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yinlin
Rocker
Joined: Feb 26, 2007
Posts: 643
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 Posted:
Aug 16, 2007 - 04:59 PM |
 
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| Post subject: R&D in China |
i am doing some research regarding to the important issues for r&d industry in china. DOE, Triz, QFD in DFSS are some key concerns and areas that r&d experts in europe/ us likes to improve in their r&d centres from my conversation with them. Yet, i have spoken to couple of r&d experts here in China and they seem not interest to know anything and it surprised me since there are so many r&d centres being set up here the last few years than SG/ Korea.
Not sure whether it was just not my day that they did not feel like to speak/ they did not understand fully my chinese or r&d centres here are only following the standard research procedures from their oversea hq (hard to call r&d centre in this case).
I appreciate you could get me some of your opinions if you are involved in new product development for your company.
P/s: Please forget abt IP issues in technology exchange, product portfolio, leadership, investment policy in China as i am more concern abt specific technical knowledge in the innovation of new product |
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Angie
LoopKicker
Joined: Feb 01, 2004
Posts: 848
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Aug 16, 2007 - 05:05 PM |
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Sorry, I'm an academic with a PhD and I'm still at loss with your use of abbreviations although I've done years of R&D in Europe.
I understand DOE - design of experiments (although it could also be Department of Energy)
QFD - could that be quality function deployment - related to 6Sigma - but what does it have to do with R&D? DFSS - ditto!
Would it be possible that none of the R&D engineers you interviewed understood your questions? |
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DesertSpider
Post Roaster
Joined: Jan 19, 2007
Posts: 4417
Location: SHANGHAI, CHINA
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Aug 16, 2007 - 06:25 PM |
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QFD is an APQP tool used in automotive industry...
What is the OP's question ? |
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TISM
SuperStar
Joined: July 14, 2005
Posts: 1561
Location: often @ the shed
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Aug 16, 2007 - 07:05 PM |
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R&D in china - oh you mean reverse engineering - yer tons of that in china |
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Witch_Pauline
Reacher
Joined: Sep 23, 2005
Posts: 305
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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Aug 16, 2007 - 07:55 PM |
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Good questions, perhaps too technical or specific for most of us here. I dont really run any R&D here, though we use to have a very small development team a few years back (5 people). Were we larger, I would have like to push for various improvement in methodologies etc. but I know my local colleagues had no understanding of them and my foreign board members were mainly concerned with low cost. You should ask the people you surveyed why they are not interested! |
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By Christ and the Cross! |
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CoffeeHawk_0
Board Buddha
Joined: July 14, 2005
Posts: 14444
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Aug 16, 2007 - 07:58 PM |
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^yeah, something named 'R&D center' in China can be just to have the 'impressive' name. It helps lure more people to the company for potential employment. There are, of course, more mainstream styled R&D centers here too.
"Quality" means cost, China is a low cost development and manufacturing area (medium cost actually). Quality will come as more people demand it, and prices will rise accordingly for products that can achieve it.
The processes (acronyms) the OP mentions are not for R&D, then are for manufacturing and engineering level work. Some aspects of these processes can be adapted to R&D level work, but that area of work is not the intended focus of these processes.
DOE - design of experiments
Triz - {had to google this one, never used it before} "TIPS" is the acronym for "Theory of Inventive Problem Solving," and "TRIZ" is the acronym for the same phrase in Russian.
QFD - quality function deployment, yet another data analysis/problem solving method
DFSS - design for sig-sigma, a statistical approach to problem solving
Others: DSS, TQM, 8D, FMEA,....... |
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Witch_Pauline
Reacher
Joined: Sep 23, 2005
Posts: 305
Location: Shanghai
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Aug 16, 2007 - 07:58 PM |
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If it can be useful - one of our big partners, a major Chinese software company, was struggling with basic issues like project management and version management. In fact they were not even struggling, they were unaware. I am talking about a very large company, leader in their field, about 4 years ago. Not sure what they are doing now, but perhaps most organizations have even not managed the basics yet? |
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By Christ and the Cross! |
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Witch_Pauline
Reacher
Joined: Sep 23, 2005
Posts: 305
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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Aug 16, 2007 - 07:59 PM |
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Triz was popular in mechanical R&D about 15 years ago. I studied this, a bit like joining a sect, though not as bad as 6-sigma of course. |
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By Christ and the Cross! |
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Witch_Pauline
Reacher
Joined: Sep 23, 2005
Posts: 305
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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Aug 16, 2007 - 08:00 PM |
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Its a methodology to help innovate. |
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By Christ and the Cross! |
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leidelaohu
Wonder Wit
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 3780
Status: Offline
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Aug 17, 2007 - 12:33 AM |
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| Witch_Pauline wrote: |
| Its a methodology to help innovate. |
Contradiction in terms  |
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yinlin
Rocker
Joined: Feb 26, 2007
Posts: 643
Status: Offline
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Aug 17, 2007 - 12:58 AM |
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| Angie wrote: |
Sorry, I'm an academic with a PhD and I'm still at loss with your use of abbreviations although I've done years of R&D in Europe.
I understand DOE - design of experiments (although it could also be Department of Energy)
QFD - could that be quality function deployment - related to 6Sigma - but what does it have to do with R&D? DFSS - ditto!
Would it be possible that none of the R&D engineers you interviewed understood your questions? |
DOE is design of experiments, and when you do google search and indeed the first result you may find is department of energy (pay credit to the dept paying google good money to list them the first of the lists in some keywords searching) but i was anticipating it should be enough for a r&d executives to know my questions.
DFSS-Design for Six Sigma 六西格玛设计 is used to design or redesign a product or service from the gound up. Like its parent Six Sigma, DFSS uses a desciplined set of tools to bring high quality to product launches. In the simplest way of differentiating 6sigma and DFSS, 6sigma is used to improve existing processes/ products and DFSS is used in new product or process or the existing products can no longer be improved.
QFD, yes, it is related to 6sigma. and the first phase of QFD (the most important phase)- product planning will be based on VOC (voice of customer) translate into the corresponding control character or design requirements.
If you are doubtful about what i said or you would like to know what is the link between six sigma/ DFSS with R&D, here are some useful links fyi
http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-2566816/How-Six-Sigma-improves -R.html
A workshop conducted in USA (six sigma and DFSS in R&D)
http://www.iriinc.org/Content/NavigationMenu/Collaboration_and_Researc h/Professional_Education_Programs/Six_Sigma_Workshop/Six_Sigma_2007.ht m
i still have a lot of information in hardcopy from EUROPE/ US regarding to my posted question but again i need more info from Asia particulary China. I guess you have transfered from your original R&D job post to higher management decision and lost track of the trend.
I admit my knowledge is so little compare to the experts out there, that is why i put my faith (i might hope today is my lucky day) here and hope someone could pass me smth useful.
so far, you are the first r&d expert to ask me those abbreviations and thanks to you i will prepare to translate those terms into chinese before i meet some engineers and r&d executives tomorrow. |
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yinlin
Rocker
Joined: Feb 26, 2007
Posts: 643
Status: Offline
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Aug 17, 2007 - 01:05 AM |
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| Witch_Pauline wrote: |
| Good questions, perhaps too technical or specific for most of us here. I dont really run any R&D here, though we use to have a very small development team a few years back (5 people). Were we larger, I would have like to push for various improvement in methodologies etc. but I know my local colleagues had no understanding of them and my foreign board members were mainly concerned with low cost. You should ask the people you surveyed why they are not interested! |
thank you. They are keen to learn about more knowledge in R&D but maybe they had not enough time to figure it out their priority when i was introduced to speak to them, and quite shameful that i spoke half english and chinese in the conversation as i did not know how to translate some technical terms into chinese. based on my understand, foreign investors are more concern abt IP issues in technology exchange with their chinese partners nowadays. More and more conferences and training related to R&D being held in China the past two years as a result of local government encouragement in high-tech industry. |
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rxg
Raver
Joined: Sep 06, 2005
Posts: 457
Status: Offline
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Aug 17, 2007 - 01:05 AM |
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I am incharged of R&D for Asia-Pac for a fortune 500 company in the US. We make Chemical. One of my biggest challeges is retaining people after I trained them on how to do DOE, Six Sigma, formulation etc... Many master graduate students, pure academia do not know how to write a technical report on the project they work on. They do not know how to write report responding to customer's complains.
Many are followers - not innovator. AND in R &D we need innovators!!
In addition, to find good tech people in China is not cheap. The work force in China were born in the 80s. I am lucky if I find a few who were born in the 70's. But these are the ones who think they could be manager (though they do not know how to manage people or projects). Or they think they are the best China has to offer alread b/c they have a few years of experience.
Many foreign companies I know want to start R&D in China, but talent people i hard to find and retain. I also worry about them staeling formulas once they leave the company. Very few working for a company more than 2-3 years. In R & D, some projects takes more than 3 years to commercialize!
This has been my experience - and I am continuing to fight thru these issues. |
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yinlin
Rocker
Joined: Feb 26, 2007
Posts: 643
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Aug 17, 2007 - 01:27 AM |
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| CoffeeHawk_0 wrote: |
^yeah, something named 'R&D center' in China can be just to have the 'impressive' name. It helps lure more people to the company for potential employment. There are, of course, more mainstream styled R&D centers here too.
"Quality" means cost, China is a low cost development and manufacturing area (medium cost actually). Quality will come as more people demand it, and prices will rise accordingly for products that can achieve it.
The processes (acronyms) the OP mentions are not for R&D, then are for manufacturing and engineering level work. Some aspects of these processes can be adapted to R&D level work, but that area of work is not the intended focus of these processes.
DOE - design of experiments
Triz - {had to google this one, never used it before} "TIPS" is the acronym for "Theory of Inventive Problem Solving," and "TRIZ" is the acronym for the same phrase in Russian.
QFD - quality function deployment, yet another data analysis/problem solving method
DFSS - design for sig-sigma, a statistical approach to problem solving
Others: DSS, TQM, 8D, FMEA,....... |
there are many levels in R&D, you can set up an after-sale office to take care of your customers' needs and claim that a R&D centre to enjoy more tax benefits (ain't sure whether it still could work now in China, and this was briefed to me by an expert 2 years back when i was stationed in Malaysia).
I don't understand this sentence "the area of work is not the intended purpose of these processes". When you mention six sigma, the initial main purpose is to rectify defect in manufacturing industry but now you can see 6sigma in almost every function in a company, thus it becomes more like a management method generally used to cut down failures like 6sigma in HR, 6sigma in financial services, 6sigma in sales and marketing, 6sigma in teaching our kids to be well behaved. Of course, i would have to highlight again my job requires me to study the data and information and i have no heck of practical experience in conducting these theories in any organization.
thanks to your short explanation of those technical terms.
p.s: Triz is actually a quite new concept in China and a professor introduced this concept in PRC in 1998, many r&d experts are still reluctant to try this concept as they think their products are not that complicated yet to require this level of innovation (i don't understand what they mean too, i just directly translated from chinese to english) and they think it is very time consuming to learn this concept (some says it takes up like a year). |
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yinlin
Rocker
Joined: Feb 26, 2007
Posts: 643
Status: Offline
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Aug 17, 2007 - 01:31 AM |
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| Witch_Pauline wrote: |
| Triz was popular in mechanical R&D about 15 years ago. I studied this, a bit like joining a sect, though not as bad as 6-sigma of course. |
i guess you should not be from China as it is still quite new to a lot of organizations in China but maybe the reasons they refuse to accept this.
From the video conferences i bought from internet regarding to this topic, the delegates were very excited when the trainer raised out some interesting case studies in US. |
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leidelaohu
Wonder Wit
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 3780
Status: Offline
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Aug 17, 2007 - 01:31 AM |
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| yinlin wrote: |
| DOE is .... |
Ya know, if you really wanted to accomplish something you'd toss every one of these worthless acronyms as far as the nearest toilet and buy a case of Eliyahu Goldratt's The Goal for your managers. This fascination with cookbook answers is one of the reasons that Chinese engineers and managers can't think. |
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yinlin
Rocker
Joined: Feb 26, 2007
Posts: 643
Status: Offline
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Aug 17, 2007 - 01:46 AM |
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| rxg wrote: |
I am incharged of R&D for Asia-Pac for a fortune 500 company in the US. We make Chemical. One of my biggest challeges is retaining people after I trained them on how to do DOE, Six Sigma, formulation etc... Many master graduate students, pure academia do not know how to write a technical report on the project they work on. They do not know how to write report responding to customer's complains.
Many are followers - not innovator. AND in R &D we need innovators!!
In addition, to find good tech people in China is not cheap. The work force in China were born in the 80s. I am lucky if I find a few who were born in the 70's. But these are the ones who think they could be manager (though they do not know how to manage people or projects). Or they think they are the best China has to offer alread b/c they have a few years of experience.
Many foreign companies I know want to start R&D in China, but talent people i hard to find and retain. I also worry about them staeling formulas once they leave the company. Very few working for a company more than 2-3 years. In R & D, some projects takes more than 3 years to commercialize!
This has been my experience - and I am continuing to fight thru these issues. |
Thanks for your response. Indeed, this is one of the most frequest barriers that mnc have faced in China (cos most of my clients are mnc in china so most of my surveys are more towarding to their needs). I trust many of you are facing the talent issues here especially in finance, retail, high tech industry (auto, heavy machinery, telco, and etc).
This time my projects will be inclining more on technical focus, can i ask which areas in those technical processes you think your corporate has to strenghten or improve? (QFD, LPD, DFMA, Triz, and etc)
actually i knew there are quite a few of Chinese american in Shanghai are leading their r&d teams in China/ Asia pacific, so i was hopeful they would read my thread and give me some ideas like you do.
Thanks again and good night! |
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yinlin
Rocker
Joined: Feb 26, 2007
Posts: 643
Status: Offline
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Aug 17, 2007 - 01:56 AM |
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| leidelaohu wrote: |
| yinlin wrote: |
| DOE is .... |
Ya know, if you really wanted to accomplish something you'd toss every one of these worthless acronyms as far as the nearest toilet and buy a case of Eliyahu Goldratt's The Goal for your managers. This fascination with cookbook answers is one of the reasons that Chinese engineers and managers can't think. |
of course, i would have tried my best to lead them getting the answer i want instead of throwing these meaningless acronyms to them. my tactic always works quite well but this time they are just not able to tell me more for what i need to know, not sure whether they are not eloquent to speak due to their job nature or i am being stupid on how to probing this time.
toilet paper, serviette, diaper, sanitary paper, feminine hygiene, printing paper- which one is the most useful in our daily life?  |
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DesertSpider
Post Roaster
Joined: Jan 19, 2007
Posts: 4417
Location: SHANGHAI, CHINA
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Aug 17, 2007 - 09:43 AM |
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^ With this level of inexperience / lack of knowledge which industries are hiring you to consult to them ? The ones with the best guanxi ? |
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GWHunter
Squeeker
Joined: Apr 28, 2007
Posts: 14
Status: Offline
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Aug 17, 2007 - 10:06 AM |
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Hello. I have an 6years B.Sc M.Sc in Knowledge Management, with a specialization in research management.
In my honest opinnion you are way of the base.... Could you reformulate the questions as currently you are inquiring: "some of your opinions if you are involved in new product development for your company".
What would you like to know, exactly?
If the question is whether we use QFD, I think you might want to think and redesign your study. QFD is used in making the spec for the new product and translating market needs to matrix in a form readable by the design / research engineer. It is far more important in applied level r&d (design) than in scientific r&d (research). |
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DesertSpider
Post Roaster
Joined: Jan 19, 2007
Posts: 4417
Location: SHANGHAI, CHINA
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Aug 17, 2007 - 10:25 AM |
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| GWHunter wrote: |
Hello. I have an 6years B.Sc M.Sc in Knowledge Management, with a specialization in research management.
In my honest opinnion you are way off base.... Could you reformulate the questions as currently you are inquiring: "some of your opinions if you are involved in new product development for your company".
What would you like to know, exactly?
If the question is whether we use QFD, I think you might want to think and redesign your study. QFD is used in making the spec for the new product and translating market needs to matrix in a form readable by the design / research engineer. It is far more important in applied level r&d (design) than in scientific r&d (research). |
^ I have just shy of 15 years of R&D experience, mgmt, etc. and also second everything said in this post. |
_________________
| wrote: |
| I'm looking good, got a luscious v of hair going through my chest pubes down to my ball fro. |
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Angie
LoopKicker
Joined: Feb 01, 2004
Posts: 848
Status: Offline
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Aug 17, 2007 - 11:56 AM |
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| GWHunter wrote: |
If the question is whether we use QFD, I think you might want to think and redesign your study. QFD is used in making the spec for the new product and translating market needs to matrix in a form readable by the design / research engineer. It is far more important in applied level r&d (design) than in scientific r&d (research). |
exactly my point, thanks! |
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yinlin
Rocker
Joined: Feb 26, 2007
Posts: 643
Status: Offline
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Aug 17, 2007 - 04:31 PM |
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| GWHunter wrote: |
Hello. I have an 6years B.Sc M.Sc in Knowledge Management, with a specialization in research management.
In my honest opinnion you are way of the base.... Could you reformulate the questions as currently you are inquiring: "some of your opinions if you are involved in new product development for your company".
What would you like to know, exactly?
If the question is whether we use QFD, I think you might want to think and redesign your study. QFD is used in making the spec for the new product and translating market needs to matrix in a form readable by the design / research engineer. It is far more important in applied level r&d (design) than in scientific r&d (research). |
Agree!
Let me re-structure my questions in a more appropriate manner and understandable to everyone here:
These are the questions for: engineering and R&D executives, project leaders, designers, researches, engineering consultants, inventors
1) Do you apply 6sigma/ design for 6sigma (DFSS) in your R&D centre?
2) Does your R&D centre apply Quality Function Deployment (QFD), DOE (Design of Experiment), Triz, Taguchi Method to your product life cycle? And which of these you reckon has to be strengthened/ added to your NPD process to stay competitive?
3) How do you score the success of your 6sigma/ DFSS program effectiveness (if you do implement the concept) and benchmark to your competitors? -knowledge generated (max explicit vs tacit knowledge), product developed(effective conversion of VOC), cycle time
4) After assesing your strength and weaknesses in your NPD, how you normally implement a gap analysis and improvement plan? Do you directly get help from your headquarter or seeking consultation or attending conferences related to your problems?
In China, R&D represents the latest of four phases in foreign high-tech investment
Phase I: Sales, Marketing, Licensing, and Technical Services Support.
Phase II: Manufacturing and Production.
Phase III: Product Design, “Localization,” and Redevelopment. This activity often benefits from collaboration with Chinese engineers and others who can help to more quickly adapt foreign technology and products to local market conditions.
Phase IV: R&D
Which level your R&D is in?
Thanks to your attention and time to answer. |
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yinlin
Rocker
Joined: Feb 26, 2007
Posts: 643
Status: Offline
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Aug 17, 2007 - 04:35 PM |
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| DesertSpider wrote: |
| ^ With this level of inexperience / lack of knowledge which industries are hiring you to consult to them ? The ones with the best guanxi ? |
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DesertSpider
Post Roaster
Joined: Jan 19, 2007
Posts: 4417
Location: SHANGHAI, CHINA
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Aug 17, 2007 - 04:38 PM |
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| yinlin wrote: |
Agree!
Let me re-structure my questions in a more appropriate manner and understandable to everyone here:
These are the questions for: engineering and R&D executives, project leaders, designers, researches, engineering consultants, inventors
1) Do you apply 6sigma/ design for 6sigma (DFSS) in your R&D center? |
YES
| yinlin wrote: |
| 2) Does your R&D center apply Quality Function Deployment (QFD), DOE (Design of Experiment), Triz, Taguchi Method to your product life cycle? And which of these you reckon has to be strengthened/ added to your NPD process to stay competitive? |
YES, VARIANTS OF ALL THREE
| yinlin wrote: |
| 3) How do you score the success of your 6sigma/ DFSS program effectiveness (if you do implement the concept) and benchmark to your competitors? -knowledge generated (max explicit vs tacit knowledge), product developed(effective conversion of VOC), cycle time |
10 / 10 : WE'RE INDUSTRY LEADERS WITH THE MAJORITY MARKET SHARE
| yinlin wrote: |
| 4) After assessing your strength and weaknesses in your NPD, how you normally implement a gap analysis and improvement plan? Do you directly get help from your headquarter or seeking consultation or attending conferences related to your problems? |
BOTH - HQ & CONSULTANTS
| yinlin wrote: |
In China, R&D represents the latest of four phases in foreign high-tech investment
Phase I: Sales, Marketing, Licensing, and Technical Services Support.
Phase II: Manufacturing and Production.
Phase III: Product Design, “Localization,” and Redevelopment. This activity often benefits from collaboration with Chinese engineers and others who can help to more quickly adapt foreign technology and products to local market conditions.
Phase IV: R&D
Which level your R&D is in? |
R&D ALWAYS PRECEEDS MANUFACTURING
| yinlin wrote: |
| Thanks to your attention and time to answer. |
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_________________
| wrote: |
| I'm looking good, got a luscious v of hair going through my chest pubes down to my ball fro. |
Last edited by DesertSpider on Aug 20, 2007 - 10:14 PM; edited 1 time in total |
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