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yingying236
Wonder Wit
Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Posts: 3832
Status: Offline
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 Posted:
Aug 31, 2007 - 10:35 PM |
 
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| TheDudeAbides wrote: |
| may_yyyy wrote: |
The 5000 years information is from internet. In remote antiquity times, while people was looking for food, they found that some of the foods can alleviate the symptom of some disease and some can aggravate the sympton. That is the origin of TCM.
If you think TCM is crap or racket, then what do you think about QiGong, which is a part of TCM.
How do you explain "二指禅功" and "一指禅功" did by 海灯法师? see the video
http://v.iask.com/b/113476.html Do tell me it is not true please.
How do you explain that someone can stand on an egg without breaing that egg?
How do you explain someone can pull a car with his teeth? |
Oh I see so Chinese can all do that because they take TCM? What a load of crap. If you're going to come up with argument, don't post rubbish like that, I don't see too many elderly Chinese capable of taking on more than 2 flights of stairs.
A lot of CHINESE I know, perfectly well educated, who grew up with TCM, call it a load of crap and a racket. Sure there's probably a few elements to it that are worthwhile looking into, but on the whole, I don't buy it. |
well not EVERY elderly Chinese practices Qigong. Qigong is about manipulating meridians etc... and Qi surprisingly. I admit i dont know alot about Qigong and although im a firm believer in TCM .. im somewhat scepticle about Qigong. However i have seen some crazy old ladies do some crazy ass things who pratice Qigong.
i have spoken to ppl who practice Qigong and they say they feel healthier for it. |
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I've never done good things, I've never done bad things. |
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8lrr8
StreetBeater
Joined: Oct 14, 2004
Posts: 2344
Location: here!
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| Posted:
Sep 02, 2007 - 09:22 PM |
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| may_yyyy wrote: |
| If you think TCM is crap or racket, then what do you think about QiGong, which is a part of TCM. |
it's bullshit.
| may_yyyy wrote: |
How do you explain that someone can stand on an egg without breaing that egg?
How do you explain someone can pull a car with his teeth? |
um, it may be possible to do it w/o involving a young grasshopper, or confucius say, or some kinda ancient chinese secret. a physicist should be able to tell u if it's possible or not. same goes w/ pulling a car w/ one's teeth.
no voodoo involved. |
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8lrr8
StreetBeater
Joined: Oct 14, 2004
Posts: 2344
Location: here!
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Sep 02, 2007 - 09:42 PM |
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| yingying236 wrote: |
| ok i lied im blatantly going to try and enforce my views on all the non believers despite it being hopeless. Im going to fight for this thread till the end!!! |
ying,
before we have the chance to go further, can u tell me where u stand on the following conjectures:
1. at least 80% of TCM is bullshit.
2. at least 80% of TCM doctors are shit.
3. when TCM does work, the TCM doctor almost can never tell u why it works. by that i mean he/she cant tell the patient what the active chemical ingredient(s) are.
for each, agree/disagree? |
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Andreas
Board Royalty
Joined: Feb 27, 2004
Posts: 6410
Location: 31 N 121 E
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Sep 02, 2007 - 10:38 PM |
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I tried TCM, more than once. So did my wife, who is Chinese by the way. Also more than once. It did not work. That's a fact. And facts are all I need to establish if something works or not.
I would not even want to know, WHY it worked, if it worked. But it didn't. Next ! |
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If it has tits, tires, or a transom, there's gonna be issues! |
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hc
Post Roaster
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 4545
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Sep 02, 2007 - 11:00 PM |
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mrpango
Low Seater
Joined: Jan 26, 2007
Posts: 3274
Status: Offline
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Sep 03, 2007 - 10:28 AM |
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| yingying236 wrote: |
| mrpango wrote: |
TCM can be a bunch of bollocks to be honest.
My sister had eczma/eczema and we went to get some Chinese medicine especially made up. Didn't work for shiet. |
thanks for being so mature. >_<
have you not read my post properly? or other ppls posts at all? did you just come on this thread and post what you thought?
... bla bla |
I was just replying to the thread topic - I don't completely believe in TCM. You are biased towards it, so you can't have a balanced opinion 
My sister still has eczma. |
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iara
Veejay
Joined: June 09, 2006
Posts: 2074
Location: brazil-shanghai
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Sep 03, 2007 - 03:08 PM |
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"news release
From The University of Southampton
Ref: 05/71
01 May 2005
ACUPUNCTURE: BEYOND THE PLACEBO EFFECT
Researchers at the University of Southampton and University College London have shown for the first time that the impact of acupuncture goes beyond the acknowledged placebo effect caused by the patient's own expectation of feeling benefit from the treatment.
The scientists from Southampton, Dr George Lewith and Dr Peter White of the University's Complementary Medicine Research Unit, have distinguished between the placebo effects produced by a patient's expectation and the real effects of treatment in a group of patients with painful osteo-arthritis, by monitoring specific responses in the brain during treatment.
Working with the Functional Imaging Unit at University College London, Dr Peter White of Southampton and Dr Jérémie Pariente of UCL used sophisticated Positron Emission Tomography (PET) scans to find out what happened in the brains of patients receiving acupuncture-related treatment.
In one intervention patients were touched with blunt needles but were aware that the needle would not pierce the skin and that it did not have any therapeutic value. Scans showed that only the areas associated with the sensation of touch were activated in their brains.
Another intervention involved being treated using specially developed needles that give the impression of skin penetration without actually piercing the skin. The needles work like stage daggers, with the tip disappearing into the body of the needle when pressure is applied. These patients believed that the treatment was real and scans showed an area of the brain associated with the production of natural opiates - substances that act in a non-specific way to relieve pain - was activated in these patients.
Finally, the third intervention was real acupuncture. As well as the opiate centre, another region of the brain, the ipsilateral insular, was also activated during the treatment. This is a pathway known to be associated with acupuncture treatment and thought to be involved in pain modulation.
The brain activity in the third group of patients shows that real acupuncture elicits a demonstrable physiological effect over and above a simple skin prick. In addition, the response of the second group of patients who received the sham acupuncture treatment, indicates that the expectation of and belief in the treatment also has a physiological effect on the brain. The expectation appears to mediate a potentially powerful although non-specific clinical response to acupuncture.
Dr George Lewith comments: "By indicating a very specific neuronal pathway for acupuncture treatment, this research is an important step forward for understanding the basic mechanisms involved in acupuncture and placebo".
The findings are published in the 1 May edition of the journal NeuroImage. Dr Lewith and Dr White hope to continue their work with a more detailed programme of research, in conjunction with their colleagues.
The paper 'Expectancy and belief modulate the neuronal substrates of pain treated by acupuncture' appears in the Vol 25 Issue 4 of NeuroImage published on 1 May 2005 (pp 1161 - 1167). The authors are Jérémie Pariente, Peter White, Richard S.J. Frackowiak, and George Lewith"
we can say : " no creo en bruxas, mas que las ay, las ay" |
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may_yyyy
Seeker
Joined: Apr 26, 2007
Posts: 48
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Sep 03, 2007 - 04:01 PM |
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| 8lrr8 wrote: |
| may_yyyy wrote: |
| If you think TCM is crap or racket, then what do you think about QiGong, which is a part of TCM. |
it's bullshit. |
Qigong is a main component of TCM. It is record in the earliest existing TCM book《皇帝内经》. Based on TCM theory, the actions of Qigong wree designed according YingYang, five elements of metal-wood-water-fire-earth, main and collateral channels, internal organs including the heart-liver-spleen-lungs-kidneys-tomach-gall-intestines-bladder etc... So Qigong is one type of practice of TCM theory and the feedback of the practice helped the devolpment of TCM.
Seems you need to learn more about TCM  . |
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8lrr8
StreetBeater
Joined: Oct 14, 2004
Posts: 2344
Location: here!
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Sep 03, 2007 - 04:22 PM |
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| may_yyyy wrote: |
| Seems you need to learn more about TCM . |
why would i wanna learn more about voodoo?
hell, my time is better spent listening to the yin-yang twins rather than learn about TCM yin-yang grasshopper shit. |
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iamsaying
Newbie
Joined: Sep 07, 2007
Posts: 2
Status: Offline
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Sep 07, 2007 - 05:13 AM |
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you know Balls Palsy is an illness that can recover without any treatments and not very sure, about 50% of patients would do this way even with no help from MDs. this has already known by MDs in their classrooms. a few of cured cases of your mum would not firmly support your viewpoint: the disease is cured by your mom.
For some diseases like cancers, specifically when these cases are in a late stage, the hope for a complete cure is already gone and western MDs would in general treat they with watchful therapies to only prolong their lives. TCM might prolong patients' life as well or even a longer life, but that doesn’t' t mean TCM is better than western medicine, as most likely when patients adopt TCM they are still with other therapies at the same time. That actually means 1+1=2. this has already been proved in the medical literature.
I agree with you, some TCM therapies, including acupuncture, chinese herbs, and more, can be adopted into modern medicine.
| yingying236 wrote: |
about 3 weeks ago i was working at the clinic and overheard one of my mums patients telling other patients about how my mother helped her daughter. THe daughter was only 13 and suffered from Balls Palsy... she her mouth was crooked and she could only sleep with her eyes open. After one session of acupuncture the girl was able to sleep with her eyes closed... however half her face was still paralysed. After the second session she was completely healed.
This mother then referred another patient to my mother. This boy also had Balls Palsy... he even had been seeing another doctor for treatment but with no success. It took my mum 6 sessions and now completely healed.
Imo this rules out placebo affect. it also confirms that not every doctor is the same... technique and experience is very important and sometimes just natural talent.. ie. not everyone can be an artist, or musician etc... You can learn anything but it doesnt mean you will succeed or be great at it... your natural talent/ability limits you. |
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TheMasterofDisaster
SuperStar
Joined: Aug 31, 2007
Posts: 1355
Status: Offline
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Sep 07, 2007 - 11:35 PM |
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TCM is much more likely to give you liver disease than help you in anyway.
Recent surveys, worldwide, showed over 66% of TCM "treatments" are not what they claim to be. |
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bougie
Board Buddha
Joined: Nov 20, 2004
Posts: 13323
Location: Wuhan Hubei China
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Sep 08, 2007 - 04:56 AM |
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^ you could say that about almost anything ..  |
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TheMasterofDisaster
SuperStar
Joined: Aug 31, 2007
Posts: 1355
Status: Offline
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Sep 08, 2007 - 04:29 PM |
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^ you mean you could say, 66% of rhinocerous' penises worldwide aint all they cracked up to be?
I'll take your word for it. |
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dadalee
Seeker
Joined: Sep 25, 2004
Posts: 50
Status: Offline
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Sep 19, 2007 - 09:33 PM |
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altho some of the theories dont make sense,there are some did work for me |
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One_Brick_Shy
Rocker
Joined: May 20, 2004
Posts: 765
Location: Out looking for a brick, of course.
Status: Offline
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Oct 01, 2007 - 08:46 PM |
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Are we talking real or fake. I'm sure if we have other fake products that they've also hit on TCM. As for me, have had good results from TCM. Treatment of intestinal challenges and colds. Where TCM works is re-balancing the body. Western medicine traditionally is to mask and not to necessarily promote healing. It depends on the body's own defenses to rebulid whereas TCM helps the body to rebuild these defenses. I also believe these TCM don't work so well if we smoke, do drugs, drink to much, or don't eat a balanced diet. My thoughts and experience with TCM. I'm sold on most of the benefits as it works most times for me. But then Tylenol gets rid of my headaches too. |
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TheMasterofDisaster
SuperStar
Joined: Aug 31, 2007
Posts: 1355
Status: Offline
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Oct 03, 2007 - 02:29 AM |
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^ nothing gets rid of a headache like a red-hot needle rammed up ur japseye. welcome to TCM |
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One_Brick_Shy
Rocker
Joined: May 20, 2004
Posts: 765
Location: Out looking for a brick, of course.
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Oct 03, 2007 - 08:34 AM |
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| TheMasterofDisaster wrote: |
| ^ nothing gets rid of a headache like a red-hot needle rammed up ur japseye. welcome to TCM |
Wimp!!! |
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kevinhenan
Talker
Joined: Feb 01, 2007
Posts: 107
Location: changning district, shanghai
Status: Offline
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Oct 18, 2007 - 02:38 PM |
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sometimes it works, sometimes it does not work, depending on many factors, like illness, pracitoner, etc. |
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kevin:all the world is a very narrow bridge and the important thing is not to be afraid to fall off! |
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Hands_of_Marmalade
Reacher
Joined: Nov 28, 2006
Posts: 249
Location: Shanghai
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Oct 22, 2007 - 11:11 PM |
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I agree that 80 percent of TCM is total bollocks. The twenty percent that is effective is no differnt from any folk medecine tradition in other parts of the world.
That is, it has arisen out of need and cirmumstance. Thousands of years of ill people seeking remedies have led to a a catalogue of known substances and limited techniques for treating a variety of ailments. Little is known or understood about why these things work, and the main avenue of enquiry has been trial and error. In order to explain these outcomes a belief system has arisen around it to support and justify the results. Frankly this system is based on magic and superstition instead of logic and reason.
Sometimes the shroud of mystery and ill-logic that pervades TCM is benign and interesting. Often it leads to fraud, extortion and malpractice.
The reason TCM doesn't get the respect it feels it deserves from western tradition is that western doctors are held to much much higher standards of proof and demonstrability that TCM rejects out of convenience. If TCM outcomes are subjected to tests of repeatability, independant confirmation and systematic experimentation then you find that as pointed out - most of it does not meet these standards. Nobody has ever found qi. Nobody knows what it is, what it does, or why or how it is supposed to exist. There is no reason at all to suppose that it does. But all of TCM is based on this. Now - the same thing could be said about atoms, or molecules or proteins, DNA etc etc. But their existance was first suspected, their effects observed, their properties measured through analytical scientific means, until eventually their existance was proved and later directly observed.
Amongst the supporters of TCM I've encountered there are a variety of wild logic gaps and tenets of fanatacism that lead them to their conclusions. But there are three whoppers that are so common and pervasive they should be known as the loopy trinity.
1. My brother, aunt, friend, in-law ____ had _______ disease and was very ill. He went to the hospital, clinic, western doctor and they couldn't do anything. They gave him treatment, medicine but it didn't do any good. But THEN we took him to the TCM practicioner and after a week of treatment he was totally better!
This logic is too stupid for words, but trust me... It comes out EVERY time the subject arises. If you don't understand why this thinking path is absurd then perhaps you shouldn't be having medicine.
2. It works. Therefore it must be true.
Look - Almost any type of care given to a patient will have SOME beneficial effect. The placeabo effect alone can be massive. If you put someone in the care of another and give them loving attention they will get better than they would be without care. Massage and touching can have a great effect and speed recovery times. Hell, even just drinking regular draughts of hot water can improve your health. The reality is that in humans, unless you have a very serious illness you will probably get better over time without any medecine or treatment at all if you rest and take proper care of yourself. This is why TCM is always quite effective in treating mild or chronic sickness, and not very useful for car crashes, or life threatening diseases.
3. TCM has a tradition of 3-5000 years. Ergo it must be superior. 3000 years plus of practice means that accumulated wisdom trumps the relatively new-fangled techniques of anti-biotics and radiation therapy. Again, this is simply retarded, but so commonly believed that it's a cliche. For most of these years of practice, mankind believed the earth was flat, thunder was created by goblins, and that the passing by of a menstruating woman would cause your crops to turn into dust.
"But western medicine has so much to learn from TCM!" you say. Probably true. Science steals ideas from folklore and traditions everywhere. I'm sure there is lot of knowledge and information built up that vast experiement of trial and error that has been going on all this time. But if there is no scientific method involved it probably shouldn't be called "medicine". |
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8lrr8
StreetBeater
Joined: Oct 14, 2004
Posts: 2344
Location: here!
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Oct 23, 2007 - 10:24 AM |
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yingying, ball's in your court. |
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yu888
Board Deity
Joined: Jan 25, 2003
Posts: 18042
Location: ZhongShanParkArea SH
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Oct 23, 2007 - 12:59 PM |
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maybe I am missing something, why does she need to defend her beliefs? After all it IS a belief not a necessarily a "fact" correct? Opinions and beliefs are held to a much lower and subjective standard that "facts". obviously your standards are different.
Personally I'd like to know where the 80% figure came from since you are discussing "facts"? |
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8lrr8
StreetBeater
Joined: Oct 14, 2004
Posts: 2344
Location: here!
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| Posted:
Oct 23, 2007 - 01:41 PM |
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| yu888 wrote: |
| maybe I am missing something, why does she need to defend her beliefs? |
her ass doesnt have to do anything. however, she did say, "Im going to fight for this thread till the end!!!" hence my post.
| yu888 wrote: |
| After all it IS a belief not a necessarily a "fact" correct? |
the same can be said about evolution. but let's not go down that road.
| yu888 wrote: |
| Personally I'd like to know where the 80% figure came from since you are discussing "facts"? |
it's probably a WAG. and one that's probably too low, actually. |
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littlefish123
Barker
Joined: Mar 20, 2006
Posts: 139
Status: Offline
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Oct 23, 2007 - 04:44 PM |
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| her ass doesnt have to do anything. |
from what i have heard, you probably wish it would.
Evolution has scientific basis in that evidence seems to indicate there has been a path that animals on earth have followed; but much of TCM has yet to be properly researched. Many of those treatments that DO work have been shown to have scientific reason, but that includes results that may have been based on the power of faith and "placebo effect". Acupuncture and pressure points for example actually utilise existing nerves and points that do have some effect on the body ib a variety of ways. Obviously more research needs to be put into it to really weed out what works and what does not. In the mean time, it will keep working as well or not, as it does. |
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Hands_of_Marmalade
Reacher
Joined: Nov 28, 2006
Posts: 249
Location: Shanghai
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Oct 23, 2007 - 07:37 PM |
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| 8lrr8 wrote: |
| yu888 wrote: |
| maybe I am missing something, why does she need to defend her beliefs? |
her ass doesnt have to do anything. however, she did say, "Im going to fight for this thread till the end!!!" hence my post.
| yu888 wrote: |
| After all it IS a belief not a necessarily a "fact" correct? |
the same can be said about evolution. but let's not go down that road.
| yu888 wrote: |
| Personally I'd like to know where the 80% figure came from since you are discussing "facts"? |
it's probably a WAG. and one that's probably too low, actually. |
Lol. Nobody "needs" to defend anything. I don't expect to change the mind of any die-hard supporter of TCM. Once you've been around a few of them for long enough (And the laowai I've meet studying TCM in China are priceless in this regard.) you realize they bear a striking resemblence to fanatical born-again Christians. No amount of logic or reason is going to have any effect whatsoever.
80% is a vast generalization and a very kind one at that. A scientific number would probably be far closer to 100%. |
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yu888
Board Deity
Joined: Jan 25, 2003
Posts: 18042
Location: ZhongShanParkArea SH
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Oct 24, 2007 - 10:44 AM |
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personally io don't care if its 75% or 95% BS, if one is going to ask someone for more factual backing on their beliefs, which like Hands said is like asking most neo-Christians to prove their faith I suppose, then one should not be quoting numbers and percentages like "80%". It kind of dilutes and legitimacy one has to ask for facts when one cannot back up one's own. That was my point.
An you are right, when TCM does work, there is a reason. TCM is based on thousands of years of trial and error but it is based on that experience rather than scientific evidence. Some of it can be collaborated and it seems some places are finally doing that, (many large pharma companies are utilising some TCM aspects into their meds after research showed certain things did indeed work- recent reports indicate that over 20% of TCM meds contain actual chemicals that have been show to have effects and side effects) but as with any clinical testing of such "new ideas", it takes funding and time. I think it will be a long time before we get enough evidence to even begin to truly assertain the degree of legitimacy of TCM in any statistical manner. |
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