| Author |
Message |
theAutumn45
Rocker
Joined: Oct 28, 2005
Posts: 796
|
  Posted:
Feb 16, 2007 - 03:36 AM |
 
|
| Post subject: What happened to the debt relief for Africa |
Zambia loses 'vulture fund' case
A High Court judge has ruled that Zambia must pay a substantial sum to a so-called "vulture fund".
British Virgin Islands-based Donegal International paid less than $4m (£2m) for a debt the African nation owed, but sued Zambia for a $42m repayment.
It said its bill was the result of interest and costs, but the judge has indicated that Zambia should pay less.
The ruling has angered anti-debt campaigners, who say it will undermine Zambia's plans for poverty reduction.
The judge ruled against Zambia's application to dismiss Donegal's claim, but at the same time proposed to end a freeze of Zambian assets secured by the fund.
Donegal, however, will have a chance to argue the case for a continued freeze of Zambian assets.
According to BBC economics reporter Andrew Walker, people familiar with the case believe that the judge will order Zambia to pay Donegal between $10m and $20m, less than half what Donegal sought.
Lawyers for Zambia, however, said the judgement was a victory for Zambia.
Janet Legrand of DLA Piper called the ruling "fantastic news for both the government of Zambia and its people".
The fight against Donegal's claim had been "entirely vindicated and [marked] a significant milestone in the efforts of [the Zambian government] to fight corruption and maintain a stable economic course".
Concerns
Vulture funds - as defined by the International Monetary Fund and UK Chancellor Gordon Brown among others - are companies which buy up the debt of poor nations cheaply when it is about to be written off, then sue for the full value of the debt plus interest.
There are concerns that such funds are wiping out the benefits which international debt relief was supposed to bring to poor countries.
A Zambian presidential adviser and consultant to Oxfam, Martin Kalunga-Banda, said $42m was equal to all the debt relief it received last year.
"It means 30,000 children who would have benefited from going to school free will not be able to do so," he told the BBC.
"It also means the treatment, the Medicare, the medicines that would have been available to in excess of 100,000 people in the country will not be available."
Mr Kalunga-Banda added that while the repayment might be legal, it arose from debts accrued when the country was under "an undemocratic system".
"The consequences of the debt are impacting on the people of Zambia," he said.
"The Zambians at that time did not even have even the capacity to know this was happening and that is probably what brings in this issue of unfairness."
'No comment'
In 1979, the Romanian government lent Zambia money to buy Romanian tractors.
Zambia was unable to keep up the payments and in 1999, Romania and Zambia negotiated to liquidate the debt for $3m.
But before the deal could be finalised, Donegal International, which is part owned by US-based Debt Advisory International (DAI) stepped in and bought the debt from Romania for less than $4m.
DAI founder Michael Sheehan was confronted by the BBC's Newsnight programme before the court ruling, but said only: "No comment. I'm in litigation. It's not my debt."
In 2002, Gordon Brown told the United Nations that the vulture funds were perverse and immoral.
"We particularly condemn the perversity where vulture funds purchase debt at a reduced price and make a profit from suing the debtor country to recover the full amount owed - a morally outrageous outcome."
Jubilee Debt campaigner Caroline Pearce said that vulture funds "made a mockery" of the work done by governments to write off the debts of the poorest - a key theme of 2005's Live8 concert.
"Profiteering doesn't get any more cynical than this," Ms Pearce said.
"Zambia has been planning to spend the money released from debt cancellation on much-needed nurses, teachers and infrastructure.
"This is what debt cancellation is intended for, not to line the pockets of businessmen based in rich countries." |
|
|
|
|
underh20
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 9885
Location: EOA Seminar
|
| Posted:
Feb 16, 2007 - 09:01 AM |
|
|
Welfare-state mentality and financial incompetence are a bitch.  |
_________________
بارك الله ، بارك الله |
|
|
|
|
theAutumn45
Rocker
Joined: Oct 28, 2005
Posts: 796
|
| Posted:
Feb 16, 2007 - 09:51 PM |
|
|
But still the greedy of merchants should be controlled. In the international level, there is no such a body controlling those bastards who get rich out of other’s miseries.
Those debt purchasers were the success stories of Business Week few years back. They used to play only in the developed countries, now their hands have extended to all corners of globe. During China’s bank system reform, they had purchased significant amount of non-performance debts. I don’t know what have happened to those debts; likely, it may have caused more workers out of work.
Another issue I have thought over is the existence of so many small nations in Africa. Small nations have its advantages, like Singapore and South Korea, but could also easily become failed states without enough resources at their disposal. |
|
|
|
|
|
underh20
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 9885
Location: EOA Seminar
|
| Posted:
Feb 16, 2007 - 11:45 PM |
|
|
They don't need more resources. They need fewer thieves.
Give some examples of merchants that get rich out of others' miseries, if you can. |
_________________
بارك الله ، بارك الله |
|
|
|
|
theAutumn45
Rocker
Joined: Oct 28, 2005
Posts: 796
|
| Posted:
Feb 17, 2007 - 01:01 AM |
|
|
 Examples are many. Here are a few:
Debt collectors - I knew one he was a Harvard MBA, and those who lend money at extra high interest rates, and those under the "Tales of Nanjin Lu" who ripped off foreigners and tourists. Under the capitalism, it releases the monster, called “Greed". Many would do anything to strike rich.
That human “Greed” should be controlled to protect the poor and the disadvantaged, and the general public. |
|
|
|
|
|
underh20
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 9885
Location: EOA Seminar
|
| Posted:
Feb 17, 2007 - 08:38 AM |
|
|
^ You must be confused.
We are talking about national debts here, especially in Africa. We are not talking about people who lend you money at high interest rates because you have a crappy credit rating. |
_________________
بارك الله ، بارك الله |
|
|
|
|
theAutumn45
Rocker
Joined: Oct 28, 2005
Posts: 796
|
| Posted:
Feb 17, 2007 - 09:21 AM |
|
|
Is it obvious from the posted article?
| Quote: |
| British Virgin Islands-based Donegal International paid less than $4m (£2m) for a debt the African nation owed, but sued Zambia for a $42m repayment. |
And how much would be the legal fee for Zambia? |
|
|
|
|
|
underh20
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 9885
Location: EOA Seminar
|
| Posted:
Feb 17, 2007 - 10:07 AM |
|
|
You do not have a firm grasp on the legal liabilities of debt or simple math, right?
Zambia was lent money and turned deadbeat. Donegal sued to recover debt, years of interest, expenses and legal fees. Most people when they sue they inflate the demand amount knowing whatever they demand will be reduced in court.
Donegal ends up with $20 million. Zambia learns that their entire existence as a deadbeat nation cannot continue forever.
Oh, you fail to mention how much the original debt was for. It was obviously for something like $5 million or more plus another 7 years of interest. You do the math. |
_________________
بارك الله ، بارك الله |
|
|
|
|
theAutumn45
Rocker
Joined: Oct 28, 2005
Posts: 796
|
| Posted:
Feb 19, 2007 - 09:50 PM |
|
|
So I did the simple math from your assumptions - original 5 millions to 20 millions. That is 15 million interests. Have a heart!
In the developed countries, there is a way to declare bankruptcy to get out of the hardhship. In the international level for a poor and small country, there is no choice for such thing. So who is going to pay for the 15 million interests plus legal fees, unfortunately it's the majority of the poor and the disadvantaged populations.
The whole idea is there are efforts to reduce the poverty thru debt relieves. Now this private company comes to teach the nation a lesson. Being registered on the Virgin Island, the company likely won’t have to pay any taxes to any governments.
Again -
| Quote: |
In 2002, Gordon Brown told the United Nations that the vulture funds were perverse and immoral.
"We particularly condemn the perversity where vulture funds purchase debt at a reduced price and make a profit from suing the debtor country to recover the full amount owed - a morally outrageous outcome."
Jubilee Debt campaigner Caroline Pearce said that vulture funds "made a mockery" of the work done by governments to write off the debts of the poorest - a key theme of 2005's Live8 concert.
"Profiteering doesn't get any more cynical than this," Ms Pearce said.
"Zambia has been planning to spend the money released from debt cancellation on much-needed nurses, teachers and infrastructure.
"This is what debt cancellation is intended for, not to line the pockets of businessmen based in rich countries." |
It’s absurd if you don’t see the immoral side of this transaction! |
|
|
|
|
|
underh20
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 9885
Location: EOA Seminar
|
| Posted:
Feb 19, 2007 - 10:16 PM |
|
|
The immoral side is a nation who steals ... er, I mean ... borrows ... several million dollars and then just walks away. At least this felon government can say up front that they expect a welfare payment. |
_________________
بارك الله ، بارك الله |
|
|
|
|
theAutumn45
Rocker
Joined: Oct 28, 2005
Posts: 796
|
| Posted:
Feb 19, 2007 - 10:23 PM |
|
|
That does not make those vulture fund companies any more moral! |
|
|
|
|
|
underh20
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 9885
Location: EOA Seminar
|
| Posted:
Feb 19, 2007 - 10:52 PM |
|
|
Morality isn't the issue. Will you cry morals when you turn deadbeat and bill collectors force you to pay or will you accept responsability for your financial stupidity? |
_________________
بارك الله ، بارك الله |
|
|
|
|
theAutumn45
Rocker
Joined: Oct 28, 2005
Posts: 796
|
| Posted:
Feb 20, 2007 - 04:10 AM |
|
|
I'm a socialist who cares more for the poor and the disadvantaged, you seem a die-hard capitalist., who cares nothing but the bottom line. I have no more to say! |
|
|
|
|
|
underh20
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 9885
Location: EOA Seminar
|
| Posted:
Feb 20, 2007 - 10:01 AM |
|
|
| theAutumn45 wrote: |
| I'm a socialist who cares more for the poor and the disadvantaged, you seem a die-hard capitalist., who cares nothing but the bottom line. |
No, I care about people stealing money that ultimately gets added to my tax bill.
| theAutumn45 wrote: |
| I have no more to say! |
Good. You can get relief at alt.moneygrowsontrees |
_________________
بارك الله ، بارك الله |
|
|
|
|
theAutumn45
Rocker
Joined: Oct 28, 2005
Posts: 796
|
| Posted:
Feb 21, 2007 - 02:39 AM |
|
|
Your tax dollars likely help to avoid the blood spill from poor's rebellion/ revolution. |
|
|
|
|
|
theAutumn45
Rocker
Joined: Oct 28, 2005
Posts: 796
|
| Posted:
Feb 21, 2007 - 02:42 AM |
|
|
"How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak. Because someday in life you will have been all of these."
By Georage Washington Carver |
|
|
|
|
|
underh20
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 9885
Location: EOA Seminar
|
| Posted:
Feb 21, 2007 - 10:25 AM |
|
|
| theAutumn45 wrote: |
"How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak. Because someday in life you will have been all of these."
By Georage Washington Carver |
Um ... can you use Google to find a quote originally not made in the context of international relations? |
_________________
بارك الله ، بارك الله |
|
|
|
|
rayfish
LoopKicker
Joined: June 11, 2006
Posts: 987
|
| Posted:
Feb 22, 2007 - 07:57 AM |
|
|
From equinetafrica.org:
"To illustrate, Africa’s debt crisis worsened during the era of globalization. The
continent now repays more than it ever received, with outflow in the form of debt
repayments equivalent to three times the inflow in loans and, for most African
countries, far exceeding export earnings. The debt relief measures announced in
mid-2005 by the G7 finance ministers have not disturbed either the draining of
Africa’s financial accounts or the maintenance of debt-associated control functions.
Underlying the Gleneagles proposals was the notion of “sustainable” service
repayments (varying by country but typically not exceeding 20% of export
earnings). Africa has repaid more than it received in new loans since the 1990s.
Overall, during the 1980s and 1990s, Africa repaid $255 billion (U.S. dollars), or
4.2 times the original 1980 debt. For some countries (including Cameroon, the
Gambia, Mauritania, Senegal, and Zambia), servicing the debt far exceeded
government health spending.
"In 1980, inflow was comfortably higher than the debt repayment outflow, but
soon thereafter Africa suffered from the U.S. Federal Reserve’s tripling of U.S.
interest rates. Paying abnormally high interest rates to service loans required new
loans. By 2000, the net flow deficit reached $6.2 billion, as the new loans no longer
paid the interest on old loans. For 21 African countries, the debt reached at least
300 percent of exports by 2002, and for countries such as Sudan, Burundi,
Sierra Leone, and Guinea-Bissau, it was 15 times greater than their annual export
earnings."
...............
"Finally, on the financial accounts, there is the matter of capital flight. Flows of
private African finance shifted from a net inflow during the 1970s, to gradual
outflows during the 1980s, to substantial outflows during the 1990s. Using Bank
for International Settlements data, Eric Toussaint (with the assistance of Damien
Millet) estimates that the total overseas accounts of African citizens in Northern
banks and tax havens in 2003 were $80 billion (8, p. 150). At the same time,
African countries owed $30 billion to those very banks. The two leading scholars
of capital flight, James Boyce and Léonce Ndikumana (17), conclude that
“sub-Saharan Africa thus appears to be a net creditor vis-à-vis the rest of the
world,” since a core group of sub-Saharan African countries whose foreign debt
was $178 billion suffered a quarter century of capital flight by elites—from 1970 to
1996—that totaled more than $285 billion (including imputed interest earnings).
The sub-Saharan African countries with the worst capital flight problems are
Nigeria ($98 billion more than its foreign debt, when interest on capital flight is
also added), the Ivory Coast ($15 billion), the DRC ($10.1 billion), Angola ($9.2
billion), and Zambia ($5.5 billion) (17). Capital flight from Africa is a lower figure
than that from other regions, but a higher proportion of a continent’s GDP than
anywhere else. More than $10 billion has left Nigeria, C_te d’Ivoire, the DRC,
Angola, and Zambia collectively per year since the early 1970s. In 2004, the IMF
found that resident African official outflows from Africa had exceeded $10 billion a
year, on average, since 1998 (18, p. 196). A large portion of this amount reflects
changes in South African capital controls that permitted residents to offload shares
of the largest Johannesburg firms to London purchasers. However, very high
outflows continued even after those share deals had their one-off impact.
While this sort of financial liberalization has taken root in Africa, even its
proponents admit that it has manifestly failed to achieve growth and stability" |
|
|
|
|
underh20
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 9885
Location: EOA Seminar
|
| Posted:
Feb 22, 2007 - 11:12 AM |
|
|
| RawFishStein wrote: |
| From equinetafrica.org: |
Hmmm ... how many millions of Google hits did you wade through to find the one that best suited your particular flavor of reality?
| RawFishStein wrote: |
| ... The continent now repays more than it ever received ...[ |
Darn, aren't interest, late payment and default fees a bitch? How dare banks make people pay for being financially irresponsible and stupid!!
| RawFishStein wrote: |
| ... since a core group of sub-Saharan African countries whose foreign debt was $178 billion suffered a quarter century of capital flight by elites—from 1970 to 1996—that totaled more than $285 billion (including imputed interest earnings). |
Well, I suppose an alternative is just to keep their money at home where their pristine, morally and ethically intact government of the day can ensure it never gets stolen or nationalized.
Oh, wait a minute, could those elites actually be their pristine, morally and ethically intact government of the day?
| RawFishStein wrote: |
... outflow in the form of debt repayments equivalent to three times the inflow in loans ...
... Africa has repaid more than it received in new loans since the 1990s. ...
... In 1980, inflow was comfortably higher than the debt repayment outflow ...
... to service loans required new loans ...
... the new loans no longer paid the interest on old loans ... |
This smells like the credit card junkie who borrows off his Citibank Visa to pay his Bank of America Visa card. Sooner or later this loan kiting scheme falls apart. Of course, that the credit card junkie uses the money to play the slot machines, snort coke or for his wife's sister's silicon implants means that his loans were put to real good use in the first place, no? Let him join the welfare lines along with other Americans like, say, Zimbabwe or the likes. 
To be fair, though, there are people who run up insurmountable credit card debt because of, say, medical emergencies and long-term illnesses. He's going to have to fly to the Cape of Good Hope to get at the end of the welfare lines.
| RawFishStein wrote: |
| Africa suffered from the U.S. Federal Reserve’s tripling of U.S. interest rates. Paying abnormally high interest rates to service loans required new loans. |
Well, that's a novel idea ... the Fed raises interest rates and everybody pays them except, say, Africa. Try selling that to people with adjustable rate mortgages who suddenly realize that their interest rates were ... umm ... adjustable.
RawFishStein, why don't you give up your day job as a Slurpee salesman and invent a tree that grows money? Then maybe your alt.leftwingdrivel would make sense. Maybe. 
You know, RawFishStein, you have already proven to us innumerable times that your understanding of economics and basic finance is, shall we say, lacking. Real experts in economics such as Dr. George Ayittey of American University have a different view:
| Professor George Ayittey wrote: |
Well, true, there has been some conditionalities in the sense that this debt relief is supposed to release resources to be devoted to education, healthcare and infrastructure, for example. In the past African government made such promises but they never carried them out.
And also we all know the big elephant in the room. The big elephant in the room is African governments. Africa has been totally mismanaged and misruled in the past decade, but nobody wants to talk about that because of political correctness. Africa's begging bowl leaks horribly. As a matter of fact, the African Union itself estimated that every year corruption alone costs Africa $148 billion. If African leaders could cut that in half, they'll find more money than what Tony Blair is trying to raise for them.
Well, it is definitely a necessary condition for many Africans because we know that the African regimes, many African regimes have failed their people and many Africans want regime change, and there are a lot of African leaders who make promises but don't carry them out.
I mean, the progress -- I mean, it is noble for the rich countries to help Africa, but then the question is: What are African leaders themselves doing to help their own people?
When Uganda got debt relief in 1999, the first item President Museveni bought was a presidential jacket for himself. I mean, look at Ethiopia, for example. Smart aid is what will empower the African people to instigate reform from within. The United States and rich countries cannot change Africa from within. It has to impose reform on Africa; it has to come from within. |
http://media.pbs.org/ramgen/newshour/expansion/2005/06/13/debt28.rm?al tplay=debt28.rm
Interesting how Dr. Jeffrey Sachs, director of the Earth Institute, professor of development and health policy at Columbia University and a special adviser to United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan agrees. |
_________________
بارك الله ، بارك الله |
|
|
|
|
rayfish
LoopKicker
Joined: June 11, 2006
Posts: 987
|
| Posted:
Feb 22, 2007 - 02:06 PM |
|
|
Jeffrey Sachs! Kofi Annan! Wow, you trumped me there!
You mean these respectable figures support the basic premise of international capital to flow in and out of vulnerable regions at the expense of the poor and disenfranchised? You are saying that 'directors' of the whatchamabob institute and 'leaders' of reputable international organizations agree with you that Africa is a deadbeat debtor? What a surprise! Examples of how African leaders fill their pockets, no, can't be! You mean those same African leaders who make the honourable deals with repectable Western banks and creditors?
OK, Underh20, I know you're an economics wizard, but for the feeble-minded among us, let's go through this step by step, OK? Stay with me now, follow closely:
Step 1. Good Samaritans like the IMF, the World Bank and other private creditors lend developing nations money.
Translation: During an inflationary period (1970s) with an excess of money supply in the international system, primary the result of oversupply of 'petrodollars' in circulation, major economic institutions choose to diffuse this concentration by flushing capital out of the major channels into developing economies using the form of 'loans.'
Step 2. The governments of developing countries sign a pledge to honour their commitment to repay the loans.
Translation: Non-elected corrupt private 'governments' tied to the international system agree to take this 'loan' to further enrich themselves, while helping the big players to rid themselves of excess capital in the system.
Step 3. The debtor government starts squandering the loan
Translation: The private individuals who control these 'debtor' governments start sending the money abroad for investment or sheltering with the knowledge of the creditors in offshore accounts indirectly controled or sanctioned by the creditors.
Step 4. The debtor nation agrees with the creditors' demands for structural adjustment to pay off the loans.
Translation: The debtor nations' private individuals who control the economy, acting under 'government authority,' start to use the state and national treasury as collateral to 'pay off the debt.' This means cuts for state workers and cuts to health and education, etc., while they continue to privately redirect the 'loan' abroad. Privatization of the gains, socialization of the debt.
Step 5. Debtor nation defaults
Translation: Despite the series of structural adjustments and shrinking national sector, growing unemployment etc., the compound interest payments are impossible to pay, so they press for new terms. The 'debtor nation' government is well aware that the creditors need to maintain the relationship, and when a social explosion is imminent, they declare default to warn the creditors.
Step 6. Renegotiate or Cancel the debt
Translation: The creditors know the reality that there are limits to exploitation and choose to 'write off' the principal of the loan or a period of payments in order to better situate themselves for longterm extraction of resources. Sometimes they even 'cancel' the 'debt' for public relations purposes when struggling with another creditor for the 'loan' market. |
|
|
|
|
|
underh20
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 9885
Location: EOA Seminar
|
| Posted:
Feb 22, 2007 - 04:29 PM |
|
|
[quote="RawFishStein"]You mean these respectable figures support the basic premise of international capital to flow in and out of vulnerable regions at the expense of the poor and disenfranchised?
| RawFishStein wrote: |
ot your forte, RFS?
If the government of your poor and disenfranchised permit capital flight or even -- surprise, surprise -- initiate capital flight, then this is something those poor and disenfranchised need to take up internally.
Of course, since it isn't your money -- I mean, after all, how much can a Slurpee machine operator actually pay in taxes?? -- the solution is for the governments of richer nations to pump more and more money into what has historically been a bottomless pit of waste, abuse and corruption. Better yet, why not just annex those nations and make them states?
[quote="RawFishStein"]You are saying that 'directors' of the whatchamabob institute and 'leaders' of reputable international organizations agree with you that Africa is a deadbeat debtor? What a surprise! Examples of how African leaders fill their pockets, no, can't be! You mean those same African leaders who make the honourable deals with repectable Western banks and creditors? |
Do you have a point somewhere in there or have your meds interrupted your ability to control your typing finger?
You know, RFS, probably the only thing you've stated that demonstrates any semblance of logic or sense is your admission that you are feeble-minded. I applaud you on the only time you have been honest on this forum.
Everything else you write sounds like, in a nutshell, something you might hear Hugo Chavez or his one-time patron saint Alan Garcia whine and moan about. Alan Garcia, however, somehow overcame that genetic obstacle and has changed course while Hugo Chavez has moved on to bigger and better things. That only leaves our own RawFishStein with that inherently lovable dominant welfare-state genetic code in his DNA.
Do us a favor, RFS, and enlighten us with your comprehensive solution to the issue of poverty and debt reduction of African nations. Please include your academic and professional credentials so we may stand in awe of your unique ability and genius in the field.
Meanwhile, please give me a password to view your website where you show that money grows on trees. |
_________________
بارك الله ، بارك الله |
|
|
|
|
underh20
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 9885
Location: EOA Seminar
|
| Posted:
Feb 22, 2007 - 04:32 PM |
|
|
Sorry about the double post. |
_________________
بارك الله ، بارك الله
Last edited by underh20 on Feb 23, 2007 - 08:02 AM; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
|
rayfish
LoopKicker
Joined: June 11, 2006
Posts: 987
|
| Posted:
Feb 22, 2007 - 10:28 PM |
|
|
Thanks for the insults....and the smileys...and the double post...and the obsessive references to academia...and the typical comments about genetic code.
Where's the beef? |
|
|
|
|
|
rayfish
LoopKicker
Joined: June 11, 2006
Posts: 987
|
| Posted:
Feb 22, 2007 - 11:08 PM |
|
|
Private individual capital in the developing countries uses public 'government authority' to 'borrow' money which is (unofficially) recirculated for profit abroad. The national resources of the state are put up as collateral for the loan, while the signees invest the capital abroad. Officially, the losses are nationalized domestically ('structural adjustments'), while unofficially the profits (of the recirculated capital) are privatized abroad.
Put that in your bubble wrap and chew it |
|
|
|
|
|
underh20
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 9885
Location: EOA Seminar
|
| Posted:
Feb 23, 2007 - 08:05 AM |
|
|
We're still waiting for your exclusive solution to the age-old problem on the African continent.
In as much as you know it will be full of holes and we'll all laugh at you, your reluctance to post one is highly understandable.
Or are you still wading through Google to try and find your solutiuon? |
_________________
بارك الله ، بارك الله |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum FAQ
Search
Preferences
Watched Topics
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
