| Author |
Message |
thomasnils
Squeeker
Joined: Aug 02, 2006
Posts: 11
Status: Offline
|
  Posted:
Aug 02, 2006 - 05:44 AM |
 
|
| Post subject: Expat package for an engineer - usual newbie question |
Hi there,
I am a newbie here who possibly move to Shanghai by the end of this year. My (usual) question is about the expat package. I have checked the forums and found some helpfull information already, but most of the posters seemed to be from the US where it looks like the companies are more generous.
I am a German engineer, and would like to get some information from other European/German expats about what is usual - what else to ask. I work for one of the largest German automotive parts producers. Job would be to lead a department which consists of about 10 chinese engineers, training of the staff, contact and technologie transfer from our German headquarter, customer relation concerning technical problems, maybe some coordiantion with our Korean plant - quite an interesting job. My background is a master degree in engineering, about 10 years in the company, but no responsability for personel yet. Worked with several Asian customers before.
Standard expat package of my company:
-relocation allowance 3000 Euro
-2 flights home annulay, to be combined with business trips if possible
-transport of my stuff to China and back
-real estate agents fee in China and back home
-pay rise 10% 
-salary will be recalcualted based on my previous salary, longer working hours and so on but I don't have the offer yet - what would be the normal pay for a job like that?
-housing allowance - but how much is still unclear
What I would like to get additionally:
-appartment in French Concession - 2 bedrooms, all housing fees paied
-taxi fees to and from work (about 30 min)
-keep my appartment in Germany (cost "only" 550 Euros/month because I have got lots of stuff that I dont want to carry to china and back like books, magazines, some antic furniture...this would save hotel costs for the time that I would be in Germany on business trips)
Is that realistic to ask for? Any help for my negociations would be highly appreciated! Things are moving fast now, maybe I have to make a decision within the next weeks.
Thanks Nils |
|
|
|
|
thomasnils
Squeeker
Joined: Aug 02, 2006
Posts: 11
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Aug 05, 2006 - 02:21 AM |
|
|
Hey, nobody out there to help me?
( |
|
|
|
|
|
horsemandk
StreetBeater
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
Posts: 2241
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Aug 05, 2006 - 09:20 AM |
|
|
If you get a German salary and then a raise of 10% there is nothing more you should ask for taking into consideration that you already got a package. The salaries here are low and so are the prices. You can live as a king for a European salary except if you want a fancy house downtown, that will cost you 3-5000,-. USD a month 
You should however ask for overtime pay, because you're going to work your ass off here trying to make the Chinese do their jobs. 8 hour work days here for expats are very - very rare especially those getting high salaries! |
_________________
Those parts of the system that you can hit with a hammer (not advised) are called hardware; those program instructions that you can only curse at are called software. |
|
 |
|
thomasnils
Squeeker
Joined: Aug 02, 2006
Posts: 11
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Aug 05, 2006 - 11:58 PM |
|
|
Yes, thank you for the advise, the overtime should be in the calculation. My colleague who is doing a somilar job in South Korea spends about 12 h in the office every day (well that's not my intention).
Maybe you have no clear idea of "German salaries". I am within the normal payscale of my state in the south of Germany (about 95% of my colleagues are paied within this payscale). The highest level is 7 (which is only granted to team leaders=Gruppenleiter). Salaries higher than the payscale (that means higher than about 5500 Euros/month based on a 40 h week) are only granted to department leaders (responsible for 20...50 people) or higher level which are really only a few people.
I receive level 6/4 which is about 2000 Euro monthly net income (after income tax, health/ pension/ unemployment insurance)/ 4000 Euro gross income (high taxes here if you are single). There is no such thing like a big annual bonus in my company. In all I get 13,2 month paied a year, so thats a net income of 26400 Euro or 33000 US$ (all based on 35 hours/week). As mentioned before, the rent here for my nice 2 bedroom flat (building 10 years old) including heating and water is 525 Euro/ 650 US$ monthly.
I know that BMW/Mercedes pay about 10%...20% more for the same job but in Stuttgart/Munich the rents are much higher and in the end you won't have more money. One of my colleagues worked for BMW before but started here as he said in Munich he will never be able to own a house but here in the "countryside" he can.
According my company guidelines, salary in another country will be calculated based on my net home income, +10%, +X% hardship allowance + X% adjustment for taking a better position...as it it holiday periode now here, I think I won't get the final offer until mid-september...but then it has to go fast as i am supposed to start in SH in November or December. I have been to Shanghai already on a business trip and found out that going to restaurants/bars is much more expensive as in Germany. Weizenbier Erdinger was 7 Euro in the "Hofbräuhaus Shanghai" which is 3 Euro here. I think when you go for dinner to one of the usual places, for 2 people you won't get away with less than 4...500 Yuan which is twice as much as in Germany.
With the help of an old friend, i got hold of the internal guidelines from his company (one of the largest in Germany, maybe the largest) for expats in China which are very clear. I think I will use this document for my discussion here as it takes into account the Shanghai real estate market, local taxes/holidays/overtime and so on.
But still I would highly appreciate if someone (maybe from Germany, too) would give me an idea how much my position in china would be worth. Here i have no official responsibility for other people, in China it would be for 10, also they need someone with experience as they don't have any in my field there. PM is ok too.
Thank you for further help. |
|
|
|
|
|
horsemandk
StreetBeater
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
Posts: 2241
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Aug 06, 2006 - 08:03 AM |
|
|
Here is some information:
Working 12 hours a day is nothing here in Shanghai I have friends that work as managers and they "pull" 14-16 hours and that's for foreign companies. Managing people here in China is a very different challenge than back home, Chinese need to be taught how to work efficiently and still they have problems performing!
I rent a 150 m2 apartment which is pretty new and I pay 3.500,- RMB / month
I work as a teacher 20 hours / week and make 20.000,- RMB / month
Going out for dinner with 8 people usually costs less than 400,- for all !!!
I spend around 1.000,- RMB / month on train and taxies and I travel all over Shanghai when teaching
We cook ourself and spend less than 1.500,- RMB / month on food, beverages etc.
Salary tax here in Shanghai starts at 12% and the first 4.800,- you earn is tax free
Salary for a Chinese managing 10 people in a foreign company would be around 15 - 20.000,-
If you need help from the Germans here try and contact the German Centre here in Shanghai, the Embassy should have this information. You can also get help from the Embassy here as well. |
_________________
Those parts of the system that you can hit with a hammer (not advised) are called hardware; those program instructions that you can only curse at are called software. |
|
|
|
|
thomasnils
Squeeker
Joined: Aug 02, 2006
Posts: 11
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Aug 06, 2006 - 04:15 PM |
|
|
Thank you for the information. I have been to SH only once (for 2 1/2 weeks), maybe I have been to the most expensive area for dinner. It was this area with Hofbräuhaus, Starbucks and so on where all the foreigners hang around. Well, also the drinking places I have visited were the most expensive in Asia (equal with Singapore or Tokyo), much more expensive than in BKK/KL/HCM. So I was afraid that I soon would run out of money. I think I should have my lunch in the company restaurant this is cheap and will help me loose weight .
I think I will now wait for the official offer from my company (in September) and then continue discussing. Or maybe it will be so good that I'll better be quiet haha .
Nils |
|
|
|
|
|
horsemandk
StreetBeater
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
Posts: 2241
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Aug 06, 2006 - 05:46 PM |
|
|
If you need more help just send me a personal message |
_________________
Those parts of the system that you can hit with a hammer (not advised) are called hardware; those program instructions that you can only curse at are called software. |
|
|
|
|
ciro
Newbie
Joined: Aug 08, 2006
Posts: 2
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Aug 08, 2006 - 11:18 PM |
|
| Post subject: Re: Expat package for an engineer - usual newbie question |
I'm an Italian exapat (also working in the automotive) since March...
I'm a graduate engineer (5 years studies), and I work as Technical Department Supervisor and Chief Project Manager here in China; I have been in the company for 5 years.
It seems that my company is much more generous since they pay double net salary to expats while we are resident here, plus all the other benefits; I even know of companies that pay much more.
I wouldn't come here for +10% on your base... it's not worth (unless you think to it as a good personal investment); unless you will always eat Chinese, or cook cheap meat at home (not according to the German standards...) and if you want to have a true European lifestyle, OK you will live... but don't expect to come back with much money in the pocket, especially if coming with your family... regardelss what you will be told, you will see that Shanghai is one of the most expensive cities of the worlds after all.
Anyway if you wish to come, and if your're still on time for the discussion, take into consideration the following advice (based also on other people's impressions); you must ask for different things depending if you will bring your family here or not; anyway the company must arrange the resident permits for all your family.
- Worldwide health insurance covering you and all your family members (or anyone coming to live there with you), provided by international market leader companies (e.g. BUPA); health coverage NOT LIMITED to the insurance, full payement for all the family! Evacuation option (e.g. in case of emergency flights to Hong Kong)
- at least 2 times travels to/from Europe (or any destination of your choice at the same ticket price) for you and all your family members just FOR HOLIDAYS (regardless coming with or without family); thickets must have date change allowance paied by the company;
- If you come alone: 1 week in Europe every 6 with paied flights... if not interesting for you then ask for a higer monthly rental.
- If you stay with the family: monthly rental > 2500USD, all inclusive, in an apartment of YOUR CHOICE within the budget; for singles ask for >1500 USD, all inclusive, and more time in Europe as already told
- Ask for a car, all inclusive, or a driver... forget the TAXI... you will get bored quickly
- Pretend that the company will take the resposibility to pay for all the taxes both in Germany and in China; you must get your salary after Chinese AND German taxes and you DON'T want to deal with all the details; according to the agreement between Italy and China I don't have to pay taxes in Italy if already paied here, but I don't know what about Germany... after a certain period you MUST pay taxes in China anyway...
- Discuss your global salary in Euro, and pretend payement regardless the exchange rates, and possibily 50% in a European bank (if you wish)... it will help you to save some money
- Ask for a company credit card (up to 5000 Eur/month) to cover your emergencies: keep in mind that you need a valid credit card to enter ANY hospital (e.g. World Link) or a BUPA insurance (or few others) unless you will go in the public ones, but then... good luck with the language
- Your mobile is a BENEFIT in the full meaning (but use it rationally...)
- A Chinese language training
- If you have children in school age, ask for paied instruction in International Grade Schools or Kindergartens
- Your business trips in Germany must be fully covered (inlcuding food) regardless keeping your home, since your legal residence will be Shanghai (check the German laws...), and there is a big difference between an apartment and home!!!
- Ask for another 2/4 weeks business visit to Shanghai... you will have to look to different things than before
- Ask for a temporary accomodation in a Serviced Apartment or Hotel until YOU find your new home; you expenses must be fully covered until you settle up: you cannot import your own goods in China unless you already have the resident permit
I think that's all... if you want more info just post! |
|
|
|
|
|
horsemandk
StreetBeater
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
Posts: 2241
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Aug 08, 2006 - 11:39 PM |
|
|
As you can see from his mail, this is a standard package he's offered
If he acts up too much they're going to look for a manager here, having no problems in finding another foreigner who will accept a 4.000,- Euro salary and pay everything themselves. I can easily find several Germans already here, who will gladly take this job as is including the package.
Remember that they have a very strong German comunity here in Shanghai, all the company has to do is to contact the German Centre and they'll have a manager within days.
Very few companies pay all the things you mention unless you work as a GM or high level manager. Salaries for foreigners are actually decreasing because they're already too high compared to back home, you live as kings here and you still want more, what will you do once you go back home to normal salaries?
My advice is; be careful about what and how much you ask for, if you're too tough, you might loose the job you already have (I know how many German companies think when it comes to this)
Try and contact the German Centre here and check what the average package contains!! |
_________________
Those parts of the system that you can hit with a hammer (not advised) are called hardware; those program instructions that you can only curse at are called software. |
|
|
|
|
horsemandk
StreetBeater
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
Posts: 2241
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Aug 08, 2006 - 11:41 PM |
|
|
By the way, if you come here and don't act like a king, like many foreigners, you can actually save up a lot of money. So far I've saved up 6 figures in i little over a year and I have a salary, which is lower than the package offered! |
_________________
Those parts of the system that you can hit with a hammer (not advised) are called hardware; those program instructions that you can only curse at are called software. |
|
|
|
|
thomasnils
Squeeker
Joined: Aug 02, 2006
Posts: 11
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Aug 09, 2006 - 01:50 AM |
|
|
Ciro,
thank you for the great posting. You dont mind if I contact you privately?
Horsemaandk,
basically youre right. German culture is about not to talk so much about money, and in a discussion with someone from the personal department the topic No. 1 should be about challenging job, new experience and so on. When asking about benefits more than the standard package you have to be very carefull. Also, my work contract in Germany doesnt permits me to talk about salary with colleagues (maybe outdated now). So its not a good idea to tell the HR guy "i know colleague X gets this and that". But, finding an outsider is not an option because for my job you need a lot of knowledge who does what in the company back home, and a lot of product knowledge. It would take about 3 years training in Germany to get so far so possible concurence may only come from in-house (but I dont know anybody who is interested).
I wont go for 10% more than in Germany. I think within 4 weeks I will get an official offer, let's see...
Thank you all |
|
|
|
|
|
ciro
Newbie
Joined: Aug 08, 2006
Posts: 2
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Aug 09, 2006 - 08:04 AM |
|
|
horsemandk,
the matter is not if he can be replaced in Shanghai (in Europe it is not so easy to get rid of an empolyee, and if he is a specialist he has just to walk to some competitor...), but if he has the convenience to move.
1. You can find a lot of managers here, right, but then why they did not ask some already? They DO want one of their guys, probabily freshly German-minded...
2. He cannot live as a king in Europe, nor he can in China; he cannot change his standards here! if his sope is to move here for a short period, then he has to save money; if he wants to come for a long period so far from home then he must be highly compensated... for sure he will not find his desk empty coming back after 4 years... he may have some difficult period to spend...
3. You don't need to be a GM (who shall be paied far more then that money) for such a package... belive me even if we're not that high, most people have and must have these kind of benefits; suppose that he has children in school age; according to the Chinese law they must go to school, but for some reasons they cannot go to the public schools; check the prices of international schools, he's a German after all and he want his children to grow as Germans.
Health insurance is more a benefit for the company, since his health expenses must be covered by European laws... but World Link will not accept a German Health Card and he will have to pay by himself (with company credit card), then ask for reimbursement...
4. at the end, he must check if he has the cenvenience to stay here; based on my understanding he hasn't. |
|
|
|
|
|
Mosquito
Newbie
Joined: July 10, 2005
Posts: 5
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Aug 09, 2006 - 12:56 PM |
|
|
thomasnils, PM me for any quetions. I am german too with a similar job in Shanghai. |
|
|
|
|
|
chiukee
Squeeker
Joined: Aug 15, 2006
Posts: 14
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Aug 15, 2006 - 08:33 PM |
|
|
Hi,
german companies tend not to pay so much for relocations. I've a chance to go to Shanghai and my company will only increase my net salary so that I'll have the same spending power as in Germany (ca. 6% !). Of course I'll ask for a pay rise as well, but whether I'll get it is something else. House and car are included, but I'll contribute what I've paid in Germany to them.
Does someone know, how easy is it for wives to get jobs once we're over in Shanghai? My wife is has worked for the automobile industry as after sales manager, management consultant, supply chain manager. |
|
|
|
|
|
thomasnils
Squeeker
Joined: Aug 02, 2006
Posts: 11
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Aug 15, 2006 - 11:50 PM |
|
|
An increase of only 6% would not make sense for me to move. Even in our company guidelines there is a standard increase of 10%, + increase acc COLA (which is supposed to be 20% for SH in another very very big German company) + increase for better position + increase for longer working hours. I think 50% net more - which is only 1000 Euros in my case is the minimum (for me). Still waiting for the official offer (everybody is on holiday in Germany at the moment). Hope until mid-Sept. everything will be clear. Also in my company everything is based on the net salary (which is quite low in my case because of high taxation of singles here).
Concerning jobs for wifes, i don't know the rules, but the gf of another colleague there was able to find a job as an architect (but I am not sure if that was an internship), another colleagues gf was not able to find a job as a nurse. I think that will be a major problem if you are working 60 h a week and your wife is bored to death in your appartment. That was the main reason why about 80% of our expats in Asia did not fulfill their contract - wife/gf put them under pressure to go home early. Thank god I am single . Companys (including mine) are sourcing more and more from China so I think that there might be a chance for a supply chain manager. But I have no idea about work permits and so on. Good luck |
|
|
|
|
|
answerer
Raver
Joined: Apr 26, 2006
Posts: 453
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Aug 17, 2006 - 11:07 PM |
|
|
The tax equalization is a big issue. I've heard that tax rates in China are quite high but don't have the details. Expat packages usually have the company paying for your taxes and the tax filing. This makes your net pay much higher and the 10% increase essentially irrelevant.
You'll also want to make sure they pay for your healthcare plan and visas. Temporary housing in a hotel or service apt while you find permanent housing.
Taxi costs should negligible. My commute is around 20-30min and costs about 30rmb. This comes out to less than $8 USD daily and $160 USD monthly. |
|
|
|
|
|
chiukee
Squeeker
Joined: Aug 15, 2006
Posts: 14
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Aug 17, 2006 - 11:14 PM |
|
|
If you're paying 160 $ per month for taxis, then wouldn't a car and driver be cheaper? I heard that they cost about 100 $ per month |
|
|
|
|
|
thomasnils
Squeeker
Joined: Aug 02, 2006
Posts: 11
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Aug 19, 2006 - 05:34 PM |
|
|
Hi Answerer,
as Chiukee said already, German companies pay you on a net basis - they dont want you to make more money only because you are in China! . It looks like we Germans/our companies have a problem with well paied expats (I dont have ). The calculation of my company is based on my net income in Germany. They will calculate my income in China as follows: 100% German net income (after all taxes) + 10% Expat premium + maybe 20% China premuim (COLA) + maybe 10% for longer working hours + maybe 10% for more challenging job = 150%. That is supposed to be my net income in China.
If my rent in Germany was 500 Euro and will be 1000 Euro in China, they will pay me (1000-500) = 500 net more for the appartment. The company does not pay my taxes, my gros income will be (maybe 150% of German net income) + housing allowance 500 Euro + Chinese income tax.
Income tax is max 42% for singles in Germany, in China I heared max. 45% so no real difference to Germany. But I don't think I will get that much that I have to pay 45% in China.
Still waiting for an official offer (anyway I am on holidays).
What I would like is to get some data here like:
"I am the engineering manager of a design department, I am supervising 10 locals, my net income is XXXX Euro/month, company pays appartment/car/driver/whatever"
That would give me some data for discussion with the HR department. I dont want to land in SH and finding out that everybody with about the same job makes 100% more than me. You could use a "temporary name" for this info so nobody would know who makes how much here |
|
|
|
|
|
Macpod
Veejay
Joined: Apr 15, 2006
Posts: 2195
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Aug 19, 2006 - 09:48 PM |
|
| Post subject: Re: Expat package for an engineer - usual newbie question |
| ciro wrote: |
I'm an Italian exapat (also working in the automotive) since March...
I'm a graduate engineer (5 years studies), and I work as Technical Department Supervisor and Chief Project Manager here in China; I have been in the company for 5 years.
It seems that my company is much more generous since they pay double net salary to expats while we are resident here, plus all the other benefits; I even know of companies that pay much more.
I wouldn't come here for +10% on your base... it's not worth (unless you think to it as a good personal investment); unless you will always eat Chinese, or cook cheap meat at home (not according to the German standards...) and if you want to have a true European lifestyle, OK you will live... but don't expect to come back with much money in the pocket, especially if coming with your family... regardelss what you will be told, you will see that Shanghai is one of the most expensive cities of the worlds after all.
Anyway if you wish to come, and if your're still on time for the discussion, take into consideration the following advice (based also on other people's impressions); you must ask for different things depending if you will bring your family here or not; anyway the company must arrange the resident permits for all your family.
- Worldwide health insurance covering you and all your family members (or anyone coming to live there with you), provided by international market leader companies (e.g. BUPA); health coverage NOT LIMITED to the insurance, full payement for all the family! Evacuation option (e.g. in case of emergency flights to Hong Kong)
- at least 2 times travels to/from Europe (or any destination of your choice at the same ticket price) for you and all your family members just FOR HOLIDAYS (regardless coming with or without family); thickets must have date change allowance paied by the company;
- If you come alone: 1 week in Europe every 6 with paied flights... if not interesting for you then ask for a higer monthly rental.
- If you stay with the family: monthly rental > 2500USD, all inclusive, in an apartment of YOUR CHOICE within the budget; for singles ask for >1500 USD, all inclusive, and more time in Europe as already told
- Ask for a car, all inclusive, or a driver... forget the TAXI... you will get bored quickly
- Pretend that the company will take the resposibility to pay for all the taxes both in Germany and in China; you must get your salary after Chinese AND German taxes and you DON'T want to deal with all the details; according to the agreement between Italy and China I don't have to pay taxes in Italy if already paied here, but I don't know what about Germany... after a certain period you MUST pay taxes in China anyway...
- Discuss your global salary in Euro, and pretend payement regardless the exchange rates, and possibily 50% in a European bank (if you wish)... it will help you to save some money
- Ask for a company credit card (up to 5000 Eur/month) to cover your emergencies: keep in mind that you need a valid credit card to enter ANY hospital (e.g. World Link) or a BUPA insurance (or few others) unless you will go in the public ones, but then... good luck with the language
- Your mobile is a BENEFIT in the full meaning (but use it rationally...)
- A Chinese language training
- If you have children in school age, ask for paied instruction in International Grade Schools or Kindergartens
- Your business trips in Germany must be fully covered (inlcuding food) regardless keeping your home, since your legal residence will be Shanghai (check the German laws...), and there is a big difference between an apartment and home!!!
- Ask for another 2/4 weeks business visit to Shanghai... you will have to look to different things than before
- Ask for a temporary accomodation in a Serviced Apartment or Hotel until YOU find your new home; you expenses must be fully covered until you settle up: you cannot import your own goods in China unless you already have the resident permit
I think that's all... if you want more info just post! |
Double!!!?? are you bloody serious!.what industry do you work in. IT would be amazing if an architect get this package. |
|
|
|
|
|
chiukee
Squeeker
Joined: Aug 15, 2006
Posts: 14
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Aug 20, 2006 - 03:24 AM |
|
|
Thomas,
as you said, german companies do not expect you to make a fortune whilst abroad. As previuosly mentioned, the ONLY increase I get would be the higher cost of living in SH. I would be happy with 50% increase. If you're not satisfied they you can ask for more, but there's the danger that you'll price yourself out of the market. And remember what your company says "the move abroad will not harm your career" . Our HR Director is quoted as saying, "Anyone can reject a move abroard, but then they have to face Edeka: - Ende der Karriere" |
|
|
|
|
|
thomasnils
Squeeker
Joined: Aug 02, 2006
Posts: 11
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Aug 20, 2006 - 02:50 PM |
|
|
Chiukee,
Well it was me who asked for a job outside Germany. Getting quite bored here at the moment . I do not expect any promotion after my return as there are not so many better jobs available. 10 years ago most people who returned became team leader or department leader upon their return. This is not the case any more ... as there are more people going abroad. Anyway, I think some China experience wont be bad.
By the way will you go to SH now? |
|
|
|
|
|
chiukee
Squeeker
Joined: Aug 15, 2006
Posts: 14
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Aug 21, 2006 - 04:02 AM |
|
|
Thomas,
I've got to give in my demands and then see whether they'll be accepted. Main stumbling block for us is a job for my wife, because she'll have to give up her job. The risk of us coming back after 4 yrs and she not finding anything in germany again is quite high, so the question is, is it worth it for us? That's why I've ask questions with regards to work permits and part time jobs in SH in these Forem.
If I were you, I'll definitely go to SH, but maybe I'll try to squeeze a little bit more out of your employers . |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
Forum FAQ
Search
Preferences
Watched Topics
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
