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foreverinchina
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 Posted:
Apr 30, 2007 - 06:41 PM |
 
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| Post subject: Towards a Totalitarian Europe |
Europe is on its way to be a totalitarian state
Today we already have MEDA, tomorrow we will have Eurabia.
The Brussels Journal
on Mon, 2007-04-30 10:12
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2097
Former Soviet dissident Vladimir Bukovksy has warned that the European Union is on its way to becoming another Soviet Union. When people who have worked on higher levels in the EU system note similarities as well, it is time people start taking this idea seriously.
In 2002 Louis Michel, the then Belgian minister of foreign affairs and today a member of the European Commission, told the Belgian parliament that the EU will eventually encompass North Africa and the Middle East as well as Europe.
read more:
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2097 |
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jacobbarnes
Barker
Joined: Dec 14, 2006
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Apr 30, 2007 - 10:08 PM |
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Do you really believe that Eurpopean institutions are so fragile that you can't assimilate some muslims? Perhaps given the same opportunities and education muslims can be as pluralistic, tolerant and cosmopolitan as they were in the past (see, Spain ca.900-1300 a.d.--before the Christians took over and started slaughtering muslims, jews and heretics).
Denying them oppportunities will not solve the problem, isolating them will not solve the problem, deporting them will not solve the problem. Europe needs young workers to stave off an impending demographic crisis; muslims need jobs, freedom and opportunites. Both will continue to stagnate without the changes you oppose out of fear.
Chistendom is an outdated concept, or are you unaware of the existentialists, Nietzche and Freud? The EU is an attempt at a new model. I suggest you work with it, or propose a new one, but the 19th century is long gone, and defining national identity along race language and religion is as outdated as buggy whips.
Europe needs to build a concept of Europeaness based on shared civic values. Muslims need to figure out how to reconcile these values with their religion, or jetison the latter.
just my $.02 |
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foreverinchina
PopStar
Joined: Nov 21, 2005
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Apr 30, 2007 - 11:18 PM |
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before we go on, just two simple questions:
1. are you a muslim ?
2. are you a socialist ? |
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To govern a big country is like cooking a small fish.
Stir as little as possible.
- Lao Zi, Daode Jing 256 BC |
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jacobbarnes
Barker
Joined: Dec 14, 2006
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May 01, 2007 - 01:16 AM |
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ich
Reacher
Joined: Apr 13, 2006
Posts: 297
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May 01, 2007 - 04:05 AM |
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I'm on Jacob's side.. and I don't regard myself as a muslim or a socialist as well. The alternation of integration and isolation is such phenonmenon that couldn't be avoided universally. |
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horsemandk
StreetBeater
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
Posts: 2241
Location: Shanghai
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May 01, 2007 - 08:54 AM |
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I'd have to agree with jacob as well and I'm also a no - no.
It's all about democracy and if you follow the news you'd know that they have serious problems agreeing on even the smallest parts because individual countries are very protective when it comes to cultural values and ways.
You do know the meaning of totalitarian, right, totalitarian is like China today or Russia before it fell apart. A totalitarian state is characterized by a government in which the political authority exercises absolute and centralized control; "a totalitarian regime crushes all autonomous institutions in its drive to seize the human soul" |
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theAutumn45
Rocker
Joined: Oct 28, 2005
Posts: 796
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May 01, 2007 - 10:34 AM |
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You can't manage a large country without some form of totalitarianism. That’s what Europe is experiencing right now, for the well being of whole, or the interest of few individual regions, for the never ending regional wars or the peace and appeasement? It’s going to be a challenging issue to resolve for Europe for the decades to come.
China always has centralized government, and will always be so. On this harsh landscape, to survive needs collective wisdom. The key is not to let power fall to the crazy few. This is challenge not only to China, but other democracy as well. |
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hc
Post Roaster
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 4545
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May 01, 2007 - 12:22 PM |
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"You do know the meaning of totalitarian, right,"
No he doesnt.
Foreverinchina is only interested in starting controversial threads spreading hate towards muslims. He will do whatever it takes, including displaying his complete lack of education, in these threads.
He was the one starting a thread named "EU ready for action against Iran" when the news in the thread was actually about a minor poll that had nothing to do with military action at all.
He is the kind of low level brown shirt that are easily manipulated by the lousiest of the "leaders" of any sect, while thinking that he is really sophisticated and avant-guard.
He could be a hare krishna in a dirty airport or other equally demeaning sect ant, but god gave us the internet so unfortunately we need to put up with his racist canned shiat on a daily basis.
If ignorance was a crime, he'd be sitting in The Chair. |
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Click here to read the latest retarded PM Natalie sent me. Let's make her lose face and FINALLY leave this site. |
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foreverinchina
PopStar
Joined: Nov 21, 2005
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May 01, 2007 - 01:54 PM |
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My arguments against a mastodon Europe (or any other giant superstate) with too heterogenous cultures are based on the following:
Because of the cultural and language differences, it's almost impossible to imply proper "peace, order and good government" in an inconvenient, giant state.
The first and most important purpose of a state is to serve it's citizens. Not to organise tax collection. "No taxation without representation" Serving different citizens is almost impossible because of the very different needs and expectations.
The next list of arguments is based on
THE SIZE OF NATIONS
by Alberto Alesina / Enrico Spolaore
Harvard / Brown university 2003
in short:
There are more states in a democratic world than in a totalitarian world.
The cost of independance is lower in a world with open markets.
There is an increasing tendency to reconsider the costs of heterogeneity of a country towards the benefits of living together in a various-people -state
The cost of independance of a country is decreasing.
Public goods like education and social security can be offered more efficiently in an small homogenous country.
In safe world, public goods like security, defence, foreign affairs can be offered more efficiently on another, higher level than the state-level (NATO,..)
Large economic associations require large political associations, which implies inefficiency and corruption.
The importance of big countries or states is often exaggerated by many politicians and economists, often based on 200 years old economic situations. |
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To govern a big country is like cooking a small fish.
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Last edited by foreverinchina on May 01, 2007 - 03:42 PM; edited 1 time in total |
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foreverinchina
PopStar
Joined: Nov 21, 2005
Posts: 1253
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May 01, 2007 - 02:02 PM |
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| hc wrote: |
| "Foreverinchina is .... |
Hello hc, how are you today ? Do you feel well ?
Do you have any positive contribution to the subject of this thread ? |
_________________
To govern a big country is like cooking a small fish.
Stir as little as possible.
- Lao Zi, Daode Jing 256 BC |
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hc
Post Roaster
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 4545
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May 01, 2007 - 03:17 PM |
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foreverinchina
PopStar
Joined: Nov 21, 2005
Posts: 1253
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| Posted:
May 01, 2007 - 03:36 PM |
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You are very off-topic, so this is my last reply to you in this thread.
Please do not hijack this thread.
Haven't you seen my previous message ?
| hc wrote: |
| Since you arrived here you used this site as a platform to spill racism. .... He hates the Chinese, you hate Muslims. |
Hating muslims can't be racism. Muslims are not a race.
Islam is a doctrine, it's even not a proper religion, comparable to other decent religions. Islam is a violent, suppressing medievial way to keep simple people stupid.
| hc wrote: |
| .... And a good way to shut your respective mouths. |
That's your famous freedom of speech, right ?
Why are you so unhappy and frustrated ?
I wish you happiness and peace in mind. |
_________________
To govern a big country is like cooking a small fish.
Stir as little as possible.
- Lao Zi, Daode Jing 256 BC |
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jacobbarnes
Barker
Joined: Dec 14, 2006
Posts: 127
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May 01, 2007 - 10:31 PM |
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"Public goods like education and social security can be offered more efficiently in an small homogenous country."
I don't really see why, but I doubt your concerns stem from this. Anyways, I think the U.S. serves as a model of how federalism and a large degree of local autonomy can be maintained in a large continental state with a population of around 300 million. Granted it is currently vearing a little far to the right, but it is not yet anywhere close to totalitarian or socialist.
Which brings me to. . .
Quote from Autumn: "You can't manage a large country without some form of totalitarianism."
Not true. China is not the way it is because it has to be. I am not criticizing China, so lets not make this a any criticism of China is China bashing thread please.
Returning to the topic at hand. . . Islam can be used to incite violence, so can and so have the other two Abrahamic religions (same sh*t in different bags), you have heard of the inquisition, the crusades, King George Bush the II's current holy war, the religious wars in Europe during the reformation, the entire history of the state of Isreal, the massacare of the Caananites in the Bible, etc, etc., etc.
All three of these religions are based on exclusion and uncompromoising mon-theism. The Abrahamic god of the Torah or old testament is a spitefule jealous a**hole who repeatedly punishes his dear chosen people. I can't possibly see how Islam can be any worse. |
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foreverinchina
PopStar
Joined: Nov 21, 2005
Posts: 1253
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| Posted:
May 02, 2007 - 12:11 AM |
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| jacobbarnes wrote: |
"Public goods like education and social security can be offered more efficiently in an small homogenous country."
I don't really see why, but I doubt ..... |
Because of the "civic glue"
This civic “glue” is a critical precondition to economic prosperity. It is making the organisation of a social security system much more efficient. Simply because people feel themselves together, one group, no distance between the state and the citizens. No need for corruption or cheating, because of the stong desire to help and support each other. Compare it with an extended family or a tribe.
James Buchanan wrote his Public Choice-theory in 1986. If you apply his economic models on political situations, you will get the same conclusion.
In other words: Inevitable, there will be more corruption in a big artificial (non-homogeneous) country than in a small homogeneous country. |
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To govern a big country is like cooking a small fish.
Stir as little as possible.
- Lao Zi, Daode Jing 256 BC |
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jacobbarnes
Barker
Joined: Dec 14, 2006
Posts: 127
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May 02, 2007 - 12:45 AM |
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Do you think the U.S. is significantly more corupt or inefficient than France?
Switzerland is probably more efficient than both and has 4 official languages--the glue is civic values.
Or is the difference that Switzerland has less Muslims?
Greece, Italy and Spain are all relatively more homogenous and have strong bonds of common language, religion and ethnicity amongst most of its citizens but are less efficient and possibly in some cases more corupt.
Besides, nationlism and nationality are a recent invention (see, the 19th century), nationhood is just as illusory whether based on race, language, religion or civic values. Look how easily it has been recently redefined in Yugoslavia. Villagers who were atheist or agnositc socialists suddenly redscovered their Serbness, or Croatness or becam devout Muslims out of nowhere in the years after Milosovic gave his infamous speach about a battle that occured in 1589!
Do you think Serbs really cared about the field of the Blackbirds until Milosevic saw communism was on teh way out and became an ultra-nationalist? The purpose of national myth is to manipulate people to create an enemy to blame problems on.
Incidentally you were around for the 80's and 90's? You did see how good Christian Serbs and Croats murderred each other en masse, and then theSerbs turned to slaughtering Muslim men in Bosnia and Kosova? Yeah I can see why you think Islam is such a sub-par religion compared to peaceful Christianity.
Very few things are inevitable. |
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foreverinchina
PopStar
Joined: Nov 21, 2005
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| Posted:
May 02, 2007 - 05:34 PM |
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| jacobbarnes wrote: |
| .... nationhood is just as illusory whether based on race, language, religion or civic values. Look how easily .... |
The examples you mention rather support my thesis than yours, did you noticed that ?
So you clearly disagree with Prof. Alesina and Spolaore ?
Also Nobel prize winner James Buchanan you do not believe.
And you think Sir Karl Popper (The Open Society and its Enemies) was also wrong i suppose ?
What about Samuel Huntington's Clash of Civilisations ? Is he wrong too ?
I think national-socialism, real communism, socialism or even the idea that a state should try to influence the way of life of its citizens are the most despicable political ideas one can have.
And look how well islam fits in that list: that's also such a doctrine, guiding people towards "eternal happiness".
They all finally cause suppression, violence and war.
Then, why the other, real religions do not fit in that list? Because they lost their grip on their members.
Freedom and real democracy, that's what people want.
Dump the old leftist 1968 ideas. |
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To govern a big country is like cooking a small fish.
Stir as little as possible.
- Lao Zi, Daode Jing 256 BC |
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foreverinchina
PopStar
Joined: Nov 21, 2005
Posts: 1253
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| Posted:
May 02, 2007 - 07:22 PM |
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| jacobbarnes wrote: |
..France.. Switzerland .... Greece, Italy and Spain ... Yugoslavia. Serbness, or Croatness ...
Do you think Serbs really cared about ...... |
You seems to know Europe very well.
And all the wars in former Yougoslavia.
Then you for sure will will agree with this:
The Result of European Unification Will be War
http://www.brusselsjournal.com:80/node/2104
How will you prevent it ? |
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To govern a big country is like cooking a small fish.
Stir as little as possible.
- Lao Zi, Daode Jing 256 BC |
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jacobbarnes
Barker
Joined: Dec 14, 2006
Posts: 127
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May 02, 2007 - 11:24 PM |
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fic I wasn't even born in '68, and I'm an American so I can't be a socialist--we don't have them;).
I don't know what I think about the theories cited because I have not read their work. I think we are looking at this from different perspectives.
To me it is almost always a bad idea to base your national myth on race, religion or language. Yes it is helpful to have a common language, but too much emphasis on these concepts seems to put the focus on who is excluded and why they are bad. I come form a country of immigrants where the important thing is that we all understand and believe in the Constitution (or at least that is how it is supposed to work).
All Americnas stray from this ideal, but it is the ideal and it is better and more workable to me than American=Christian, white, British descent. Despite a somewhat hostile environmnent, Muslims are part of many American communities and they have integrated, just like the supposedly unassimalable hordes of Irish, Italians, Poles, Sikhs, Vietnamese, Mexicans, Africans, etc. who have proceeded them.
I think there are real and significant differences between socialism like in Sweden or France, and fascism, communism and other forms of totalitarianism. Europe was socialist before the EU, and without a European army or security forces answerable only to Brussels, I don't see how this buearacracy can be turned into an instrument of repression that approaches totalitarianism.
Your taxes may go up, and you may have to deal with some additional regulations, but totalitarianism I just don't see in the future. I think you will see increased quasi-federalism, but Europe is a long way from a pan-European super-state.
I think there are some totalitarian strains of Islam, and it does require more of a real comitment from its members, but I don't think that muslims are incapable of secular democracy. In Turkey they are protesting in the streets to prevent the rise of political Islam and preserve a secular Turkey. Before the overthrow of th Baathists they were a secular nationalist party and christian and women had equal rights. The p.l.o. was originally a secular leftist group. Students and youth in general in Iran are generally pro-western, pro-american and want a modern outward looking Iran.
The conversation about how to reconcile Islam with democracy is already going on, and saber rattling only make it more difficult for secularists to assert their voices in these countries.
I stand by my assertion that all three religions are useless. |
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Borodino
Reacher
Joined: Jan 03, 2007
Posts: 316
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| Posted:
May 03, 2007 - 02:14 PM |
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Absolute, copper-bottomed, AA-grade, FIC nonsense.
I see, FIC, our resident hate monkey, is launching another profoundly misinformed attack on -- what is it this time? It's never Islam again! Jeez. Learn a new tune.
Listen chaps. He knows nothing whatsoever about Islam. The depth of his ignorance is truly stunning. He suspects that Muslims have beards and that they like to blow things up. That's where it ends. He ain't read the Koran; he ain't met any Muslims. He's just jumping up and down and spoling for a fight. 100 years ago, he'd have been railing against Papists. 300 years ago, he'd have been burning his grandmother for heresy.
To cite Karl Popper -- of all people -- in support of this right-wing nutjuice is absolutely frickin unbelievable. But then, he ain't read that, either. |
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klown256
Seeker
Joined: Apr 26, 2007
Posts: 42
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May 03, 2007 - 03:16 PM |
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FIC started this post talking about a totalitarian European super state and devolved rather quickly into an anti Islamic rant....
Europe is not totalitarian... the current inter race/religious tension has its roots with a small number of bigoted hate mongers (anti semetics and so forth)... Historically there has always been religious tension in Europe (going as far back as 50 BC when rome decided to enforce it's will and gods over the goth's visigoths and gauls)... That is no reason to suppose that any clamp down on ethnic tension will devolve the EU into totalitarianism. If fact, it is because of these periods of tension that the European community become more cohesive in the longrun.
FIC - are you a xenophobe or just religiously intolerant? |
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Global Health Insurance China Health Insurance |
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foreverinchina
PopStar
Joined: Nov 21, 2005
Posts: 1253
Location: 徐家汇
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May 03, 2007 - 05:43 PM |
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i do not hate muslims more than you hate your own president. |
_________________
To govern a big country is like cooking a small fish.
Stir as little as possible.
- Lao Zi, Daode Jing 256 BC |
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foreverinchina
PopStar
Joined: Nov 21, 2005
Posts: 1253
Location: 徐家汇
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| Posted:
May 03, 2007 - 09:43 PM |
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foreverinchina
PopStar
Joined: Nov 21, 2005
Posts: 1253
Location: 徐家汇
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| Posted:
May 03, 2007 - 09:49 PM |
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| Borodino wrote: |
| I see, FIC, our ... |
Except from a long list with ad-hominems, what else do you contribute to this thread ?
Do you have anything to say about the issue we are talking about ?
Thank you. |
_________________
To govern a big country is like cooking a small fish.
Stir as little as possible.
- Lao Zi, Daode Jing 256 BC |
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Borodino
Reacher
Joined: Jan 03, 2007
Posts: 316
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May 04, 2007 - 11:20 AM |
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You have a very short memory, FIC. You've already been bulldozed over these "points" of yours in previous threads -- which, inexplicably, you seem to have forgotten all about. So the point at issue now is not whether you're right or wrong -- since you so obviously are wrong. The point at issue is why anyone should bother listening to you.
Ad hominem is when I substitute personal attacks for logical, reasoned argument. This is not ad hom. This is a logically derived syllogism:
1. Only idiots make broad generalisations based on insufficient evidence.
2. You make broad generalisations based on insufficient evidence.
3. Therefore you're an idiot.
And hence,
1. It's a waste of time reasoning with idiots.
2. You're an idiot.
3. It's a waste of time reasoning with you.
Care to fault my logic? |
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foreverinchina
PopStar
Joined: Nov 21, 2005
Posts: 1253
Location: 徐家汇
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| Posted:
May 04, 2007 - 04:31 PM |
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| Borodino wrote: |
| So the point at issue now is ... ... my logic |
Sure... your logic... Whether you like me or not: what's your contribution to this thread ?
Do you have anything to say about the issue we are talking about ?
Thank you. |
_________________
To govern a big country is like cooking a small fish.
Stir as little as possible.
- Lao Zi, Daode Jing 256 BC |
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