ve been trying.
so it depend on the company and the industry. cookie speaks 1st grade level chinese even though her face is chinese. she now gets housing, plane trips home, health insurance and over $70K US/year living/working in shanghai. despite the fact that she\'s only 27 with no MBA and came out to shanghai without a job back in 1999 ...she works damn hard, long hours and took risks on proposing new revenue streams that now pull in 40% of gross revenue for the company. ha ha. i sound like fidel now talking in third person. anyways, not to sound full of myself but i work damn hard and have shown results. hell yea they should pay me as much as i get...and in that respect there\'s nothing wrong with kathie expecting to get what she feels she deserves.
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kathie
Lurker
Joined: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 37
Location: NY, US
Status: Offline
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June 07, 2003 - 10:46 PM |
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hey, thanx all- for those awesome comments!!! thanx a milllion!
agree with cookie that 1992 expat golden era is gone! I also believe what bleep said, that i will not get a better job there hunting... hey bleep, bravo for you dropping an US 85K annual one to go there and ended up in a job only paying 10K RMB a month.
anyway, the offer is on the way, it\'s just a matter of salary negociating which the Asiapec regional director is deaing for me (I had spoken with him and he\'s going to be my site manager and everyone wants me to go there badly, and this position is only for internal transfer, so they won\'t hire someone locally), it would be great to get some extra and the worst scenario, i will take the 12k offer.. it\'s better than nothing :casstet:
I will definitely keep you guys updated once I spoken with them this sunday night (SH monday morning) . let\'s get in touch in august if everhting goes well when I move to SH.
P.S as I noted previous, big 4\'s consultings are famous for being cheap... :casstet: |
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kathie
Lurker
Joined: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 37
Location: NY, US
Status: Offline
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June 07, 2003 - 10:59 PM |
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hey Cookie i\'ve been reading your posts. I feel I am such a looser and far behind.. I took my first offer at IBM after graduated from college in 1999... Imagine.. If I were back to SH in 1999.. then everything would be different... sigh.. I have been spoiled in these 4 years.. short working hrs: 9:30am-5pm.. nice managers and naive colleagues around.. china is different, everything is sophisticated but i am willing to take some challenge!.. probably we can meet up in SH if i end up there in Aug...
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cookie
Barker
Joined: Apr 19, 2003
Posts: 183
Status: Offline
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June 08, 2003 - 01:06 AM |
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hey kathie...i don\'t think it\'s a matter of if you had stayed here or gone to the US in 1999. life is so damn unpredictable, you never know where the road will take you.
so with that...i think it was an excellent decision for you to accept a job offer at IBM overseas after graduation. it also sounds to me like you work hard and have a lot of drive and ambition -- also open minded. even if you end up settling for RMB 12K...once you get here and start networking, it won\'t be long before a headhunter calls you up and offers you an opportunity that you\'ll be happy with. the point is, you never know. so with that, best of luck to you and hope things work out! |
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kathie
Lurker
Joined: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 37
Location: NY, US
Status: Offline
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June 08, 2003 - 01:39 AM |
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hey cookie thanks for your reply. I came to the states at age of 14. now I am so looking forward to working/living in china again after 12 years overseas...
yes, you never know where the road will take you.. and i believe that when the universe takes something away, it usually replaces it with something else |
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PhatAV8r
Raver
Joined: May 31, 2003
Posts: 384
Location: Qingpu District, SHANGHAI
Status: Offline
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June 09, 2003 - 06:25 AM |
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Hey, this is my second rotation since 1997, and PhatAv8r is western face, and decent Chinese. My education is MBA International Business, Industrial Management, and while I recognize that the BIG packages are going by the wayside, I disagree that there aren\'t positions paying top-dollar for GOOD management skills. Maybe I am seeing this from the wrong level since my last position was GM over a JV, this position will be GM for China Operations with a manufacturing facility, distribution center, and 4 sales offices. I believe in localization, but any threat to my position won\'t come until local managers learn to think like the people who run MNC\'s in the US and Europe. They want the company run using the same codes of ethics, accounting, and manufacturing standards. They don\'t want local managers who \'skim the till\', \'pad their pockets\', or in any other way missuse their position for personal gain.
Kathie, I have said all along, you do what your heart desires, Bleep is right about money and life. I am willing to work in China because I already work the long hours, but I can enjoy my family time because of the less STRESSFUL lifestyle in China. If you are coming home, you WILL ultimately have to accept what the market will pay for a manager. Sounds like these guys (bleep & cookie) are more up to speed on that level of HR needs in China than I am.
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kathie
Lurker
Joined: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 37
Location: NY, US
Status: Offline
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June 14, 2003 - 10:23 AM |
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i accepted the offer, so i will be heading to China and start to work on 8/4. looking forward to meeting you guys there! keep in touch!
ciao
kathie |
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robby
Squeeker
Joined: Apr 08, 2003
Posts: 13
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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June 14, 2003 - 03:11 PM |
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just saw this thread, congrats on taking the offer.
i was interested in this cuz i\'m actually in an identical situation. graduated in 1999 with an MS, have been working in the bay area the last 4 years, last making 85k. guess what, i just accepted an offer to work in shanghai for 15k rmb/mo, i start july 7th.
i think it\'s worthwhile if you value the experience of working and living abroad. or in our case, to go back to asia to work after immigrating to the US. timing\'s everything, it\'ll be hard to do something like this after, say, we settle down in the states with a family and a house. then there\'s the question of money... i\'m from NYC, i know that after taxes and rent and food, there\'s not a lot left. i was shocked to figure out my tiny salary in shanghai actually offer me *almost* as much cash savings every month as my cushy 85k salary here.
so anyways, good luck with your job. if it makes you feel better, i have two friends in my situation going to shanghai taking huge paycuts as well. so, it\'s not that crazy!
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joburgent25shanghai
Seeker
Joined: June 13, 2003
Posts: 71
Location: Shanghai Parksonmall
Status: Offline
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June 14, 2003 - 03:37 PM |
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Guys I am afraid the huge pay cut is because you guys here are all Chinese face, right?!(and SH HR really dislikes returnees, UNless u r investors. ) A White retirenees or college kid, who teaches highschool kids for few hours downtown SH would be offered 13k minimum. I assisted them I know fore sure. I am confident you guys here are all hardworking professionals that sure know a lot more than an average teacher!!
Cookie, have read some of your posts. Love them. Recently I have been researching into Retail sector, ie. Franchise. Do you have any job openings there downtown? Sales/marketing
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Conference/Seminar Telesalesman looking for carreer shift. Intership of MNC good. |
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robby
Squeeker
Joined: Apr 08, 2003
Posts: 13
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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June 14, 2003 - 04:36 PM |
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jobsurgent25, yes i am chinese, born in taiwan, came to the states when i was 9. this is my first time in china, so i guess i am in for some surprises about business practices. there may very well be a pay differential based on race. however at least in my case i dont believe so. i will be working for a multinational IC company, 1/3 of the company is foreign, both returnees and westerners. i heard the western employees get paid on the same scale - local pay.
my view is that expat packages and pay advantages certainly exist, but you have to have the unique skills or irreplaceable experience from abroad. otherwise, you are subjected to the same pay scale as locals, wester or chinese face. of course that is just my idealistic view... i will find out once i get there.
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joburgent25shanghai
Seeker
Joined: June 13, 2003
Posts: 71
Location: Shanghai Parksonmall
Status: Offline
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June 14, 2003 - 05:37 PM |
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Every business in SH is MNC by nature, the local economy engine. They hire Shanghainese HR people indefinately(Shanghai HR of course keeps hiring Shanghainese) who are annoyed of the expat package. (They believe they are the center of the universe, right?!) These people are nuts to degrees meaning one can get a high scale base pay with a BSc. degree from an Europian community college, guranteed, although the candidate may hardly speak Eng. (they spent four years Yahoo chat right?) This happens ALL the time. Nuts maybe not. By recruiting idiots, only make the Shanghainese HR position safe. SH has long history of colony life. They KNOW how to play the foreign investors, right?
U r from Taiwan kinddof, that would be an issue, definately. Sure Shanghainese hates Beijingnese, but locals have no problem defending the line. After all, besides big government SH, what culture they know about?! Many Shanghainese return home with Western education who are aware of the issues, yes! But sadly, there is always a limit...
The Shanghainese lady on this board can\'t wait to attack me, my spellings. LOL. What else they know? |
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Conference/Seminar Telesalesman looking for carreer shift. Intership of MNC good. |
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cookie
Barker
Joined: Apr 19, 2003
Posts: 183
Status: Offline
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June 14, 2003 - 07:28 PM |
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Robby -- are you a US citizen? I\'m asking because your 15K/month will stretch a lot farther if you can stay out of the US for more than 330 days. So glad they still have that expat tax exemption! It\'s saved me A LOT of money the past 4 years living/working here in Shanghai.
I\'ve got a sister in SF...equally as expensive as NYC. She\'s got her Harvard MBA and makes a nice over 100K/year salary with Peoplesoft. Yet, after you take away her income tax, high SF apartment rent, car insurance, car payments, gas, etc etc...I have a higher savings rate just taking advantage of living here in Shanghai and keeping my costs down.
My secret to saving money in Shanghai...get a great ayi who cooks well and take a little lunchbox to work. It beats those nasty RMB 5 \"he fans\" that are always a hit and miss with my stomach. Having an ayi who cooks and leaves a nice dinner when you get home helps me save a ton of money eating out expat style all the time with friends.
My other suggestions for saving money effortlessly in Shanghai...get a roomate and share a nice local housing apartment. There are some great ones at RMB 5,000 to RMB 6,000 range. I used to share a place in the French Concession area with my friend. The both of us just paid RMB 2,500 each for rent but lived in the middle of everything. Taxi money adds up too, so it\'s great to live near the subway or at least a RMB 10 taxi ride from work.
JobUrgent25Shanghai -- you\'re so right on about some HR departments. Thank god I was a direct referral 3 years ago when i applied for my job. Bypassed those power hungry girlies altogehter and interviewed straight with my boss. At first they weren\'t too happy about not being able to exercise their HR power on me but now that i report directly to our CEO, they\'re scared of me. he he he. HR people can be ruthless. A lot of peoples\' resumes always end in the trash. The first ones to go in are local expats applying for jobs. The second to go in the trash are non-Shanghainese. It really sucks. I\'ve had to hire some new Marketing Assistants recently for my team. I wanted to play the internal politics correctly and at least give these girls a chance to find me some good candidates...they wasted an entire afternoon by lining me up with interview of girls that were seriously NOT qualified.
in my next life, i want to be a bitchy HR woman with a chip on my shoulder. that should be lots of fun. |
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dyniquee
Post Boaster
Joined: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 4780
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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June 14, 2003 - 10:08 PM |
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| Post subject: Need help! About this Job offer in Shanghai.. |
| Quote: |
| Every business in SH is MNC by nature... |
How about the newspaper stand outside my apartment? all those fashion vendors in Xiangyang market? Fudan University? Shanghai NO.1 Hospital etc etc etc...Oh maybe your MNC is not Multi-National Company? So please enlighten us what your MNCs stand for??? 
| Quote: |
| They hire Shanghainese HR people indefinately(Shanghai HR of course keeps hiring Shanghainese) ... |
It is common sense that HR mgr and Sales mgr in most MNCs have to be localized since such positions requires: 1. sound understanding and knowledge about the local market and 2. excellent communication skills with locals.
I believe the reason that Shanghai HR people keeps hiring Shanghainese is something about company cost and policy while not stupid localism thing.
Lesson: Do NOT take everything for granted and before using \"of course\", do use your brain, if you have one, for a few seconds, or, if a few seconds are not enough, a few minutes even a few hours if necessarily! :casstet:
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| (They believe they are the center of the universe, right?!) |
NO! You believe so?!? Then we are soooooo FLATTERED!!! 
| Quote: |
| These people are nuts to degrees meaning one can get a high scale base pay with a BSc. degree from an Europian community college, guranteed, although the candidate may hardly speak Eng. (they spent four years Yahoo chat right?) This happens ALL the time. |
Agreed! You are not sooooo untaughtable aren\'t you?!? Dyniquee never bothers to attack idiots that she thinks are uncivilized and untaughtable. Just so you know, it is really your honor to be attacked by Dyniquee!
| Quote: |
| Nuts maybe not. By recruiting idiots, only make the Shanghainese HR position safe... |
Are you insulting all those GMs of those MNCs in Shanghai? or, is it because you once were kicked out by some Shanghainese HR because of your poor spellings in your cover-letter and they also spot your problem with logics and reasoning during the interview?!? No worry post more on this forum and I am sure you will get enough corrections, sometimes in form of attacks, that help to develop your IQ and EQ into a normal level!
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| SH has long history of colony life. They KNOW how to play the foreign investors, right? |
SH has NOT-SO-LONG history of HALF-COLONIAL life if compared to HK. Seems you are not only ignorant about business but also history. Shame!
ARe you suggesting Beijing become another colonial city of some western coutry so that they know how to play the foreign investors?!? Stupid!!!
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| U r from Taiwan kinddof, that would be an issue, definately. Sure Shanghainese hates Beijingnese, but locals have no problem defending the line.... |
It sounds more like joburgent25shanghai hates Shanghainese esp. Shanghainese HR mgr in MNC...I am Shanghainese and I DO have A LOT friends that are from Beijing, so what do you say you narrow-minded, small-hearted, idiotish but young handsome man from North?!?
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| The Shanghainese lady on this board can\'t wait to attack me, my spellings. |
Yes, I am shanghainese..yes, definitely a LADY..Thanks! Loved the way you address me and loved your attitude... ...yes, I attacked you because you asked for it...yes, your spellings but not only spellings but also ignorance..
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| LOL. What else they know? |
See all above! Keep smiling dude if it is no longer a LOL now!!
D
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Entangled Quantum Effect's at its best. |
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