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Borodino
Reacher
Joined: Jan 03, 2007
Posts: 316
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 Posted:
Aug 22, 2007 - 07:01 AM |
 
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^
Yeah, balanced powers keeping each other in check. That always works. (To quote Richard Curtis, "The competing blocs are each so powerful and well-armed that it would be complete madness to go to war. There's one small problem with this plan: It's complete bollocks.")
I don't buy it. I don't buy the idea that Putin derives any kind of legitimacy by acting as a foil to the imperial daydreams of George Bush. I resent the notion that I have to -- or that anyone has to -- choose between these evils. And if I were to choose between these evils, I'd rather be a dissident writer in Washington any day of the week. And so would you, if you're honest.
A stable Russia? Stability and security -- the siren song of every thug and crook who's ever risen to power. And a lethal illusion, the kind bought into by revanchist grannies. You ought to get yourself a portrait of Stalin, hc, and sit with it outside the Moscow underground telling everyone what a strongman he was. Because that's the line, isn't it, that all these problems would go away if we only had someone sufficiently ruthless in charge. There won't be much room for criminality, will there, when the state has claimed a complete monopoly on it, and all the crooks are wearing uniform.
You've heard the story, I'm sure, of the two writers during the Moscow Terror. Both intelligent men, educated men. One turns to the other and says, "If only someone would tell comrade Stalin about this." A story about the infinite sadness of political stupidity.
Stable? You've got to be kidding. In what sense is Russia stable? You've heard, I presume, of the Russian Cross -- the demographic term as opposed to the ecclesiastical one? Russia is about as stable as a naked man in church with a Kalashnikov, and Putin's nationalist w@nk fantasies are not a solution to its decay; they are the symptom of it. All these flexing muscles and Czarist nostalgies are expressions of the anarchy and chaos of Russian life; they are compensatory fantasies -- the lurches and spasms of a sick man; they are evidence of the disintegration of the rule of law, of any real cohesion or order in public life. And most vitally, they serve the interests of no-one but the powerful. Stable societies don't need to kill journalists.
Putin is lethal. You have to imagine the mindset of a man who calculatedly sets about killing and imprisoning his opponents. Stable? P1ss off. He's a strongman. You know where strongmen thrive? The jungle. The circus. |
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shanghaiceltic
Board Royalty
Joined: Sep 20, 2005
Posts: 7618
Location: Perth WA
Status: Offline
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Aug 22, 2007 - 07:57 AM |
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Putin has already threatened and carried out non military attacks on its neighbours who decided they no longer wanted to be part of the Russian Federation. Is that stability?
If he really wants to make a mark and show the country as a power then he should be working with Europe to prevent the escalation we are seeing in the Middle East.
But he wont. He also uses the Russian Orthodox Church to fuel up nationalism and attack other religons and countries that hold those beliefs. |
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I have parrallel bars at home, one for gin and one for whiskey |
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hc
Post Roaster
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 4545
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Aug 22, 2007 - 09:50 AM |
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"prevent the escalation we are seeing in the Middle East. "
You gotta be fkng kidding me.
We only have a situation there today because of the UK my friend. It dates back to the beginning of the century.
Now that you guys completely fuked it up ROYALLY Russia should "help to sort things out"? That's a joke if there was ever one.
I dont know how you were raised, but I was raised in the following terms: you break things up you go fkng fix them, there is no daddy to clean up your mess!
Now, as for Putin, comparing him to Stalin is a bit obtuse to say the least. A grotesque over simplification to convince simple minds that he is a great danger.
I bet you pull the Mao card in any discussion related to China when you want to "win" it (which by itself is an idiot concept), even though Mao was the only guy that was
actively pursuing a solution to the embroglio of the thousands of years the culture caused in the thought process.
Ok, let's say balanced powers DONT keep each other in check. We end up like a world like we have today isnt it?
Let's see what this great world gave us:
1)Much more war and instability than we had in the Cold War
2)A superpower and its puppet states pillaging whomever they want (Iraq anyone?)
3)Massive violations of oh, the topic you all love to burp about: human rights
4)
You are assuming that Putins actions in foreign policy are preemptive. They arent, they are a REACTION to the expanding NATO, they are a reaction to the missile shield, they are a reaction to the pillaging of smaller countries by the UK and the US,
just like terrorism is a REACTION to years of f*** ups in the Middle East, starting with Britain in Israel and topped by the Shah in Iran (who was transplanted by the US and was a butcher much more than Putin).
So, instead of looking at Putin and comparing him to Stalin (EFFECT) look at the CAUSE of the situation we have today.
You will vomit in your mouth when you do this exercise.
So easy to thin slice specific actions and ignore all the context. That's what the smart media do to convince stupid people of whatever it wants. |
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wolfy
Fire-eater
Joined: Sep 13, 2004
Posts: 2510
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Aug 22, 2007 - 11:32 AM |
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Putin critic tells of her mental hospital ordeal
By Alastair Gee in Moscow
Published: 22 August 2007
Larisa Arap has just emerged from a 46-day imprisonment in two Russian psychiatric hospitals. Pills were forced down her throat and she received injection after injection. She doesn't know what medications they were, or whether they will cause permanent damage.
"I don't feel very well, but I have a fighting spirit," Mrs Arap said yesterday, adding that sometimes she was so drugged she could barely walk or speak
She was forcibly interned, not for health reasons, but over her association with the opposition group led by former chess star Garry Kasparov, the United Civil Front. Her arrest stemmed from the publication of an article entitled "Madhouse," exposing the ghoulish practices of a Russian psychiatric hospital in the Murmansk edition of his organisation's newspaper, Dissenters' March.
She was interned in the very hospital she had written about. "We're ready to take this to court, although the medics have made it clear that we'll lose," she said.
Russian activists say her ordeal confirms what they've argued for years: punitive psychiatry did not end with the Soviet Union. Now, critics suggest, if someone has a grudge - a husband, a business partner, even a psychiatrist - it isn't difficult to get them confined to a padded room.
In recent years, Mrs Arap had been looking after the child of her daughter, Taisiya, in her home town of Murmansk, north of the Arctic Circle. Problems first arose in 2003, when she uncovered corruption in her local housing association, as she reported in "Madhouse." She was then attacked in her building, mystery callers threatened to murder her, and finally she was warned by the FSB, the KGB's successor, to keep quiet. She didn't.
Taken to a mental ward, Mrs Arap noted that many of its occupants seemed perfectly sane. "I was surprised that among them were lots of normal people," she wrote in "Madhouse". "But how they [staff] communicated with them: They shouted, they beat them up, they put them on drips, after which people became like zombies, they raped them, carried them off in the night and returned them in the morning, tormented."
One woman was threatened with the removal of organs, Mrs Arap said. Children were told that if they didn't give massages to medics they'd receive electro-shock therapy.
Mrs Arap was freed, but on 5 July, she was restrained at a clinic after stopping for documentation needed to obtain a drivers' license. Her doctor asked if she had written "Madhouse," and when she confirmed, police escorted her to a Murmansk mental hospital.
Taisiya said that when she was first arrested, Mrs Arap was beaten, and went on a 5-day hunger strike in prοtest, consuming nothing but water and smoking cigarettes.
It was only on 18 July that a court sanctioned her hospitalisation; until then, she had been detained illegally. Mrs Arap was moved to a hospital near Apatity, 180 miles from Murmansk, "without her agreement or the agreement of her relatives," Taisiya said.
It was "a closed hospital from which people rarely return. ... No positive feelings arise in this hospital. It's a psychological hospital for the difficult, the dangerous, the abandoned."
Mrs Arap was eventually released when a commission, initiated by Russia's human rights ombudsman, Vladimir Lukin, said there was no reason for her to be hospitalised.
She is due in court today to prοtest her treatment, and the United Civil Front plans to prosecute everyone involved, although a representative admitted the group has little chance of winning.
"We were never told anything concrete about why she was locked up," Taisiya said. "The most frightening thing of all is that the law gives a lot of power to psychiatrists and doctors to do what they want." |
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Good old English spirit! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MG27BKwjaI |
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hc
Post Roaster
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 4545
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Aug 22, 2007 - 11:36 AM |
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leidelaohu
Wonder Wit
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 3780
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Aug 22, 2007 - 11:45 AM |
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| wolfy wrote: |
| Taken to a mental ward, Mrs Arap noted that many of its occupants seemed perfectly sane. "I was surprised that among them were lots of normal people," she wrote in "Madhouse". "But how they [staff] communicated with them: They shouted, they beat them up, they put them on drips, after which people became like zombies, they raped them, carried them off in the night and returned them in the morning, tormented." |
Sounds like the California prison system ... |
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shanghaiceltic
Board Royalty
Joined: Sep 20, 2005
Posts: 7618
Location: Perth WA
Status: Offline
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Aug 22, 2007 - 12:23 PM |
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The so called great game in Asia was played by both the UK and Russia that is a cause of the situation today, so it is not as quite one sided as you would put it. The causes go back a long way. The wrongs of it are historical but still need to be sorted out. Sadly our so called leaders don't seem to read histories.
Russia invaded Afghanistan and the US responded by arming militia so a war by proxy could be fought but at the same time sowing the seeds for Al Quaeda to flourish. Not a good move.
Russia also invaded Czechosovakia and Hungary. It signed an agreement with Germany over the invasion of Poland. It is till fighting in the Caucasus region. So Russia is not entirely peaceful in its moves.
Stalin also encouraged North Korea and China to go to war with South Korea that in turn led to the Vietnam war.
So whilst there was a cold war in Europe there was shooting wars in the Far East not exactly a stable situation.
As I stated earlier I was on boats on cold war operations and during the Falklands, not an enjoyable time and scary. That experience changed a lot of my thinking, but I can only see Russia going backwards at present. I do agree that the Neo-Cons in the US and Tony Blair in particular have not helped. If Russia fully re-arms then I can only see an opportunity for the superpowers of all hues and politics to make more invasions in the name of stability. |
_________________
I have parrallel bars at home, one for gin and one for whiskey |
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Borodino
Reacher
Joined: Jan 03, 2007
Posts: 316
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Aug 22, 2007 - 02:10 PM |
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It's all very well and good to present Putin -- and the revanchism he represents -- as simply a historical reaction to other forces. I'm sure that's what he says to himself in the morning, as he sets about entrenching his own position, imprisoning journalists and smashing the knuckles of anyone who tries to climb up his slippery red ladder: "Another day reacting to impersonal historical forces, ho-hum."
Poor chap! If only these impersonal historical forces would let him alone for five minutes, he wouldn't have to act like a power-hungry murderer! If only he didn't have to do it, the poor, poor chap. It makes me want to weep.
I wonder, Henry, why your moral sense is so exquisitely tuned to anglo-saxon crimes, and so very unable to pick up on anyone else's. After all, I'm sure impersonal historical forces could adequately explain any crime whatsoever -- even Bush's. Hell, even Blair's. You would very rightly be furious if anyone suggested it, beacuse you would rightly know that the explanation was of an entirely different order to the problem posed.
There is such a thing as moral choice. Putin made his. |
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leidelaohu
Wonder Wit
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 3780
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Aug 22, 2007 - 02:19 PM |
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| Borodino wrote: |
| ... I'm sure impersonal historical forces could adequately explain any crime whatsoever -- even Bush's. |
Not Bush. God spoke to him personally out of a tuna sandwich one morning and told him to punish those heathens. They even reported it on Faux News. |
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hc
Post Roaster
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 4545
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Aug 22, 2007 - 02:46 PM |
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"I wonder, Henry, why your moral sense is so exquisitely tuned to anglo-saxon crimes, and so very unable to pick up on anyone else's."
A-ha!
I knew it was coming. The good ole "you are just saying that because you hate the UK" line, which by the way is the EXACT same line as the Chinese love to say and that we all condemn them for.
I could talk about the crimes of a lot of other countries, like mine for example, except that my country is such a non-player that it doesnt really matter, differently from yours. Doh.
And did I make you feel guilty and uncomfortable by mentioning all the shite that your country did to this world? Ahh....I can see some guilt here guys....that's all good....
Anyway, let's move on.
Come closer a bit.
No, closer yet...yes...
Let's thin slice this whole thing: "So Russia is not entirely peaceful in its moves."
Who said that? Me? They are as bad as their antagonists. Maybe better.
It's a chess game. One side moves, the other responds. Shall we talk about the regimes the US supported? Shall we talk about Chile again? Or Timor Leste? Or so many other places where intervention led to a big fat catastrophe?
"So whilst there was a cold war in Europe there was shooting wars in the Far East not exactly a stable situation. "
That's bullcrap. It's stable for the dominant powers, and that's what they care about (and they should care about that). After WW2 everybody knew that the next war would be too destructive, it's faaaaantastic that the theater of operations moved to satellite states. "Let them gooks fight, we just press them buttons" would be the thinking cap used at the time I guess.
I'm sure that's what he says to himself in the morning, as he sets about entrenching his own position, imprisoning journalists and smashing the knuckles of anyone who tries to climb up his slippery red ladder:
What a silly shallow idea.
I will say it again, perhaps you missed some of my previous (excellent) posts: it will take generations for developing countries to reach the level where free press and all that stuff is cherished as it is in your country. Judging him by your standards just makes you look stupid. It's the same reason why so many expats here live horrible sad complaining (but overfed) lives: they think the Chinese behave the way they do assuming that they had the same number of calories, same hours of education, and that their parents had the same background as yours.
If you are comparing how Russia deals with their journalists with how the UK deals with theirs you are completely, thoroughly, inescapably out of reach to understand how a developing country works. And I think it is the case.
You are imposing your standards to someone that is quite not ready yet for them. Is this an excuse to how Putin behaves? Hell no, but things are what they are. If you dont like it, I'm sure a cyanide capsule could solve the problem very quickly, because THERE IS NO WAY to solve it in any simple way other than letting time take its course. If you impose anything on them it's the equivalent to give an a-cup to a girl whose tities are not yet there, the hormones are not yet there to make tities sprout.
You know what this discussion reminds me of? Just heard this another day: "oh my god, the guy pulling a cart in the sun with 30 water bottles smells soooo bad when he delivers water....he doesnt take a shower".
Doh. No shiat Sherlock! Really? You are surprised by that?
Same stuff. You are judging them from YOUR value system. And hence you completely miss the point.
Putin will do whatever the heck he wants because at this point in time he feels threatened.
He knows time to move is now since everyone is involved in Iraq.
If you want to change that, then go to Russia and climb on a soap box and see what happens.
If you did the same in London or Washington I guess the consequences would be exactly the same.
But hey, keep pretending morally your country is better than others, this is the only way you can sleep at night I guess. |
_________________
Click here to read the latest retarded PM Natalie sent me. Let's make her lose face and FINALLY leave this site. |
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shanghaiceltic
Board Royalty
Joined: Sep 20, 2005
Posts: 7618
Location: Perth WA
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Aug 22, 2007 - 03:58 PM |
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| Quote: |
| If you want to change that, then go to Russia and climb on a soap box and see what happens. |
And that is exactly what we have been discussing. |
_________________
I have parrallel bars at home, one for gin and one for whiskey |
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hc
Post Roaster
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 4545
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Aug 22, 2007 - 04:16 PM |
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shanghaiceltic
Board Royalty
Joined: Sep 20, 2005
Posts: 7618
Location: Perth WA
Status: Offline
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Aug 22, 2007 - 04:23 PM |
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Russia cannot be treated as am emerging country. |
_________________
I have parrallel bars at home, one for gin and one for whiskey |
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hc
Post Roaster
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 4545
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Aug 22, 2007 - 04:33 PM |
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leidelaohu
Wonder Wit
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 3780
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Aug 22, 2007 - 08:11 PM |
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| shanghaiceltic wrote: |
| Russia cannot be treated as am emerging country. |
If you really want to see a country that cannot be trusted, you only have to look as far as the Untied States of America. Fabricate lies and brazenly expound them in the United Nations. Trample on everything that's been done over the past fifty years to make the world a more rational place. Totally ignore the United Nations as soon as they don't do what you want, invade a sovereign foreign nation for no reason whatsoever. WMD's, anyone ? Kick over a fifty gallon drum full of rattlesnakes in one of the world's most screwed-up areas with no more forethought than "they'll be so happy to have democracy ..."
Putin at least is cunning, which means that you can trust that he'll do what makes sense for himself. In comparison, the flatlined ignoramuses in Washington are so far beyond rational behaviour that you couldn't trust them if they said 'tomorrow the sun will rise in the east.' |
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Borodino
Reacher
Joined: Jan 03, 2007
Posts: 316
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Aug 22, 2007 - 09:03 PM |
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HC, you can't -- not reposibly at least -- switch between these two modes of viewing the world at will. You can't justify everything that happens in Russia as historical inevitability and then level moral critiques at the US and the UK, because either everything is determined or everything is an ethical question, a matter of choice, and judging ethical questions requires a standpoint.
You say, "But you're just judging everything from your oewn standpoint". Who else's? One who thinks that locking up journalists is a good idea? Why on earth would I want to inhabit that moral universe -- and why, more cogently, would you? Perhaps you really do think it's a good idea, you know, to side with a killer. Because his justifications (have to lock up journalists to preserve social stability) are yours, are the justifications indeed of every Uncle Joe that ever lived. Social stability? Or the stability of his entrenchment? A stability serving whom? I say again: the Russian Cross.
Seen as pure material dialectic, of course, you have no grounds to judge the matter either way -- no ethical grounds. I'm as aware as the next man that "there is no syllogism such that the major and minor terms constitute statements of fact and the conclusion defines a value". Hell, if David Hume hadn't written that, I would've. But, as Hume said, just as the events are determined, so are my moral responses to them, and if you'll excuse the stupidity of being disgusted by an ex-KGB strongman murdering his enemies, then I'm sure you'll forgive me.
You seem to think you have stumbled across some great truth. It has a name: "sophomoric cultural materialism". Wedded, naturally, to "instinctive hatred of the west" and "readiness to throw text-based support behind any murderer who dislikes George Bush." You call me simple? I hate the fricken lot of them. There are only two sides: the powerful and the ones who get woken up at 3 in the morning by the bang on the door. This is the axis on which you have to locate yourself. I see no virtue whatsoever in your explcitly stated support of this lethal thug.
You mention the smelly hauler. Unwittingly, perhaps, you are echoing George Orwell's "One gains nothing by denying that the poor smell". You miss, however, the simple brilliance of his conclusion: "Use soap". Your solution is rather less elegant: "It can't possibly be helped". The words, I might say, of a freshly-showered man.
Russia is behind -- and not in spite of Putin. Because of him. |
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hc
Post Roaster
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 4545
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Aug 22, 2007 - 10:44 PM |
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"to side with a killer"
I stopped reading your post at this exact place.
Ok, ok, I read Orwell's quote and the other chap too. I am sure you had a t\bonner just typing this quote didnt you? That's ok, I understand.
Again, I am not saying Putin is better or worse than anyone, I am saying having a powerful Putin is better than not having one.
Saying anyone is better or worse than Putin given who is ruling the world now is shear shortsightedness.
So, Putin killed a couple of journalists and didnt wash his hands before supper. Well. Blair and Bush lied to entire nations and their idiotic people even re-elected the later.
Now you will give me the bullcrap that Iraq under Saddam was worse than it is now, I am sure.
Go ask the 600,000 Iraqis dead in shallow graves, thanks to your great democratic country doing a great good for humanity (stealing oil). |
_________________
Click here to read the latest retarded PM Natalie sent me. Let's make her lose face and FINALLY leave this site. |
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Borodino
Reacher
Joined: Jan 03, 2007
Posts: 316
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Aug 22, 2007 - 10:48 PM |
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Yeah, nice one Henry. The old moves are the best ones, huh?
Change the tune. |
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hc
Post Roaster
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 4545
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| Posted:
Aug 22, 2007 - 11:30 PM |
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rayfish
LoopKicker
Joined: June 11, 2006
Posts: 987
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Aug 23, 2007 - 01:23 AM |
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Borodino wrote:
"You mention the smelly hauler. Unwittingly, perhaps, you are echoing George Orwell's "One gains nothing by denying that the poor smell". You miss, however, the simple brilliance of his conclusion: "Use soap". Your solution is rather less elegant: "It can't possibly be helped". The words, I might say, of a freshly-showered man."
This is not the first time you have used this analogy, and it's a shame you don't see the hypocrisy of it. Telling people who have to slave away to 'use soap' is 'enlightened' ignorance, as if it were a matter of personal choice alone. You may not want to hear this, but this sounds to me like Underh20's justification for not supporting AIDS victims: it's 'personal accountability,' you see, those socially irresponsible blacks in Africa should stop receiving the hard-earned tax dollars of moral European citizens. "Use a condom"
As you are well aware, or should be, those who lecture the poor laborer to use soap are usually the same upright gentlemen who attribute their 'outstanding careers' to hard work. Ah, the self-inflating illusions of social darwinism... |
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leidelaohu
Wonder Wit
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 3780
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Aug 23, 2007 - 01:48 AM |
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| Borodino wrote: |
| Yeah, balanced powers keeping each other in check. That always works. (To quote Richard Curtis, "The competing blocs are each so powerful and well-armed that it would be complete madness to go to war. There's one small problem with this plan: It's complete bollocks.") |
You're not doing your position much good with this crap, you know. A balance of power is anything but bollocks. Check your history.
Most societies have not been able to keep their tendencies towards assault and battery under control without some external force ... look at what's happened in the US with nothing to stop those cabbageheads. We've had stupid presidents before but none without some containing external threat.
Besides, we're already used to hating the Rooskies. It's comfortable and cost-effective since we wouldn't have to develop any new enemies.
btw, you are seriously quoting a freestyle dancing dog team trainer as a political analyst ? Or the screenwriter of Four Weddings and a Funeral ? You might want to upgrade your auctorite a little before the next post. This guy isn't gonna out-debate William of Orange, even if William is dead. |
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Borodino
Reacher
Joined: Jan 03, 2007
Posts: 316
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Aug 23, 2007 - 07:26 AM |
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^
Who hates Russians? I can't see that wanting them to live in a peaceful society in which they can dissent without being shot is hatred exactly. You must be using some marvellous new definition of the term.
Rayfish, you've completely missed Orwell's point. It's that the poor need exactly the same things as the rich. They are not fundamentally different; they do not exist according to different rules. It is not a question of lack of education or insufficient diet or cultural difference. All that separates you and the hauler is soap. Orwell is specifically critiquing those who say things like, "Well, of course he does smell. He smells because poor people don't understand that they need to wash, the poor dears" ... which is precisely the attitude being demonstarted here twoards Russian politics. (HC, I remember, has already compared them to a pre-pubescent girl. Who's condescending here?)
HC, by the "old moves" I mean your constant, unwavering method: at every point, distract discussion of whatever topic is at hand (such as say, a journalist-murdering Russian tyrant) by criticising American foreign policy. It's a vulgar tu quoque. Bush being bad does not make Putin any better. |
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shanghaiceltic
Board Royalty
Joined: Sep 20, 2005
Posts: 7618
Location: Perth WA
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Aug 23, 2007 - 07:57 AM |
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| hc wrote: |
Oh really.
Tell us: how should it be treated then?
And what is the criteria?
Oh yeah, we have the G8+ Russia bs right.
You are letting definitions get in the way. Makes very difficult to have clarity thinking inside this sandbox.
In terms of social development and development of the systems required to have democracy flourishing they are behind a number of countries. |
You cannot define a country as emerging just because it lags behind on a democratic process.
You need to bring into consideration their scientific, industrial and energy base, a developed arts culture which has had influence worldwide.
What definitions are you using? The less than a $ per day for a certain % of the population? |
_________________
I have parrallel bars at home, one for gin and one for whiskey |
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leidelaohu
Wonder Wit
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 3780
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Aug 23, 2007 - 09:34 AM |
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| Borodino wrote: |
| Who hates Russians? I can't see that wanting them to live in a peaceful society in which they can dissent without being shot is hatred exactly. You must be using some marvellous new definition of the term. |
Americans do, for one ... we're trained to it. Russian Bear, Top Gun, decades of indoctrination; hell, the Russians are America's traditional foe in the way the French were England's ... anyway, seems like you are missing a humour bone. Or maybe you wore it out, living in Shanghai. |
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rayfish
LoopKicker
Joined: June 11, 2006
Posts: 987
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Aug 23, 2007 - 10:29 AM |
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Borodino,
You wouldn't know which book the Orwell quote came from, would you? Best if we could see the original in context. |
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