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yu888
Board Deity
Joined: Jan 25, 2003
Posts: 19241
Location: ZhongShanParkArea SH
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Oct 14, 2008 - 12:22 PM |
 
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Some scary info actually if one puts it all together. Here in Shanghai, we are at the END of the Yangtzee River and the water we get is from its tributary, the Huang Pu River. It is said that the wtaer we use here has been used by over 30 people before it gets to us. The ultimate in recycling I suppose, but scary when you see the statistics:
| Quote: |
"The overall percentage of urban population connected to a sewage treatment plant in China is currently estimated at about 34%. 17,000 towns have no wastewater treatment". |
Makes one wonder, or try NOT to wonder how many of those towns are upstream from Shanghai?
| Quote: |
| Sewage is often dumped into the fields creating a breeding ground for disease in rural China. |
Where again does our produce come from?
SIgh. Must admit I am more glad about having gotten a drinking water filter as well as the shower filters than ever as I read more about the water situation here. |
_________________
The right to free speech does not grant you freedom from the repercussions of what you say. This and more on my Blog...Random Thoughts about Living in Shanghai...and more |
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DL573
Talker
Joined: Sep 14, 2006
Posts: 90
Status: Offline
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Nov 28, 2008 - 04:41 AM |
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| peterex wrote: |
| Please be careful when using these high tech filters in the home. Pure H2O is very reactive and EXTREMEMLY toxic. |
This is total nonsense. The above assertion proves this person doesn't understand the meaning of the terms "reactive" and "toxic".
"Reactive" means a chemical will readily undergo reactions with other chemicals, normally due to an imbalance of positive and negative charges. Water is a peculiar chemical, in the sense that it has a high dipole and an incredibly high melting and boiling point considering its small molecular weight. However, it is not particularly "reactive", on the contrary, it is unreactive and stable - that's one reason why we use water to put out fires. There are many biochemical reactions where water is a reactant, especially catabolic reactions, such as breaking down large food molecules (ex. starch, protein). But all these reactions are enzymatically catalyzed; if you mix water and a starch solution nothing will happen until the enzyme is added - because water itself is not "reactive".
There are probably few scientific terms less well understood by the public than "toxic". Toxicity is how we describe the interaction of a biological system with a chemical deleterious to that system in some way. For example, nerve gases are toxic because they interfere with the action of the acetylcholinesterase enzyme, which is involved with nerve signal transmission. Toxicity is very specific, it involves the interaction of one chemical with another. You can propose "rules of thumb" like "heavy metals are bad", but there are lots of exceptions (e.g., gold is almost biologically inert). And this unpredictability holds on the biological side as well; for example, chocolate is food to humans, but toxic to dogs, because canine genes, and the proteins they code for, are similar - but not identical - to human ones. In any case, calling water "toxic" is just ridiculous. Life on earth began in water and all the machinery in cells is dissolved in water. It is literally impossible for water to be "toxic" to earth-based life in the true sense of the word. (Drowning is not toxicity; it's what happens when a terrestrial animal leaves its niche. When you drown, you don't die because you are poisoned, you die because your body has evolved to extract oxygen from air, not from water.)
| peterex wrote: |
| It acts as a sponge, and will absorb salts and minerals from the body. That's why minerals are added post-filtration-- not just for taste. |
There is a grain of truth here taken way too far. There is indeed a phenomenon called "osmosis" that can leach minerals from the body when the body comes into contact with pure water (or water that is not pure, but has a lower salt concentration than the body itself). What is missing from this discussion is any sense of the MAGNITUDE of this phenomenon and whether that magnitude is large enough to cause any harmful effect. In my opinion as a former life science researcher, for ordinary people living typical lives, the magnitude of mineral loss due to consumption, or washing with, distilled water is going to be far, far too small to make any significant difference to health. Remember the geometry of the body and the digestive tract. Even if you immerse yourself in distilled water for 18 hours a day and drink 20 liters of deionized water a day, most of the cells in your body have no contact with that water; only your skin and the lining of your digestive tract would. And assuming you have enough sense to keep eating food whilst you are undergoing this weird program, most of the minerals you lost to the water would be replaced from the food anyway. Another point is that the digestive tract is lined with mucus; it is designed to absorb beneficial materials from what passes through it, not lose them.
So, the idea that drinking pure water, or showering in it, could by itself cause mineral deficiency, is absurd on its face. I will happily retract this claim, though, if anyone can point me to a single published case report of an individual experiencing mineral deficiency for this reason. Mineral deficiency itself is pretty common, especially in developing countries. But in almost every case, it happens because of insufficient INTAKE of the mineral, not because of excessive LOSS of the mineral (due to contact with distilled water, or any other reason). Mineral deficiencies that are attributable to loss usually have a pretty obvious cause (e.g., females are vulnerable to iron deficiency anemia due to the monthly loss of menstrual blood, which can deplete the body's iron pool if the diet does not replace it.) |
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nj..
Talker
Joined: July 13, 2007
Posts: 113
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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Nov 28, 2008 - 01:56 PM |
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[/quote]Must admit I am more glad about having gotten a drinking water filter as well as the shower filters than ever as I read more about the water situation here.[/quote]
Are shower filters easily available? How much do they cost? |
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yu888
Board Deity
Joined: Jan 25, 2003
Posts: 19241
Location: ZhongShanParkArea SH
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Nov 28, 2008 - 02:41 PM |
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emerson
Ranter
Joined: May 11, 2007
Posts: 529
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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Nov 28, 2008 - 05:11 PM |
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| DL573 wrote: |
| peterex wrote: |
| Please be careful when using these high tech filters in the home. Pure H2O is very reactive and EXTREMEMLY toxic. |
This is total nonsense. The above assertion proves this person doesn't understand the meaning of the terms "reactive" and "toxic".
"Reactive" means a chemical will readily undergo reactions with other chemicals, normally due to an imbalance of positive and negative charges. Water is a peculiar chemical, in the sense that it has a high dipole and an incredibly high melting and boiling point considering its small molecular weight. However, it is not particularly "reactive", on the contrary, it is unreactive and stable - that's one reason why we use water to put out fires. There are many biochemical reactions where water is a reactant, especially catabolic reactions, such as breaking down large food molecules (ex. starch, protein). But all these reactions are enzymatically catalyzed; if you mix water and a starch solution nothing will happen until the enzyme is added - because water itself is not "reactive".
There are probably few scientific terms less well understood by the public than "toxic". Toxicity is how we describe the interaction of a biological system with a chemical deleterious to that system in some way. For example, nerve gases are toxic because they interfere with the action of the acetylcholinesterase enzyme, which is involved with nerve signal transmission. Toxicity is very specific, it involves the interaction of one chemical with another. You can propose "rules of thumb" like "heavy metals are bad", but there are lots of exceptions (e.g., gold is almost biologically inert). And this unpredictability holds on the biological side as well; for example, chocolate is food to humans, but toxic to dogs, because canine genes, and the proteins they code for, are similar - but not identical - to human ones. In any case, calling water "toxic" is just ridiculous. Life on earth began in water and all the machinery in cells is dissolved in water. It is literally impossible for water to be "toxic" to earth-based life in the true sense of the word. (Drowning is not toxicity; it's what happens when a terrestrial animal leaves its niche. When you drown, you don't die because you are poisoned, you die because your body has evolved to extract oxygen from air, not from water.)
| peterex wrote: |
| It acts as a sponge, and will absorb salts and minerals from the body. That's why minerals are added post-filtration-- not just for taste. |
There is a grain of truth here taken way too far. There is indeed a phenomenon called "osmosis" that can leach minerals from the body when the body comes into contact with pure water (or water that is not pure, but has a lower salt concentration than the body itself). What is missing from this discussion is any sense of the MAGNITUDE of this phenomenon and whether that magnitude is large enough to cause any harmful effect. In my opinion as a former life science researcher, for ordinary people living typical lives, the magnitude of mineral loss due to consumption, or washing with, distilled water is going to be far, far too small to make any significant difference to health. Remember the geometry of the body and the digestive tract. Even if you immerse yourself in distilled water for 18 hours a day and drink 20 liters of deionized water a day, most of the cells in your body have no contact with that water; only your skin and the lining of your digestive tract would. And assuming you have enough sense to keep eating food whilst you are undergoing this weird program, most of the minerals you lost to the water would be replaced from the food anyway. Another point is that the digestive tract is lined with mucus; it is designed to absorb beneficial materials from what passes through it, not lose them.
So, the idea that drinking pure water, or showering in it, could by itself cause mineral deficiency, is absurd on its face. I will happily retract this claim, though, if anyone can point me to a single published case report of an individual experiencing mineral deficiency for this reason. Mineral deficiency itself is pretty common, especially in developing countries. But in almost every case, it happens because of insufficient INTAKE of the mineral, not because of excessive LOSS of the mineral (due to contact with distilled water, or any other reason). Mineral deficiencies that are attributable to loss usually have a pretty obvious cause (e.g., females are vulnerable to iron deficiency anemia due to the monthly loss of menstrual blood, which can deplete the body's iron pool if the diet does not replace it.) |
Easily one of the most informative, well written and, even, amusing posts I have read on Shexpat this year. Thanks. |
_________________
Depth perception: the difference between brown nosing and kissing *ss |
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maneo
LoopKicker
Joined: May 12, 2007
Posts: 849
Location: neither here nor there
Status: Offline
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Dec 06, 2008 - 12:51 PM |
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This is downright dangerous stuff in any purity.
Besides death due to accidental inhalation, prolonged exposure to the solid can cause severe tissue damage and in gaseous state it can cause severe burns.
Check the facts:
http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html |
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DL573
Talker
Joined: Sep 14, 2006
Posts: 90
Status: Offline
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 Posted:
Dec 21, 2008 - 09:08 PM |
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| maneo wrote: |
This is downright dangerous stuff in any purity.
Besides death due to accidental inhalation, prolonged exposure to the solid can cause severe tissue damage and in gaseous state it can cause severe burns.
Check the facts:
http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html |
Thanks for that, one of the funniest websites I've seen in months.
Consumed by dangerous dogs involved in recent deadly attacks! Used by the Church of Scientology! And my favorite, used by Al-Qaeda!
Truly, we all must do our part to ban dihydrogen monoxide.
Funniest part of it is that every claim on the website is 100% true.
And if you are one of those priggish, risk-averse housewives who doesn't get the joke...you might want to take a chemistry class...or failing that, GET A LIFE...
[/code] |
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lydia2008
Lurker
Joined: Nov 23, 2008
Posts: 30
Status: Offline
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Feb 18, 2009 - 05:31 PM |
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We just moved from the States and have settled in XuHui. Based on this long thread, it seems to me that we should buy some kind of filter. However, since we are renters, perhaps the Atlantis Drinking Water Purifier might be too expensive. I think we should probably go with bottled water and might buy the Showerbaby and water baby/Ozone water tap. My questions are:
1. We have a 6-months old baby. And we are currently use Watsons bottled water with minerals. Should we use Watsons distilled water for baby formula instead?
2. What is the difference between Water baby Tap Filter and Ozone water tap, besides the price point?
Thanks. |
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yu888
Board Deity
Joined: Jan 25, 2003
Posts: 19241
Location: ZhongShanParkArea SH
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Feb 18, 2009 - 06:06 PM |
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1) Continue using your normal Watsons with minerals for formula.
2) Waterbaby removes chlorine; Ozone tap adds ozone to make the water help disinfect but is not appropriate for hot water. |
_________________
The right to free speech does not grant you freedom from the repercussions of what you say. This and more on my Blog...Random Thoughts about Living in Shanghai...and more |
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lydia2008
Lurker
Joined: Nov 23, 2008
Posts: 30
Status: Offline
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Feb 18, 2009 - 06:11 PM |
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Does that mean I'll use waterbaby for taking a bath in the tub? And Ozone to help disinfect and wash fruits & vegetables? If Ozone helps disinfect fruits and vegetables, won't it be cheaper using bottled water to wash these items? We might want to move out of this apartment after a year or two, so don't want to spend too much on a rental... |
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yu888
Board Deity
Joined: Jan 25, 2003
Posts: 19241
Location: ZhongShanParkArea SH
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Feb 18, 2009 - 10:28 PM |
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i'd splurge a bit and get the Showerbaby instead as the showerhead is more versatile and is easily taken with you to whatever apartment you move to.
Bottled water does not react to pesticides and organic contaminants like ozone infused water would. |
_________________
The right to free speech does not grant you freedom from the repercussions of what you say. This and more on my Blog...Random Thoughts about Living in Shanghai...and more |
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Soldano
Talker
Joined: July 29, 2009
Posts: 116
Status: Offline
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Aug 14, 2009 - 04:04 PM |
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First time i came her i got think after going to KFC because of the ice cubes in the coke. Don't know if it has changed.
Also, the other day a restaurant served me tea that smelled like swimming pool water. |
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jomaria
Squeeker
Joined: Sep 01, 2009
Posts: 10
Status: Offline
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Sep 06, 2009 - 10:11 AM |
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i know this is reviving a 2.5 year old topic, but I'm sure the issue has not gone away.
the hard water here drives me absolutely bonkers! I found this product online:
http://www.littleplumber.com/
it's an English product and as far as I can see, not available in China, but if it would fix the problem, I'd be quite willing to order one and have it shipped here.
but before I resort to that ..... do you think it would work here? what i mean is, is the hard water problem in China due simply to limescale deposits? if there are other mineral deposits, would this product work just as effectively?
are there similar products available in China made specifically for the China market?
thanks |
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globalnomad
Seeker
Joined: Feb 02, 2009
Posts: 58
Status: Offline
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Sep 06, 2009 - 12:59 PM |
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I did a quick test of the water in my building (JinLinTiandi in Xintiandi) - luxury serviced apartment - and here are the results using a TDS meter to measure heavy metals content:
Kitchen sink: 250 ppm
Nestle mineral water bottle: 25 ppm
Reverse Osmosis filter in kitchen: 11 ppm
I want to find out how to measure the amount of chlorine in the shower and taps - any ideas?
Also, am moving to a villa in a few weeks and the house comes with a whole house filtration system called Canature AC/KDF150-1-300. I can't seem to find any info in English on this - does anyone know what this filters? Do I need RO if I have this?
The kitchen in the villa has an Everpure/H-100 filter, which B&Q also carries. I understand this is not RO, but B&Q says it works the same, which I find hard to believe as it does not come with its own tank. Does anyone have any experience with this? |
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Englishwang
Squeeker
Joined: July 07, 2008
Posts: 15
Status: Offline
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Sep 11, 2009 - 11:33 PM |
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| globalnomad wrote: |
I did a quick test of the water in my building (JinLinTiandi in Xintiandi) - luxury serviced apartment - and here are the results using a TDS meter to measure heavy metals content:
Kitchen sink: 250 ppm
Nestle mineral water bottle: 25 ppm
Reverse Osmosis filter in kitchen: 11 ppm
I want to find out how to measure the amount of chlorine in the shower and taps - any ideas?
Also, am moving to a villa in a few weeks and the house comes with a whole house filtration system called Canature AC/KDF150-1-300. I can't seem to find any info in English on this - does anyone know what this filters? Do I need RO if I have this?
The kitchen in the villa has an Everpure/H-100 filter, which B&Q also carries. I understand this is not RO, but B&Q says it works the same, which I find hard to believe as it does not come with its own tank. Does anyone have any experience with this? |
You can try the OTO ( one reagent to Chlorine) to test the chlorine content in the tap water. Get a layer of tap water in a transparent cup first and add several drips of OTO in it, you will see the water becomes yellow. The bigger the color change is, that means the more chlorine contained in the tap water. Actually chlorine content in the tap changes by the time because of evaporation. Normally, chlorine contained is a little more in the morning than in the afternoon.
Canature AC/KDF150-1-300[i] is a whole house water filtration system and works to remove mainly precipitates and bit particulates by its absorption, while Everpure/H-100 in your kitchen is a filter with KDF and ultra filtration membrane which you may have read many about through this thread. These filters do can get rid of a lot of things out of tap water. But they just can not work as well as to make water clean and healthy for your drinking.
Comparatively speaking, the tap water in Jin Lin Tian Di is quite good. I know that from two of my friends there. However, if you are in pursuit of a higher standard of water use or you move to a new place where the water may be not as good as JLTD, some chlorine filters may be still required for you.
[/i] |
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yu888
Board Deity
Joined: Jan 25, 2003
Posts: 19241
Location: ZhongShanParkArea SH
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Sep 12, 2009 - 02:11 AM |
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Chlorine in Shanghai water is a given. the levels vary from time to time because of how they treat the water going into the system, and in cases of apartment complexes, secondary sources of chlorine are added as they disinfect the roof top reservoirs. In a villa, the issue will be lower but still enough to dry skin and hair and as a mild carcinogen, the effects are cumulative.
You can bring in a sample to the Directway store as I have previous mentioned, and they will do a representative test with OT as mentioned above. This shows relative levels as compared to properly filtered water.
As for Whole house filters, none of them I found in China can fully remove heavy metals, which is really a concern since if it isn't filtred out, your body acts as the filter and it doesnt go away. Anyhow, a reverse osmosis or steam distillation treatment are pretty much the only commercially available options to make the drinking water healthy. |
_________________
The right to free speech does not grant you freedom from the repercussions of what you say. This and more on my Blog...Random Thoughts about Living in Shanghai...and more |
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Ah Beng
Rocker
Joined: May 14, 2008
Posts: 771
Location: Shanghai Paradise
Status: Offline
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Sep 12, 2009 - 09:46 AM |
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Where possible, the best option is to install a water filter system at the main water supply souce. This will ensure that the water get filtered to all parts of the apt.
My experience; after installation, water texture's nice and smells clean. (none of that chlorine odour) Boil the water, it taste just as good as any bottled water. It cost around 4000rmb for the filter system for my apt, and about 300rmb to change the filter every quarter. |
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globalnomad
Seeker
Joined: Feb 02, 2009
Posts: 58
Status: Offline
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Sep 18, 2009 - 04:32 PM |
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| Post subject: Heavy metal testing - wth pic |
So after doing my TDS test at home, I took some water samples to be tested for heavy metals. The below pictures shows two samples that have undergone testing for heavy metals using an electric device. The one on the left is water from the kitchen which has gone through the whole house Canature filter AND gone through an Everpure kitchen tap filter and is supposedly drinkable. Note that neither of these filters are RO. The sample on the right is water from a RO filter.
The brown stuff floating in the left sample and at the bottom of the cup is heavy metals. Do you want to cook with that, let alone drink that? I remember yu888 saying once that many people think boiling water will be ok, but it will not b/c it concentrates the heavy metals further.
The light brown color of the other sample is natural minerals that your body needs (at least that is what I was told).
So now I am going overboard and buying RO filters and chlorine filters, etc. What scares me is not knowing what water restaurants use for their tea, for their soups, for cooking, etc. |
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gommm
Newbie
Joined: Aug 21, 2009
Posts: 3
Status: Offline
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Sep 18, 2009 - 04:52 PM |
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I'm looking for a cheap and good all appartment filter to take out the chlorine.... I know that for drinking it's not enough but I'm planning on continuing to drink mineral water instead (because I don't like the taste from the water that went through the RO filter when I tasted it at the shop in beijing xi lu but then again I don't like Aquarius mineral water for example but like the nestle water... no accounting for taste right?)....
But I do want to at least get rid of the chlorine for when I'm taking a shower or washing cloth and so on...
So has anyone got some good recommendations?
Thanks
ps: @globalnomad
At least your filter seem to take out a bit of heavy metals... the unfiltered water directly from my tap was even worse when I had it tested |
Last edited by gommm on Sep 19, 2009 - 12:39 AM; edited 1 time in total |
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Ah Beng
Rocker
Joined: May 14, 2008
Posts: 771
Location: Shanghai Paradise
Status: Offline
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Sep 18, 2009 - 05:56 PM |
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^Here the filering system I got my landlord to install, check out;
http://www.ws-oasis.com/cn/main/products.html
(click on the 5th item, OASIS-1)
Main water filtering system,
Cost: 2480rmb (one-time fixed cost for installtion), Replace filters every 2 months: 300 rmb x 6 =1800rmb (per year)
Verdict: Nice & clean water, no smell of chlorine. |
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globalnomad
Seeker
Joined: Feb 02, 2009
Posts: 58
Status: Offline
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Sep 18, 2009 - 06:28 PM |
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My whle house filter is supposed to eliminate chlorine as well, but I tested the water from various faucets/showes and there is still chlorine. Although it is not that high a concentration, I am still going to get the filters that fit on to the faucet or showerhead to be extra safe. I believe they are called Waterbaby and Showerbaby or something to that effect. They will have them at the expat show this weekend. |
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yu888
Board Deity
Joined: Jan 25, 2003
Posts: 19241
Location: ZhongShanParkArea SH
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Sep 21, 2009 - 10:23 AM |
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Sorry, have not had a chance to check back in recently but since there is some mis information going on, I thought it best to correct it now.
Taste is an illusion when it comes to purity and healthfulness of water. Sadly, so is appearance of clarity. Chlorine is added into water to disinfect, but it ALSO clears up murkiness by baking it invisible, but many contaminants can still exists. A Carbon filter reacts to many, but not all ,chemicals and pollutants in the water. While extremely effective at removing chlorine and many otehr bad tastes resulting from contaminants, it does not remove many other organic and inorganic chemicals nor does it remove AnY heavy metals.
IN ORDER TO REMOVE HEAVY METALS, THE ONLY COMMERCIALLY AVAILABLE WATER FILETR SYSTEMS FOR HOME AVAILABLE IN CHINA ARE EITHER REVERSE OSMOSIS BASED OR STEAM DISTILLATION BASED. So any others basically take out most of the easiest to detect chemicals and pollutants but leave the heavy metals in for you to consume. DO NOT be fooled by your senses, GET YOUR WATER TESTED! |
_________________
The right to free speech does not grant you freedom from the repercussions of what you say. This and more on my Blog...Random Thoughts about Living in Shanghai...and more |
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zappy
Newbie
Joined: Sep 17, 2009
Posts: 7
Status: Offline
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Oct 12, 2009 - 01:02 PM |
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Hi guys
Does anyone know why the drinking water varies so much in prices (RMB12 - RMB28) per gallon? Which brand is more trustworthy? I am currently ordering the rand "sparkling " which is expensive (RMB28) and am thinking of switching to :Nestle, which is much cheaper. Any thoughts? |
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Shady_Slim
Reacher
Joined: Dec 08, 2008
Posts: 217
Location: Out by the next hutong...
Status: Offline
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Oct 12, 2009 - 01:18 PM |
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Been living in Shanghai since the late 80's, different appartments, from the 2 bedroom no lift chinese blocks to my present high rise in Xujiahui, i only drink bottled water, switched to Nestle this year since Watsons were not giving any good deals!
As for washing, brushing, i use the regular non filter tap water, in all these years, have had no problems with my skin, health etc...etc...
Could be because of all the alcohol i consume which kills of the bacteria left in me after the brushing and showers?? |
_________________
Don't argue with an idiot; people watching may not be able to tell the difference. |
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Shangstar
Fire-eater
Joined: Feb 07, 2008
Posts: 2785
Location: Spitland
Status: Offline
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Oct 12, 2009 - 01:55 PM |
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Doesnt steam based distillation also remove all nutrients and minerals? I have heard relying too much on this eventually causes your hair to fall out and your nails to go brittle. |
_________________
Charles Darwin: Differences between humans are differences in degree, not differences in kind |
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