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wolfy
Fire-eater
Joined: Sep 13, 2004
Posts: 2510
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Oct 21, 2006 - 01:18 AM |
 
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Actually, Confucianism isn't all that bad.
Meritocracy,
Education,
Benevolence and goodness,
Family loyalty,
Work ethic,
Value of traditions,
Conformity to traditional standards,
Honouring of ancestors,
Unquestioning obedience to superiors. |
_________________
Good old English spirit! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MG27BKwjaI |
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teanosugar
Raver
Joined: Oct 27, 2005
Posts: 495
Location: europe
Status: Offline
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Oct 21, 2006 - 08:11 AM |
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I think that perhaps the risk with commenting on what Ask_Weasal describes in his article is that our opinions might only reflect our own feelings about Chinese society. Those white people who argued that Chinese people simply are not familiar with black people might have been trying to show their positive attitude towards China, albeit at the expense of seeming like they were explaining away the issue.
I'm not Chinese- I don't think I am capable of analyzing these examples of racism in China properly, but I think it is important to question why Ask_Weasal doesn't seem to have had much support from the one group from which you would expect it to have been the greatest. |
Last edited by teanosugar on Oct 21, 2006 - 08:30 AM; edited 1 time in total |
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CoffeeHawk_0
Board Buddha
Joined: July 14, 2005
Posts: 14444
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Oct 21, 2006 - 08:17 AM |
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If you are close/open with locals, you can ask their opinion about other races and they will tell you. My local friends, and even Shanghai, is not a statistically accurate sampling of China, but it does provide a perspective that is different from your own (the west's). |
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frenchlover1999
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 8730
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Oct 21, 2006 - 11:51 AM |
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Anyway this was never about black people. Weasel himself noted that this was about white ("native English speaking people" in the common Chinese perception) and non-white (99+% of them being Chinese/Asian teachers including all the acronyms + a handful of black people). |
_________________
That was no shark. That was my personal submarine. But enough of this polite conversation. What is the purpose of your visit? |
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bougie
Board Buddha
Joined: Nov 20, 2004
Posts: 13323
Location: Wuhan Hubei China
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Oct 21, 2006 - 12:02 PM |
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I find the "shooting nuns in t¡bet" much more fun and interesting |
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TwirlingTurd
Talker
Joined: Sep 20, 2006
Posts: 114
Status: Offline
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Oct 21, 2006 - 01:52 PM |
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"Meritocracy,
Education,
Benevolence and goodness,
Family loyalty,
Work ethic,
Value of traditions,
Conformity to traditional standards,
Honouring of ancestors,
Unquestioning obedience to superiors."
True, those are Confucian values, however in order to assess their true impact in society you have to look at them as a whole.
There are a number of the values that you mention that are directly antagonistic.
The "loyalty to the family" is a great way to justify nepotism, a classic disease in Eastern states. And from that derives corruption. In a classic Confucionism fable, a statesman refused to turn his father (a notorious lamb thief) to the authorities exactly because of the "loyalty to his family". Family comes first in Confucionism, meaning everyone and everything outside the family is disposable and potential loot.
Let's remember one thing here: Western societies are raised with the fear of the Almighty always looking over our shoulders. We know that in the end there is someone that knows everything we are doing, good and bad, and that there is no escape from final judgement. Our passport to eternity (men's only common goal) comes through our deeds. Confucionism and the lack of religion in China makes the FAMILY and your offspring to carry you to eternity. The passage to eternity comes ONLY in the ritual of death : you have a nice funeral and you burn a lot of paper money and you are safe, regardless of your deeds throughout life. That is the most misunderstood and crucial difference between Chinese and Western societies that a lot of people dont understand. This difference leads to a disregard to the consequences of any actions conducted in life on Earth.
Also, the 5 relationships are cancer to Women. Can you imagine how many intelligent women in this country would be in leading positions if not for this flawed perception of the responsibilities and relative position of women? This is basically legal discrimination, thanks to Confucius.
The Communists, truth the said, had a correct approach towards erasing this subservience from the Confucianism system, in place for so long. They are hardly praised for that, mostly because it's cool to bash them and hard to instruct oneself about their acts, but I dont want to be detracted from the original topic so let's get back to Confucianism.
"Value of traditions,
Conformity to traditional standards,
Honouring of ancestors,
Unquestioning obedience to superiors."
Those are pure POISON for a changing society like China of today, that needs so badly to ask itself questions.
That unquestioning obedience to superiors: shall incompetent superiors NOT be questioned?
Wouldnt that be self-destructive? There are numerous examples of how unquestioning your superiors leads to misgovernance and abuse.
That's one of the requirements for democracy as well.
Confucianism has its pillars in the few "good men" governing the country, but assuming they are plenty and that they will be the ones that will rise to power is a crucial mistake and an assumption that plagued this country for generations.
It's a widespread cancer.
The Legalists unfortunately never got the upper hand in this country, except for a few decades. Had they prevailed it we wouldnt be in this situation.
But I will let more instructed ones talk about this.
TT. |
_________________
"I’ll bet, from the comfort of your armchair in your cocooned expat bubble in Shanghai, your heart bleeds for them." |
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wolfy
Fire-eater
Joined: Sep 13, 2004
Posts: 2510
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Oct 21, 2006 - 02:39 PM |
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As with all socio-economic systems, there are good sides and bad.
You can always go the other way and have rampant individualism, complete anarchy and all the social problems that go with it like crime, gun crime, robbery, drugs. vandalism, graffiti, etc. A social system needs order and that’s the key thing about Confucianism. Chinese kids are studious; they respect the teacher and generally want to learn. Teaching in the West is more akin to riot control and it’s for that very reason that China will become the dominant economy in the coming century.
Unquestioning obedience to superiors works in any hierarchical organization. The Nazis had something called the Fuherprinzip which meant leaving total decision making freedom in the hands of the superior officers. It was pretty successful (they almost beat Britain, twice!) and the Wermacht was always considered to have the most competent and capable soldiers right down to the level of the private. Soldiers who could think independently and intelligently yet put total faith in their commanding officers. Imagine if everyone in the armed services could go around questioning their superiors, history would be littered with mutinies and lost campaigns.
I do agree with most of what you said though and at least with communist and capitalist systems people are not condemned to a lifetime of cleaning toilets. |
_________________
Good old English spirit! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MG27BKwjaI |
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frenchlover1999
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 8730
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Oct 21, 2006 - 02:54 PM |
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Excellent post by TT who cared to explain what I could not get bothered to. |
_________________
That was no shark. That was my personal submarine. But enough of this polite conversation. What is the purpose of your visit? |
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wolfy
Fire-eater
Joined: Sep 13, 2004
Posts: 2510
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Oct 21, 2006 - 02:58 PM |
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markkcrosby
Talker
Joined: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 94
Status: Offline
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Oct 23, 2006 - 09:41 PM |
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Hats off to ask_weasel.
I'm white, but still don't appreciate the discrimination, even when it's stacked in favor for white people - although we make more money, we become less deserving of it. |
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CoffeeHawk_0
Board Buddha
Joined: July 14, 2005
Posts: 14444
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Oct 24, 2006 - 06:45 PM |
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you are clearly prejudice against people without hats though |
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Adimnistrator
Rocker
Joined: July 20, 2007
Posts: 683
Status: Offline
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Sep 04, 2008 - 12:25 AM |
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Bump this "chamaflauge" tractate  |
_________________
Barack Obama: young, handsome and suntanned.
(Silvio Berlusconi) |
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hc
Post Roaster
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 4545
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Sep 04, 2008 - 07:34 AM |
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| CoffeeHawk_0 wrote: |
Well said HC. One thing that everyone should agree on that has studied this culture, anything regarding race, prejudice, anger, and resolution of the aforementioned topics, is different here than in the west. Hip-hop vs. Hillbillies, the KKK vs. the Black Panthers, that is USA style: cowboy style, fight fire with fire. That does not work here. Here, you need to be wise and subtle. Displays of anger are merely a sign of an unbalanced mind; a sign that someone is not thinking logically and therefore their goals and ideas won't be respected. Zhende.
The 'logic' HC speaks of is a big driving force. My theory the logical prejudice of the east is probably easier to overcome, or at least understand, than the emotional based prejudice of the west. Once it's understood, the solution then should be understood too. That's not to say it can be implemented quickly, but it might be 'easier' than what has happened in the west. |
Look at this. Coffeehawk saying "well said HC" and being all friendly...
That was before he felt his masculinity was threatened by the Henry_Chinaski Show.
What happened to you coffee?
Impotence is curable you know. Don't feel so humiliated buddy. |
_________________
Click here to read the latest retarded PM Natalie sent me. Let's make her lose face and FINALLY leave this site. |
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Nathalie25
Board Legend
Joined: Aug 24, 2004
Posts: 10387
Location: Shanghai
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Sep 04, 2008 - 06:39 PM |
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Look at this. Coffeehawk saying "well said HC" and being all friendly...
That was before he felt his masculinity was threatened by the Henry_Chinaski Show.
What happened to you coffee?
Impotence is curable you know. Don't feel so humiliated buddy. |
[/quote]
Coffeehawk you needn't talk to HC, cause HC just wanna sex with you for his fcuk hungry Dick and his fcuk dick is not as normal as my pet, haha~~~~~~~ |
_________________
功高盖主，必有祸出。人生是人类生命中内心和万般经历的真实写照。 http:/ |
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Nathalie25
Board Legend
Joined: Aug 24, 2004
Posts: 10387
Location: Shanghai
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Sep 04, 2008 - 06:42 PM |
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I mean HC his eyes now are red not black or brown~~~~~~~
And I know HC is going to shoot me in his next second, but I am so ugly and fat and short,hahaha~~~~~~~~ |
_________________
功高盖主，必有祸出。人生是人类生命中内心和万般经历的真实写照。 http:/ |
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hc
Post Roaster
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 4545
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Sep 04, 2008 - 07:02 PM |
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That_Chinese_Girl
Veejay
Joined: Oct 08, 2007
Posts: 2030
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Sep 04, 2008 - 07:14 PM |
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Nat, for your midnight snacks, do you prefer coffee and cookies or hot spicy chicken wings? |
_________________
Objectivity is the male subjectivity. |
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CoffeeHawk_0
Board Buddha
Joined: July 14, 2005
Posts: 14444
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Sep 04, 2008 - 08:15 PM |
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| hc wrote: |
| CoffeeHawk_0 wrote: |
Well said HC. One thing that everyone should agree on that has studied this culture, anything regarding race, prejudice, anger, and resolution of the aforementioned topics, is different here than in the west. Hip-hop vs. Hillbillies, the KKK vs. the Black Panthers, that is USA style: cowboy style, fight fire with fire. That does not work here. Here, you need to be wise and subtle. Displays of anger are merely a sign of an unbalanced mind; a sign that someone is not thinking logically and therefore their goals and ideas won't be respected. Zhende.
The 'logic' HC speaks of is a big driving force. My theory the logical prejudice of the east is probably easier to overcome, or at least understand, than the emotional based prejudice of the west. Once it's understood, the solution then should be understood too. That's not to say it can be implemented quickly, but it might be 'easier' than what has happened in the west. |
Sep 15, 2006 - 03:39 PM
Look at this. Coffeehawk saying "well said HC" and being all friendly...
That was before he felt his masculinity was threatened by the Henry_Chinaski Show.
What happened to you coffee?
Impotence is curable you know. Don't feel so humiliated buddy. |
In 2006 maybe you were getting laid on a regular basis, not so much now? Notice the changes in your posting style?
My potential impotence is curable because I still have my balls. Sorry to hear about your condition. |
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Cambronne
Veejay
Joined: Feb 23, 2008
Posts: 2012
Status: Offline
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Sep 04, 2008 - 09:27 PM |
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We all noticed the change. Nat did too. and she liked it. |
_________________
Countless people will hate the new world order and will die protesting against it. |
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Cambronne
Veejay
Joined: Feb 23, 2008
Posts: 2012
Status: Offline
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Sep 04, 2008 - 09:36 PM |
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| frenchlover1999 wrote: |
| Yes, a total breakdown of socialist values in this country. Orchestrated by various interest groups with support from the United States, through various agencies (mostly unofficial ones such as evangelical groups). The Chinese governement has had a very hard time even identifying this threat - they are now working on it (the normalization of relations with the Vatican, a useful counterpower to the sects, is an example). Maybe your article can help, but not if published in the Western media (on the contrary it would end up helping those people who want to destroy all remains of communism in this country, by providing them with yet another example of how bad the Chinese government really is). F*l*n*g*ng members' skins lampshades, anyone? |
What a poster he was, this Frenchlover. Bravo! |
_________________
Countless people will hate the new world order and will die protesting against it. |
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bougie
Board Buddha
Joined: Nov 20, 2004
Posts: 13323
Location: Wuhan Hubei China
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Sep 04, 2008 - 09:42 PM |
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