| Author |
Message |
almor
Newbie
Joined: Apr 04, 2006
Posts: 3
Status: Offline
|
 Posted:
Apr 04, 2006 - 04:05 PM |
 
|
| Post subject: Big family = expensive in Shanghai? |
Hello,
I’ve been offered a position in Shanghai and I’m trying to figure out the real value of the package offered.
My problem (or blessing!) is that I have a wife and four fabulous/evil kids – all of whom will need to attend one of the international schools. I understand that that will cost around US$8k each (reach for drink and take very large sip). I have also been told that a three bed house of about 150 SQM will cost around US$3000 if it is close to the schools.
The package offered is an all inclusive one (take the cash and make your choice!) so I will also have to cover health insurance, flights home, travel, food, personal entertainment and Nike trainers. We are what you might call lower middle class British who enjoy a pretty good standard of living (presently in Hobart, Oz). You know the type, wouldn't normally send the kids to private school, live in a decent but not top area, drive a 4 year old Landrover etc.... The position is as a GM in a start up for a FTSE 250 listed company (not that that counts for much as they are as tight as a gnat’s proverbial!).
Does anybody have any idea as to what the real cost of living will be for a big family, and what I will need the before tax salary to be to enjoy a semi reasonable standard of living.
Basically, I’m hearing conflicting stories that Shanghai is about the same cost as a major US/UK city (London, NY, Chicago etc..), or that it is a fair bit more expensive (eg: 25 to 50% more). Does anybody have any thoughts? I just don’t want to commit and then repent at leisure.
Thank you in advance and, yes, I know this is one of those “how long is a bit of string” questions but I'm just interested so be kind!
Almor |
|
|
|
|
CoffeeHawk_0
Board Buddha
Joined: July 14, 2005
Posts: 14380
|
| Posted:
Apr 04, 2006 - 04:59 PM |
|
|
you'll get a lot of comments on this, but my 2 cents is:
1. the rent you state is too low, a nice 2 bedroom apt can cost $3000 (for a foreigner, half that for a local), a 3 bedroom villa in the expat areas close to the schools is ~$4500 to $5500 as a minimum
2. food will be cheap if you eat local foods even if you hire an ayi (cook/maid), if you buy western brands it will be minimum 2X the cost
3. private transportation is as ridiculous as the real estate prices, ask that your company provides a driver and car/van.
4. utilities are expensive
5. you may find higher quaility things and brands are as expensive or more expensive here. If you're only here for a couple of years and can skimp on your lifestlye, then you can get by for cheaper on household goods and clothing.
6. You won't be alone, there's many families here and many people willing to help, good luck! |
|
|
 |
|
benkloepfer
PopStar
Joined: Sep 02, 2004
Posts: 1042
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Apr 04, 2006 - 05:40 PM |
|
|
Funny, I don't think that the utilities are expensive except for the long-distance phone bills.
I'm not qualified to comment on the price of expat villas, but I can tell you that a nice 2 bedroom apartment is much cheaper than what Coffeehawk said. We have a nice place in downtown Pudong that's about 100m2 for round $1000 a month . |
|
|
|
|
|
Kiwi
Post Boaster
Joined: May 07, 2003
Posts: 4763
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Apr 04, 2006 - 05:41 PM |
|
|
I don't agree that every foreigner here is paying twice what a local would for their rent. Last apartment I moved out of the new (local) tenants ended up paying about 20% more than what I had been paying. Put some extra time into househunting and you can get some good deals. It helps alot if you search in Chinese rather than English though, so find a Chinese speaker to do some research for you via Google.
And while the areas around the international schools are expensive, there are still some cheap and quite livable complexes out that way (i.e. under US$500 for a 2 bedroom apartment - the buildings look tatty, and all your neighbors will be Chinese, but some of the interiors are well renovated and very livable). |
_________________
[offensive signature removed by ADMIN] |
|
|
|
|
Joecrappie
Reacher
Joined: Apr 08, 2005
Posts: 209
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Apr 04, 2006 - 06:27 PM |
|
|
Your low on the international schools. Except for a couple of options (SMIC is one), the international schools are going to run you about $12-$20K USD per kid depending on how your kids are and how many you are sending to the same school (I think some offer a little break if you have three kids or over enrolled). As for the housing, if you are looking at truly expat complexes, $3k USD is a minimum number. As Kiwi said, if you're willing to go a little more local, you can save quite a bit.
Having said all this, once you get past the schooling and housing, I've found that everything is considerably less expensive than back home. |
|
|
|
|
|
Michael
Moderator
Joined: Mar 22, 2002
Posts: 5274
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Apr 04, 2006 - 06:27 PM |
|
|
If you do not do a villa, but live in a hi rise.. you should be able to get a much better rate that US$3000 - even close to schools. Its the single family houses ( villas) that are expensive. A friend of mine just got a 178 sq m furnished 18 fl that was pretty nice for 5000 RMB a month. I live in a furnished 135 sq 3 BR 2 bath with a decent large kitchen including oven in a decent building downtown.. washer and dryer for 5500 RMB.
There are few groups who have decided to do homeschooling here as an alternative to the high price of international schools.
Local Food is cheap and as long as you stick that mostly and just occasionally supplement with your fav imported goodies and don't eat out every night, you will save a lot of money there.
For us .. living in Shanghai has been MUCH cheaper than living in the US. |
|
|
|
|
yu888
Board Deity
Joined: Jan 25, 2003
Posts: 17973
Location: ZhongShanParkArea SH
|
| Posted:
Apr 04, 2006 - 06:41 PM |
|
|
The cost of living for your family can vary greatly depend upon many factors including how flexible you are on where you live, how set in your ways on having to have western standards and foods, for example.
A decent 4 bedroom 3 bath 200+sm penthouse apartment near good transit like 3 metro lines within the inner circle but not downtown with basic western amenities in a decent but not high end housing community can be found for as little as $2000USD. A 2 bedroom place in that same community can be found ofr around $750 USD. A Villa or freestanding home in the suburbs will run more since then you are getting the yard, and liekly the convenience of proximity to the schools. But many schools run buses for picking up students from the nicer apartment complexes throughout downtown.
Food will be cheaper here than most places. Fresh veggies from the wet-markets can be several times cheaper than the ones you find in the supermarkets here so teh range can vary.
Transport is mostly public, but you can arrange a driver and car from probably less than $2000USD a month. Really should be the company's expense. Otherwise,. public trasit and taxis werk if you are in town.
Overall, from my experience it costs at least 30% less than it does to live in San Francisco area, my personal reference point. Hope that helps. |
_________________
Thoughts & updates about Shanghai On my Blog for more details:Random Thoughts about Living in Shanghai...and more |
|
 |
|
joycetze
Squeeker
Joined: June 15, 2003
Posts: 10
Location: Puxi
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Apr 04, 2006 - 06:49 PM |
|
|
The international schools are the prohibative cost in Shanghai--as with everything else in this town, it is a business. Most run US$30K/year/child! (ie Dulwich College, British Int'l School, Yew Chung Int'l School, Singapore Int'l, if you want your children to continue with the English system). Usually, a GM package pays for your childrens' schooling. The middle-level managers are sending their children to newer schools that run between US$4K-8K/year and you risk good-poor academics. Check out That's Shanghai website www.thatssh.com, and City Weekend Shanghai http://www.cityweekend.com.cn/en/shanghai/subjects/entertainment/commu nity
All schools have bussing to&fro, so where you live is not a major problem. You can find nice new housing for US$1000-sky is the limit. Find a local Chinese real estate agent familiar with expat expectations and go house hunting with a Chinese friend who knows how to bargain. Otherwise you will be ripped off. There are so many nice highrise apts now, it's almost a glut.
Good luck! |
|
|
|
|
|
Magnolia
Board Biatch
Joined: June 01, 2004
Posts: 31071
|
| Posted:
Apr 04, 2006 - 06:52 PM |
|
|
i agree that finding a larger apartment will be less expensive than a villa. it also depends on what part of the city you will reside... close to schools basically means pudong or hong qiao. the price of the schools seems low to me also, most seem to be considerably higher; many also have a waiting list so it may be worth it to begin your investigations into the individual schools now. if two of the kids are able to share a room, then you may be able to find a three-bedroom apartment because it seems to price skyrockets for four and five bedroom places. however, be sure to see the place in person as oftentimes the third bedroom is miniscule.
shanghai can be considerably less expensive than major cities in many ways... but there are also things that are extremely pricey (USD8 for a box of imported cereal compared to USD2 for a local version of USD4 for a german version... i have no idea why german goods are such a good deal). transportation in the city is very inexpensive, but note that in many areas of pudong and hong qiao you are restricted to taxi and buses as the metro system does not offer full coverage. insurance... just be thankful you are not american... the rates are ridiculous. there are several agencies in town that can help prepare quotes for you based on your specifics.
if there are some contacts for schools, housing compounds or insurance that anyone can help you with to get some real numbers, please let us know. |
_________________
BOYCOTT BENSON SALON |
|
|
|
|
joycetze
Squeeker
Joined: June 15, 2003
Posts: 10
Location: Puxi
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Apr 04, 2006 - 06:56 PM |
|
|
OOPS!! My mistake/typo on the pricetag of an int'l education in Shanghai. It generally runs US$20,000/yr/child. And there are some discounts for families with more than one child. |
|
|
|
|
|
MIexpat
Reacher
Joined: July 30, 2004
Posts: 324
Location: dongbei
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Apr 04, 2006 - 07:08 PM |
|
|
|
|
|
almor
Newbie
Joined: Apr 04, 2006
Posts: 3
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Apr 05, 2006 - 07:29 PM |
|
|
I may as well just glug from the bottle!
Shanghai just seems prohibitively expensive. Great for singles, couples or the one kid/preschool family - but at $15 to $20k for primary school education and $4k pcm upward for accomodation that isn't in a high rise (and young kids sure like that green stuff called grass), the package would need to be around $250k. And the company can probably get someone else for less.
Anyways, thanks for your advice. I wish you all a lot of luck... but keep the contraceptives handy and pray that the blackouts aren't too long!
I'll check back in a few days to see if anybody else has any other advice before I turn it down.
Almor |
|
|
|
|
|
StMichael
Ranter
Joined: Feb 19, 2005
Posts: 575
Location: Qibao, Shanghai
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Apr 05, 2006 - 08:53 PM |
|
|
Shanghai is prohibitively expensive mainly because of the housing and the schooling. I'm effectively bilingual and generally biliterate (I can read but have some problems recalling the characters from memory), so I live among the upper-middle class Chinese in the suburbs. It's a 143 sqm 3BR with a nice yard, jacuzzis, large screen TVs, large aquarium (my kids fell in love with that, so...) for only RMB4500.
My maid is hired for RMB1200 a month. My wife home-schools so schooling is not a problem for my children (she runs a home-school group and joins in with another in the city). My company provides transport to and from work for my school near the Xupu Bridge. Ultimately it's the kind of living standard you want to settle for (I don't crave for Singaporean or western food, and Chinese food is OK with me).
Interestingly, many of the westerners in the other homeschool group homeschools for precisely the same reason you might want to - they have large families (3-8 kids! EIGHT kids...wow...). I suppose if this is going to be a short-term posting (you are expected to rotate back) good for your resume and future, why not try it? If it's going to be long-term, you may really have to think twice. |
_________________
Michael Chan www.senseimichael.com |
|
|
|
|
tnmom
LoopKicker
Joined: Mar 04, 2004
Posts: 916
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Apr 06, 2006 - 10:29 PM |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Great for singles, couples or the one kid/preschool family - but at $15 to $20k for primary school education and $4k pcm upward for accomodation that isn't in a high rise (and young kids sure like that green stuff called grass), the package would need to be around $250k. And the company can probably get someone else for less. |
Depends on the job I suppose, but there are many expat families here and the international schools are fairly full - some with waiting lists. Most of the expats I know don't have a lump sum salary that has to cover everything - they get a salary in line with the job even if it was in the home country then on top of that they will get schools, housing, transportation, home leave, and some get R&R trips, cost of living differentials, tax equalization and hardship premiums. |
|
|
|
|
|
StMichael
Ranter
Joined: Feb 19, 2005
Posts: 575
Location: Qibao, Shanghai
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Apr 06, 2006 - 10:55 PM |
|
|
Some expatriates like me don't even get very generous allowances. I remembered speaking to one of my friends (a VP in one of the banks here) and he was griping about his 5000 housing allowance being less than his peers in the other banks. I made a remark that made him really count his blessings - I'll be *very* glad to have RMB5000 housing allowance (hint: I got a small fraction of that). And all the while he was thinking of USD5000! |
_________________
Michael Chan www.senseimichael.com |
|
|
|
|
expatmom
Newbie
Joined: Apr 07, 2006
Posts: 4
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Apr 07, 2006 - 10:29 PM |
|
|
Don't do it unless they offer you a very generous package with all the extras provided. We also have 4 children and even aside from the fabulously expensive international schooling (paid for by the company) there are many other costs of raising a large family in Shanghai. Leasing a car large enough for everybody and hiring the driver will set you back US$1500 a month. Then there are the sports classes, the expat sports leagues, music lessons, etc. etc. And cereal really does costs US$8 a box. Yes, avoiding imported products will cut down on your food bill but, speaking from experience, the kids still want their Cheerios! |
|
|
|
|
|
almor
Newbie
Joined: Apr 04, 2006
Posts: 3
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Apr 08, 2006 - 08:13 AM |
|
|
Dear all,
Thanks for all the advice. I'll ask for a more realistic package as we really would like to experience Shanghai. We're not interested in living a bloated life but an interesting one with a base level of comfort. We have had really good experiences living/working in UK, NZ, UAE, USA and now Tasmania so we're not worried about the whole living abroad thing but it just seems that there might be other interesting experiences that are available elsewhere for a lot less.
Doesn't anybody buy/import 7 seater people carriers/SUVs for their families? I've driven in South America and Italy, and the Chinese can't be any worse than the Latinos.
We would consider homeschooling but we've had some experience of it when first in Oz. My wife isn't keen on becoming a tutor for such a wide spread of kids (2, 6, 8 and 9). It would be good if I could convince her but there you go. And I ain't sending my kids to boarding school for someone else to bring up.
Food I'm not worried about as I'd eat good Chinese over Euro/American any day!
I guess we'll have to do a bit of horse trading on the deal and a bit more research/thinking.
Once again, thx for the advice. I'll check this post again in a few days.
Almor |
|
|
|
|
|
tnmom
LoopKicker
Joined: Mar 04, 2004
Posts: 916
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Apr 08, 2006 - 08:59 AM |
|
|
| Quote: |
Doesn't anybody buy/import 7 seater people carriers/SUVs for their families?
|
The popular car is the Buick minivan - made right here in Shanghai. Of course there are also Honda and Toyota vans but you see more silver Buicks at the school than any other car. |
|
|
|
|
|
expatmom
Newbie
Joined: Apr 07, 2006
Posts: 4
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Apr 08, 2006 - 03:21 PM |
|
|
Almor,
There are plenty of minivans available here but trust me you won't want to drive one yourself. The traffic is unbelievable and they drive very recklessly. Not necessarily faster than in Italy and South America but with precious little attention to road signs etc. Stop signs, red lights...just a suggestion. The other day we made a right turn and nearly crashed into a bus that was driving on the wrong side of the street. The $1500US/month car budget that I mentioned earlier was for a minivan. Bear in mind that that price is for about 40 hours a week which means that overtime is a given as you will undoubtedly need the car on weekends too.
You will need a comfortable housing allowance so that you live someplace with enough room for the kids to run around. The places where you've lived before have nice clean parks and playgrounds, beautiful playing fields etc. You will have a hard time finding that here unless you live in one of the nicer expat compounds.
You should ask your company to bring you and your wife over to see what you are getting yourself into before making any decisions. I know that you said that you do not want to live a "bloated" life but you will not be able to replicate your lifestyle in Australia without a healthy package. I'm not talking about a cushy expat life, I'm talking about safe transportation for you and your family, a clean safe place for the kids to live and play, a quality education and enough money to leave Shanghai from time to time for holidays, because, believe me, you will want to get out for everyone's sanity.
Best of luck with your decision. |
|
|
|
|
|
biggles
Newbie
Joined: Apr 26, 2006
Posts: 8
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Apr 26, 2006 - 03:38 PM |
|
|
Hello
I would suggest that you really investigate your package. A friend of mine here is pregnant with her 6th child! And her friend has got 8. They seem to live comfortably as far as I know. Schools are not going to be less than 20k each a year. One of the schools has actually upped its price so make sure you are fully aware of that.
Villas (you are going to need one) depends of course on where you live. The closer you are to Jin Qiao, the more expensive it will be. |
|
|
|
|
|
lostkiwi
Squeeker
Joined: Apr 26, 2006
Posts: 12
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Apr 26, 2006 - 04:41 PM |
|
|
I've got a 7 year old paying $22k and a 2 year old paying $18k in school fees for next year. |
|
|
|
|
|
Andreas
Board Royalty
Joined: Feb 27, 2004
Posts: 6332
Location: 31 N 121 E
|
| Posted:
Apr 26, 2006 - 05:38 PM |
|
|
| almor wrote: |
| I've driven in South America and Italy, and the Chinese can't be any worse than the Latinos. |
  You would be surprised. The Chinese are absolutely the worst drivers on the planet. I have been driving in Latin America also. As well as in a lot of southeast Asian countries. It's nothing compared with the irrational chaos you find here. The strange thing is that compared to let's say 10 years ago, in some places it is actually getting worse. Not because the growing number of cars, but the reckless driving and total lack of any basic social skills. |
_________________
If it has tits, tires, or a transom, there's gonna be issues! |
|
|
|
|
lazyyorkie
LoopKicker
Joined: Apr 20, 2006
Posts: 990
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Apr 27, 2006 - 12:37 PM |
|
|
Correct me if i'm wrong coz i often am but, dont you need a Chinese drivers licence to drive here? |
|
|
|
|
|
Andreas
Board Royalty
Joined: Feb 27, 2004
Posts: 6332
Location: 31 N 121 E
|
| Posted:
Apr 27, 2006 - 12:49 PM |
|
|
You are right, you will have to get a local license. No big deal, only it costs some time. There have been a number of threads about this subject recently. |
_________________
If it has tits, tires, or a transom, there's gonna be issues! |
|
|
|
|
TXMOM
Raver
Joined: Mar 20, 2003
Posts: 445
Location: Shanghai
|
| Posted:
May 22, 2006 - 02:33 AM |
|
|
I know you spoke in terms of your "before tax" salary in your initial posting, so you are probably aware of this issue, but don't forget to consider tax issues - Chinese income taxes are pretty high, the last I checked - up to a 45% marginal tax rate? There are tax tables posted somewhere on this site, I think.
I don't know what kind of tax rates you're used to back home, but as tnmom mentioned, many expats get "tax equalization" benefits so they don't end up paying more in taxes here than they would have paid in their home country (i.e., the company covers any difference in taxes).
Also, unless the laws have changed recently, the US gives citizens working abroad a dollar-for-dollar tax credit on their US income taxes for Chinese income taxes paid (in other words, you get a dollar credit applied to your US tax burden for every dollar in taxes you paid to China), I don't know if the same is true for your country or if you will face some sort of double-taxation on income earned here?
Good luck with your decision. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
Forum FAQ
Search
Preferences
Watched Topics
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
