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underh20
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
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Location: EOA Seminar
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 Posted:
Feb 04, 2007 - 06:58 PM |
 
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^
1. How many people are confirmed killed in Nazi prison camps and what percentage of these were Jews?
2. Of those killed in Nazi concentration camps, how many of those were killed in a gas chamber and what percentage of those were Jews?
3. Define the term holocaust. |
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Borodino
Reacher
Joined: Jan 03, 2007
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| Posted:
Feb 04, 2007 - 08:10 PM |
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1.
6 of the 11 million civilians killed between 1939 to 1945 (not counting those killed in military actions) were Jews.
2.
Jews killed in gas chambers
a. at Belzec (gas chambers), 600,000;
b. at Sobibor (gas chambers), 250,000;
c. at Treblinka (gas chambers), 870,000; and
d. at Chelmno (gas vans, CO), 152,000;
None of the above had work camps associated with them. They were purely extermination centres. Save, Chelmno, they all used Zyklon B.
e. at Madjanek (gas chambers, Zyklon B and CO), 20,000; malnutrition and disease, 160,000; machine-gunned in one day, 18,000;
f. Auschwitz 910,000 (gas chambers. 400,000 were killed in gas chambers in July and August of 1944 alone).
Rudolph Hoss, the camp commandant: “It took from 3 to 15 minutes to kill the people in the death chamber depending upon climatic conditions. We knew when the people were dead because their screaming stopped. We usually waited about one-half hour before we opened the doors and removed the bodies.” Here are your health and safety considerations!
g. Small gas chambers using CO or Zyklon B (or both), functioned at six of the “ordinary” concentration camps in Germany: Sachsenhausen, Neuengamme, Mauthausen, Stutthof, Gross-Rosen, and Ravensbrück.
These figures do not include gypsys, homosexuals, communists, Jehovah's witnesses, etc.
Thus, counting the minor camps, and assuming (generously) that only 2/3rds of Auschwitz's Jews were killed in the chambers, the figure comes to about 2.5 million Jews dying as a direct result of gas, or about 45% of the total six million, the majority of the remainder of which died from overwork, malnutrition, exposure and disease. These figures do not include gypsys, communists, Jehovahs witnesses or Slavs who were also gassed.
Between 1939 and 1945 then, one in four of all living European Jews died in a gas chamber. Over half of all European Jews perished.
I'm not surprised that those who remain insist that we remember it.
3.
The term 'Holocaust' is derived from the Greek translation of the Hebrew term olah . It means, "a burnt sacrifice offered to the Lord".
These figures are taken from peer-reviwed academic publications, particularly The Columbia Guide to the Holocaust (2000); The Holocaust: An Annotated Bibliography (1985) and Encyclopaedia of the Holocaust (1990) |
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frenchlover1999
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 8730
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Feb 04, 2007 - 10:31 PM |
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The idiotic post above confirms that the Germans 50 years ago had access to technology that the US could never master. The Auschwitz numbers are interesting, 200,000 gassed a month at top speed... thats about 6,000 a day. And the Germans managed to destry the entore facility, leaving no trace of it (at the museum, you can only see a mockup built after the war).
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6 of the 11 million civilians killed between 1939 to 1945 (not counting those killed in military actions) were Jews.
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These numbers are nothing short of shocking. First of all, more than 11 million civilians died. Even if you just count China, you already reach this amount. As for the 6 million Jews... Even zionist historians (I mean historians, not propagandists) dont believe in this magic number anymore. |
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Borodino
Reacher
Joined: Jan 03, 2007
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Feb 04, 2007 - 10:47 PM |
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I think you're shocked for all the wrong reasons.
Auschwitz was capable of processing 2000 Jews at a single session.
The total number of dead civilians in Europe alone is far higher than 11 million. This is a very conservative figure. Some authorities put it at 17 million, but it depends on how you define "military action". Is machine-gunning Slav villages behind the lines a military action?
I'm citing peer-reviewed academic research. Frenchy is citing the voices in his head.
You choose. |
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frenchlover1999
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 8730
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Feb 04, 2007 - 11:20 PM |
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Excellent point you are making - and I thank you for it. You are touching the core issue here - why have "peers" chosen to single out the Jews and to forget the Chinese (twice as many died during WW2). In the glorious days of the Soviet Union, WW2 was called the Great Patriotic War - it is still called that way in Russia. Because over 20 millions of their citizens died fighting the Germans.
As for the 6 million magic figure, you will find many historians who disagree with that. There was less than 6 millions Jews in Germany' sphere of influence at that time... so even with the ruthless German killing infrastructure... In fact todays serious historians seem to talk about 500,000-1 millions Jews killed in German camps. Which is of course way to much. But still much less than the number of Chinese, Russian, etc who died. If you must insist in a religious or ethnic breakdown - we could count the Russians as Orthodox Christians and the Chinese as Buddhists? |
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frenchlover1999
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 8730
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Feb 04, 2007 - 11:36 PM |
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Auschwitz was capable of processing 2000 Jews at a single session.
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Oh. I have seen the mockup at Auschwitz. I doubt you can put more than 100 people inside. But its just a mockup. The giant original construct was destroyed in a few days by superior Germans. Knowing that the CIA later recruited former Nazi scientists... that could explain the magical disintegration of the Boeing that stuck the Pentagon on 9/11... |
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That was no shark. That was my personal submarine. But enough of this polite conversation. What is the purpose of your visit? |
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Borodino
Reacher
Joined: Jan 03, 2007
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Feb 05, 2007 - 12:14 AM |
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1. I have cited serious academic research. You have not. Again, I'm left wondering what your actual evidence is. As far as I can see, it boils down to a. a contention that Hydrogen Cynaide would kill all the guards (which it wouldn't) and b. a discredited speculative engineering report performed by a man who didn't bother to check his sources.
2. There is a great deal of attention paid to other atrocities, and we can talk about them too, when you're feeling better. I do not deny that these are atrocities too. Who do you imagine does? If 100 million people were murdered tomorrow, would that make the Holocaust any less deserving of respect? If you're merely saying that other atrocities deserve more respect, well, that's a separate issue, but this 'the gas-chambers-are-impossible' nonsense has little relevance to it that I can see.
3. Your figures concerning the number of Jews in Germany's sphere of influence do not agree with any peer-reviewed research I can find. The Wannasee conference itself talks of 11m Jews. Would you like to point some dissenting peer-reviwed research out to me?
4. You don't seem to know what 'peer-reviewed' means. It means that the evidence has been checked by other scholars of established expertise. You may imagine this to be a loose and disorganised affair; when I got my PhD they flew in one chap from Canada and one from America to viva me on the thesis. It is extremely rigorous and very critical and it can take a very long time. This prevents people making stupid claims for which no evidence exists. It does not mean that the scholar is necessarily right, of course, but it is a valuable bulwark against the kind of nonsense one finds on, say, the Internet. This is why peer-reviewed publications are generally taken more seriously; they have been fact-checked.
5. You seem to have had some kind of mental breakdown near the end of the last post. 9/11? Get well soon. |
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underh20
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 9641
Location: EOA Seminar
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2007 - 08:54 AM |
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| Borodino wrote: |
| Your figures concerning the number of Jews in Germany's sphere of influence do not agree with any peer-reviewed research I can find. The Wannasee conference itself talks of 11m Jews. Would you like to point some dissenting peer-reviwed research out to me? |
11 million Jews? Would you care to revise that, perhaps, in the interest of accuracy?
Although any difference is insignificant considering the overall total, almost every expert stipulates that the figure of 6 million Jews is an estimate and it may very well be approximately 10% less. Some accomplished historians even quote 5.1 million.
Of course, this is going on census estimates because according to Nazi records, the numbers were significantly lower. As much as the Nazis were meticulous record keepers, nobody would argue that they somehow failed, especially during the latter periods, to record every victim. |
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Borodino
Reacher
Joined: Jan 03, 2007
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2007 - 10:53 AM |
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^ No: the 11 million figure refers to the number of Jews living in Europe, not the number who were killed. Are we talking about the same thing? |
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underh20
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 9641
Location: EOA Seminar
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Feb 05, 2007 - 11:11 AM |
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^ You're right. On second glance I see you are citing 11 million as not the number of Jews killed, but the number of Jews living at the time in Germany's sphere of influence. |
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frenchlover1999
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 8730
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Feb 05, 2007 - 11:43 AM |
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I am sorry but there was never 11 millions Jews living in Europe. Even if you include the USSR, the figure is closer th 6 millions... |
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That was no shark. That was my personal submarine. But enough of this polite conversation. What is the purpose of your visit? |
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underh20
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 9641
Location: EOA Seminar
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Feb 05, 2007 - 11:54 AM |
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^ References? |
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frenchlover1999
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 8730
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2007 - 11:55 AM |
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You may also want to look at this (not a revisionist source) http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/jewpop.html for the current Jewish population. If you add up everything, you get around 13 millions. In 2005. Including less than 6 millions in Israel.
I also attach the plaque(s) in Auschwiz. |
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That was no shark. That was my personal submarine. But enough of this polite conversation. What is the purpose of your visit? |
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underh20
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 9641
Location: EOA Seminar
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2007 - 12:03 PM |
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^
How do the figures of the Jewish population in 2005 correlate to those of 1940 - 1945?
The plaques refer to victims only at Auschwitz, no? What about the other camps? |
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بارك الله ، بارك الله |
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frenchlover1999
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 8730
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2007 - 12:14 PM |
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Come on. We would expect the Jewish population in 2005 to be higher than in 1940, even taking the "6 millions" into account. You can google for other sources. Yes the plaque is only for Auschwitz. Its called Holocaust Mathematics, invented by a Jewish genius. The total of 6 millions is left unchanged, although the subtotal at Auschwitz was reduced by more than 2.5 millions. Normally you would expect the grand total to be reduced, right? |
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That was no shark. That was my personal submarine. But enough of this polite conversation. What is the purpose of your visit? |
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frenchlover1999
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 8730
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2007 - 12:17 PM |
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As for peer review, its forbidden by law to question the myth of Auschwitz, so what do you expect from peer-reviewed research on the topic? Its like the Oscar at Hollywood. |
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That was no shark. That was my personal submarine. But enough of this polite conversation. What is the purpose of your visit? |
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underh20
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 9641
Location: EOA Seminar
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2007 - 12:27 PM |
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FL, it is I who am confused for a change.
Many sources, Jewish and secular, state that the world Jewish population in 1940 was under 16 million. How does that correlate with your statistics? Now, if there were 16 million and, say, 6 million were killed, what is the natural rate of population increase if we assume that there were only 11 million Jews left?
You are saying that they have always claimed 6 million were murdered even after lowering the numbers by 2.5 million in Auschwitz, correct? Is it possible they lowered the numbers at Auschwitz but raised them at other camps?
In any event, what I don't appreciate in the 1.5 million plaque is the emphasis on those killed as "mainly Jews." It smells like a political agenda. |
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Borodino
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Joined: Jan 03, 2007
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2007 - 09:15 PM |
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As far as I know, it's not against the law in the US or the UK to question the Holocaust. We have stuck to the eminent Anglo-Saxon tradition of allowing people to make fools of themselves in any way they see fit, trusting, I suppose, that no-one's going to take this kind of rubbish seriously and that - even if they do - it would be a waste of time to try to legislate them into common sense. The startling lack of Holocaust deniers on university History faculties is due to the same reason that there are a startling lack of Battle-of-Hastings deniers; all the evidence suggests that it happened.
I hate to say this Under, but it looks like those who died at Auschwitz really were "mainly Jews". I quote from the Columbia History of the Holocaust, page 21.
"In March 1941 Heinrich Himmler visited Auschwitz and ordered its expansion into the largest of the German concentration camps. He was probably influenced by its site at the intersection of two main railroad lines about thirty miles southwest of Kraków and close to the large Jewish population of Eastern Upper Silesia. In the course of expanding Auschwitz during the next three years, the Germans also turned it into the largest extermination camp, responsible for at least 1,100,000 dead, more than 90 percent of them Jews."
Again, not in itself conclusive. But this is a peer-reviewed publication with an extensive bibliography from a very fine university, and in the absence of any compelling reason to doubt this claim, I'm going to stick by it. |
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frenchlover1999
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 8730
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2007 - 09:46 PM |
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Bolino, could you explain to us how this Holocaust mathematics work? Total 6 millions including 4 millions who died in Auschwitz. That second number later reduced to 1,100,000 according to your peer-reviewed publication. But the total still remains at 6 millions. Knowing that the number of victims in the other camps was also reduced...
Underho, I dont know about the number of world Jews before 1940. Your numbers may be correct. |
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That was no shark. That was my personal submarine. But enough of this polite conversation. What is the purpose of your visit? |
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frenchlover1999
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 8730
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2007 - 10:02 PM |
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| Quote: |
As far as I know, it's not against the law in the US or the UK to question the Holocaust. We have stuck to the eminent Anglo-Saxon tradition of allowing people to make fools of themselves in any way they see fit, trusting, I suppose, that no-one's going to take this kind of rubbish seriously and that - even if they do - it would be a waste of time to try to legislate them into common sense.
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True holocaust denial is not a crime in the UK. But David Irving had a tough time all the same, was convicted of racism. And is now serving time in an Austrian jail for a speech he made 16 years ago. |
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That was no shark. That was my personal submarine. But enough of this polite conversation. What is the purpose of your visit? |
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PennyCrayon
Lurker
Joined: Feb 02, 2007
Posts: 23
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Feb 06, 2007 - 01:59 AM |
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True, it happened absolutley. But that is not a carte blanche for present crimes.
What is justice? A women holding even scales.
Justice. equal. was saddam treated as an equal?
what justice do we see?
The hangman's verdict.
If there is no justice, surely it is better to die fighting? |
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Borodino
Reacher
Joined: Jan 03, 2007
Posts: 316
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| Posted:
Feb 06, 2007 - 02:11 AM |
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1. The figure is six million because that's the number of fathers, mothers, wives, husbands, sons and daughters who disappeared forever, you lunatic Jew-hating c0ck! I can imagine some consfusion about where they all went!
Is that it? Is that all you have? An inaccurate plaque?
2. I can't speak for the Austrians, but as far as Irving's English trial was concerned, it was entirely his own fault. If the man hadn't lodged a libel complaint against those who accused him of being an intellectually irresponsible liar, there would have been no libel case for him to lose. The man was a joke; his "evidence" was a joke; his theories were a joke. He was a professional charlatan masquerading as a historian, and he was foolish in the extreme to call his detractors when they described him as such.
3. What you have said in this thread, Frenchy, is heinous. It's despicable. I have seen you say all sorts of nonsensical things, but this! This is too much. To deny the Holocaust! You are crossing the line here, and you are entering a territory inhabited by lunatics, fascists and bigots.
Please, I beg you, ask yourself: is the evidence I have for my denial any good? Or have I simply trawled google for neofascist revisions of one of the worst atrocities in the history of the human race? Have you seriouslyu studied it? Have you read aby serious, peeer-reviewed books on the subject? Have you spoken to any who survived? Face-to-frickin-face? Have you? Have you? Have you?
You know your answer and it is right that you should feel ashamed. It is natural that you should squirm and justify. But you are dishonoring the dead. There is no crime more cowardly or abject.
Reconsider. You are a fool. Reconsider. |
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PennyCrayon
Lurker
Joined: Feb 02, 2007
Posts: 23
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Feb 06, 2007 - 02:29 AM |
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alcohol n any drug i can get hold of worx 4 me....... |
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PennyCrayon
Lurker
Joined: Feb 02, 2007
Posts: 23
Status: Offline
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Feb 06, 2007 - 02:30 AM |
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maye we can go snort some of them jew ashes at birkenau? |
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underh20
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 9641
Location: EOA Seminar
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| Posted:
Feb 06, 2007 - 08:35 AM |
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^ Who is this retarded, stinky kunt? |
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