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ewillert
Squeeker
Joined: May 20, 2007
Posts: 12
Status: Offline
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July 25, 2007 - 10:47 AM |
 
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| Post subject: Legal issues for employing an Ayi |
Just employeed a Wonderful Philipino part time Ayi through an agency. We have her working 20 hours a week right now but am considering having her work full time. She did provide us with a passport and medical exam from last year. My concern is that the passport name and information is hand written on her passport. Is this normal of some passports? The US passports are all typed information. If she has a passport does this mean she is legal to work for us? I do not know all the proceedures and documents she needs to work for us. I do not want to get deported. What exactly do I need to make sure she is legal ie.. visa, work permit, residency permit etc.
Thanks
Erica |
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yu888
Board Deity
Joined: Jan 25, 2003
Posts: 17973
Location: ZhongShanParkArea SH
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July 25, 2007 - 03:53 PM |
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horsemandk
StreetBeater
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
Posts: 2241
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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July 26, 2007 - 12:11 AM |
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Do you pay the salary to the Ayi or are you paying the agency?
First one is a no-no today - second one is the perfect one.
You can hire ayi's from the Philippines now if you sponsor their visa, which costs 500,- USD every 6 months (new rule) A Chinese full time ayi need a valid contract from an employer and that doesn't mean you, but a real company with a business license. I heard from a friend of mine working for the local government that they're preparing to make more spot checks in the future to stop this thing. The only problem is that most expats don't know about these issues. If you're caught with an "illegal" ayi you'll get deported within 24 hours. |
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Those parts of the system that you can hit with a hammer (not advised) are called hardware; those program instructions that you can only curse at are called software. |
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underh20
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 9647
Location: EOA Seminar
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July 26, 2007 - 06:53 PM |
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| horsemandk wrote: |
| A Chinese full time ayi need a valid contract from an employer and that doesn't mean you, but a real company with a business license. I heard from a friend of mine working for the local government that they're preparing to make more spot checks in the future to stop this thing. The only problem is that most expats don't know about these issues. If you're caught with an "illegal" ayi you'll get deported within 24 hours. |
Bull$hit. Pure bull$hit.
I dare you to prove any foreigner was deported because they have employed a Chinese aiyi without having an employment contract. |
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Last edited by underh20 on July 26, 2007 - 10:06 PM; edited 1 time in total |
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itadmin
Lurker
Joined: Sep 15, 2006
Posts: 21
Status: Offline
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July 26, 2007 - 09:32 PM |
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Actually he does not have to, our GM was deported with a 24 hour notice!
He was caught in the so called spot check in the Thomson Villas compound last December. Now we have a new GM and he has an ayi through one of the legal agencies here of which I think there are 3.
Our CEO tried to negotiate with everybody from PSB all the way up to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, but there was nothing that could change the deportation. |
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underh20
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 9647
Location: EOA Seminar
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July 26, 2007 - 09:49 PM |
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| itadmin wrote: |
Actually he does not have to, our GM was deported with a 24 hour notice!
He was caught in the so called spot check in the Thomson Villas compound last December. Now we have a new GM and he has an ayi through one of the legal agencies here of which I think there are 3.
Our CEO tried to negotiate with everybody from PSB all the way up to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, but there was nothing that could change the deportation. |
For having hired a Chinese aiyi without a contract?
I don't believe you. You're either delusional or lying. |
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بارك الله ، بارك الله |
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underh20
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 9647
Location: EOA Seminar
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July 26, 2007 - 10:03 PM |
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| Post subject: Re: Legal issues for employing an Ayi |
| ewillert wrote: |
Just employeed a Wonderful Philipino part time Ayi through an agency. We have her working 20 hours a week right now but am considering having her work full time. She did provide us with a passport and medical exam from last year. My concern is that the passport name and information is hand written on her passport. Is this normal of some passports? The US passports are all typed information. If she has a passport does this mean she is legal to work for us? I do not know all the proceedures and documents she needs to work for us. I do not want to get deported. What exactly do I need to make sure she is legal ie.. visa, work permit, residency permit etc.
Thanks
Erica |
Like Yu mentioned, if she is provided by an agency, you should be safe. However, I'd make sure you have documentation that you are hiring her through an agency as if a problem arises you're probably the first one the authorities are going to be looking at.
She should have a residence permit stamped in her passport and a work permit. The medical exam independent of a valid work permit is worthless as far as showing she is legally able to work. |
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بارك الله ، بارك الله |
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itadmin
Lurker
Joined: Sep 15, 2006
Posts: 21
Status: Offline
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July 26, 2007 - 10:46 PM |
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What's wrong with you underh20, I've heard from others that you're quite stubborn, but I didn't believe it until now.
Yes, he and his family got deported for having a full time ayi without a legal contract!
Guessing from the way you're writing I'd say you're Chinese, no foreigner would call another foreigner delusional without being certain that this is based on facts. I even think that if you search the forum you're going to find more similar posts around this topic. |
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underh20
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 9647
Location: EOA Seminar
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July 26, 2007 - 10:52 PM |
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| itadmin wrote: |
What's wrong with you underh20, I've heard from others that you're quite stubborn, but I didn't believe it until now.
Yes, he and his family got deported for having a full time ayi without a legal contract!
Guessing from the way you're writing I'd say you're Chinese, no foreigner would call another foreigner delusional without being certain that this is based on facts. I even think that if you search the forum you're going to find more similar posts around this topic. |
The only posts on this issue with claims of hiring a Chinese aiyi come from Horseman and now you.
You are a liar. I actually called the Ministry of Public Security and they state that nobody is deported for hiring a Chinese aiyi without a contract. Nobody. In fact, even with the new labor law revisions, an actual contract is not mandatory for any Chinese worker. In recognition of this, the new labor regulations state that a person without a written contract is deemed to have a permanent contract.
Tomorrow I'll call the Shanghai Entry & Exit Administration and ask the same question. For the record, you do know that without involvement of the E & E Administration no deportation can be possibly carried out, right? I mean, just so you know that once they claim you are lying you have no room to try and bull$hit your way out. |
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بارك الله ، بارك الله |
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minyi
Lurker
Joined: Sep 15, 2006
Posts: 29
Status: Offline
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July 26, 2007 - 11:01 PM |
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I have worked for the local government in Shanghai for a while now and this topic was in the news last year. Several expatriates were deported last year and this year even more have been caught and deported due to similar issues. No expatriate can legally hire Chinese nor write a contract with a local Chinese, it all has to be through a Chinese registered agency or company. This is not limited to ayi's but also drivers etc. The biggest problem though is with full-time ayi's as they're always in the expatriates home and therefore have personal belongings there. Part-time ayi's usually don't pose a similar problem as it's more difficult to meet them during a spot check.
A new rule has been implemented that even the expatriates employer can't hire an ayi anymore and then have them work for the expatriate.
There are only 2 solutions to this problem:
1. Hire your ayi or driver through a legal agency, check this by asking for the original copy of their business license and check up on it as there are many fake ones out there
2. Have your landlord hire the ayi, again on a legal contract of which you have a copy to show the officers responsible for the spot check.
Do not argue with the officers as that's going to make matters worse. If you have problems call the agency or the landlord right away and let them talk to the officers.
If anybody want to call the EEA or MPS I'd like to know the name of the person you spoke to and or the officers employee designation(you can PM me but be advised I might ask the board administrators for log entry of your posts!) |
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itadmin
Lurker
Joined: Sep 15, 2006
Posts: 21
Status: Offline
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July 26, 2007 - 11:06 PM |
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itadmin
Lurker
Joined: Sep 15, 2006
Posts: 21
Status: Offline
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July 26, 2007 - 11:16 PM |
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AYSYN
Lurker
Joined: Nov 29, 2006
Posts: 37
Status: Offline
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July 27, 2007 - 08:00 AM |
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Aside from totally unrelated information to the issue at hand contained in the links posted by itadmin, I'll have to take issue with miniyi.
I phoned the Shanghai Public Security Bureau and the two people they referred me to in the section that deals exclusively with foreigners stated that "Of course you can hire any aiyi you like." I told them I feared problems with the PSB over my aiyi and even deportation and one of them laughed and the other stated I should relax and find something real to worry about.
I think this whole hiring a local aiyi scare is an old wives tale people like to throw around just to make themselves seem useful. |
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underh20
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 9647
Location: EOA Seminar
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July 27, 2007 - 08:16 AM |
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| minyi wrote: |
| No expatriate can legally hire Chinese nor write a contract with a local Chinese, it all has to be through a Chinese registered agency or company. This is not limited to ayi's but also drivers etc. |
Liar.
The days when no foreign company could legally hire Chinese people and had to go through fesco and the likes ended years ago.
Don't you even think before you make retarded claims? I mean, yeah, you have no concept of fact vs. imagination, but at least use common sense. Under your assinine theory, the foreigner who pays 50 RMB to a locksmith or a plumber, both of which are independent contractors and informal workers, is breaking the law and subject to deportation.
Don't you have a brain? |
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underh20
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 9647
Location: EOA Seminar
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July 27, 2007 - 08:30 AM |
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Is your literacy problem congenital? 
We are discussing the legalities and possibilities of deportation when expats hire a Chinese aiyi. Please have someone who is literate read the information contained in your Philippine Consulate General link and show us where it even comes close to mentioning this issue.
Regarding your link to ESL Teachers Board, I would be hardly call it an authoritative source, though in this instance I do believe what was written on this particular page to be completely accurate.
The problem, though, is this link also does not even remotely touch on the issue of expats who have hired Chinese domestic staff.
Or is this the best your four-hour Google search could come up with in support of your dubious claims?  |
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بارك الله ، بارك الله
Last edited by underh20 on July 27, 2007 - 09:44 AM; edited 2 times in total |
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mswp
Rocker
Joined: Mar 06, 2005
Posts: 724
Status: Offline
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July 27, 2007 - 09:02 AM |
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| underh20 wrote: |
| The only posts on this issue with claims of hiring a Chinese aiyi come from Horseman and now you. |
He's right. And Horseman's posts are frequently alarmist, and factually dubious. Deportations just don't work that way. Even when you are required to leave, you get some time to put your affairs in order.
Unless you've don't something really, really outrageous. Which hiring an illegal ayi is not. |
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underh20
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 9647
Location: EOA Seminar
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July 27, 2007 - 09:19 AM |
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^ Of course.
Itadmin's boss, though likely that he was deported, was probably kicked out for something like molesting little boys and made up the excuse of having hired an illegal Chinese aiyi to cover his tracks.
Oh, and by the way, deportations can only be carried out after approval from the Public Security Ministry and even then only by PSBs at county level or higher. |
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Fhili
Newbie
Joined: Aug 01, 2007
Posts: 2
Status: Offline
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Aug 01, 2007 - 09:33 AM |
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underh20: i appreciate your post replies. i think you can answer my questions straight.
1. what will be the visa intended for a filipino ayi who wants to employ in Mainland China?
(not from an employment agency, should i say, she's hired directly from an expat)
2. can you tell me that flow of the processing for a temprary resident permit or work permit, if ever?
thanks a lot.  |
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underh20
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 9647
Location: EOA Seminar
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Aug 01, 2007 - 09:37 AM |
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Unless there have been remarkable changes in the past two weeks, it is virtually impossible for a Filipino or Indonesian to get the necessary legal documentation to work on the Mainland as a domestic helper.
The process of obtaining the work permit / "Z" work visa & residence permit depends on several factors and I can only tell you with certainty what my company goes through when we hire expat staff. First, if the candidate is already in China, we have them take a medical examination and obtain their work permit. Once we have the medical exam results and the work permit in hand, we have the Public Security Bureau cancel the visa upon which the candidate originally entered China and issue them a residence permit for purposes of employment.
If the candidate is not in China at the time, we have to obtain a work permit for the individual and an authorization letter which is then sent to the candidate and, usually together with a brief medical examination, is used in their application for a "Z" visa. Once the person arrives in China with the work visa, we have them take a new medical examination and then get the PSB to issue the person a residence permit for purposes of employment. |
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oopsiedaisie
Talker
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 114
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Aug 01, 2007 - 06:23 PM |
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underh20 is absolutely right, Filipino amahs CANNOT legally work on the mainland thru an independent employer. I have a Filipino amah we brought with us from Hongkong, the bank my husband works for sort out her papers for her - she is employed by the bank and paid by the bank - she is actually paid what she would have been paid in HK - HK$4800 no more no less. |
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underh20
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 9647
Location: EOA Seminar
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Aug 02, 2007 - 12:00 AM |
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And even then many companies will not dare try to hire a foreign aiyi for their staff because no matter what excuse they give, it is illegal. If the foreign company or bank gets caught, they can expect serious problems. |
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Fhili
Newbie
Joined: Aug 01, 2007
Posts: 2
Status: Offline
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Aug 02, 2007 - 09:35 PM |
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oopsiedaisie:
yes thats what we are doing now. i hope my visa application will turn out well.
does she(ayi) possess F-visa right now? please tell me the flow of her visa processing please please. 
underh20: thanks for the advise |
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