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Do you believe Traditional Chinese Medicine?

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may_yyyy

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Joined: Apr 26, 2007
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Posted: Aug 29, 2007 - 04:50 PM
Post subject: Do you believe Traditional Chinese Medicine?

Chinese Traditional Medicine (TCM) has a history of more than 5,000 years. It has a complete theory about the occurrence, development and treatment of diseases. According to TCM theory, the occurrence of diseases is the incoordination between Yin and Yang and the treatment of diseases is the reestablishement of the equilibrium between them. Yin and Yangare the two concepts from ancient Chinese philosophy and they represent the two contradictories in everything. In TCM theory, Yin and Yang are used to explain physiological and pathological phenomena of the body. They are also the principles of diagnosing and treating diseases. There are two common ways of TCM curing diseases: drug therapy and non-drug therapy. As for drug therapy, traditional medicines are used such as herbs, mineral, animals, etc. As for non-drug therapy,there are acupuncture and moxibustion, massage, cupping.

Do you believe TCM? Have you ever tried TCM to cure your disease since you come to China?

bougie
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Posted: Aug 29, 2007 - 11:10 PM

I've thought about acupunture. I know a guy that had it and his back was much better for 9 yrs. There is definitely something to the whole energy equilibrium thing

guel27
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Posted: Aug 30, 2007 - 11:27 AM

sometimes but i havent tried

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8lrr8
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Posted: Aug 30, 2007 - 11:45 AM

i've heard TCM has never passed a double-blind test. except for one case.

lemongrass
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Posted: Aug 30, 2007 - 01:39 PM

I believe it at some point. Also saw people successfully lost weight through acupuncture therapy. But I am the insecure kind. Probably wouldnt try any myself.

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jenming

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Posted: Aug 30, 2007 - 01:42 PM

8lrr8 wrote:

i've heard TCM has never passed a double-blind test. except for one case.

that's a horribly broad blanket statement.

I've had TCM (massage and cupping) for nerve problems (sciatica) before, and it's mostly gone.

But when you go for that kind of medicine, it's a gamble as to whether or not the "practicioner" knows what they're doing. If you're lucky and find someone who has done serious study and isn't just going off what their grandma told them or what they read in a book, then it can be a life-saver. But you have to approach each person slowly, and get a feeling from them.

As usual in china, the best recourse is to get a recommendation from a friend. A friend who has gone to a TCM practitioner and is (long term) satisfied with their results.

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8lrr8
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Posted: Aug 30, 2007 - 01:47 PM

jenming wrote:

that's a horribly broad blanket statement.

it can be as broad as J-lo's ass so long as it's probably true.

jenming wrote:

I've had TCM (massage and cupping) for nerve problems (sciatica) before, and it's mostly gone.

far more likely u were healed from the massage part than from the cupping part.

jenming

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Posted: Aug 30, 2007 - 02:38 PM

maybe so. But that and "i've heard" statements don't invalidate TCM as a whole. "i've heard" statments for or against TCM are just as useless.

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8lrr8
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Posted: Aug 30, 2007 - 03:42 PM

jenming wrote:

But that and "i've heard" statements don't invalidate TCM as a whole. "i've heard" statments for or against TCM are just as useless.

i was trying to give it to u nicely. guess that went over your head. the fact that all save for one method have all but failed double-blind, placebo-controlled experiments should be enough to invalidate TCM.

or maybe u prefer triple-blind experiments? Wink

shanghaijack

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Posted: Aug 30, 2007 - 04:35 PM

Chinese Traditional Medicine (TCM) has a history of more than 5,000 years. It has a complete theory of BLAH BLAH

Well Aristotle's geocentric theory is pushing 2500 years, has probably has just as much evidence in its favour (some religious nuts still believe it too)

Theres a reason Western hospitals don't drill holes in peoples skulls and stuff these days

bleucheese
Veejay
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Joined: Aug 01, 2003
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Posted: Aug 30, 2007 - 05:03 PM

Quote:

the fact that all save for one method have all but failed double-blind, placebo-controlled experiments should be enough to invalidate TCM

now its a fact.

source please?

8lrr8
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Posted: Aug 30, 2007 - 05:20 PM

bleucheese wrote:

source please?

an old college pre-med buddy of mine. the guy was a walking encyclopedia. and i dont mean of the bookworm variant either. he grew up around TCM which he later rejected after he started researching it himself and drew his own conclusions.

if u were expecting me to give u a URL, u're probably disappointed.

Kleonri

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Posted: Aug 30, 2007 - 05:39 PM

I think it works

who'd practise anything for 5 000 years if it wouldn't?

Andreas
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Posted: Aug 30, 2007 - 11:54 PM

Where did you get those 5000 years from?

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Andreas
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Posted: Aug 30, 2007 - 11:56 PM
Post subject: Re: Do you believe Traditional Chinese Medicine?

may_yyyy wrote:

I think it's a great business concept. You get some useless dried crap which costs you next to nothing, and sell it for good money. It does not get much better than that, now does it?

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iara
Veejay
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Posted: Aug 31, 2007 - 08:03 AM

For me, any kind of therapy, TCM or western medicine can work when do it properly and with the pacient cooperation.
I just started acupuncture this week in a chinese hospital and maybe is all psychological but something is changing, in a good way.
The problem with people is that we want to do something now and be cured right away, or we give up.
I can be wrong, but I think western medicine works faster but is not so "healthy" (you take medicine for your pain and then need another one for
your stomach cause the first one is too strong and so on...), and TCM works slowly but also works with your mind and soul.
So, I believe, or I wouldn't have started TCM!

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TheDudeAbides

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Posted: Aug 31, 2007 - 09:59 AM

I think most of it is crap, with the possible exception of acupuncture, which even a lot of westerners swear by (and is usually the first thing TCM advocates bring up). I'd agree with Andreas in that it's just a bit of a racket, I'd take western medicine over TCM any day of the week.

may_yyyy

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Posted: Aug 31, 2007 - 02:25 PM

The 5000 years information is from internet. In remote antiquity times, while people was looking for food, they found that some of the foods can alleviate the symptom of some disease and some can aggravate the sympton. That is the origin of TCM.

If you think TCM is crap or racket, then what do you think about QiGong, which is a part of TCM.
How do you explain "二指禅功" and "一指禅功" did by 海灯法师? see the video
http://v.iask.com/b/113476.html Do tell me it is not true please.
How do you explain that someone can stand on an egg without breaing that egg?
How do you explain someone can pull a car with his teeth?

yingying236

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Posted: Aug 31, 2007 - 05:45 PM

i totally trust Chinese medicine ive been around it ... have a good basic understanding of it and have seen what it can do.

i know im totally bias as its what my family do however it also means i know what the hell im talking about. Ive also been raised in the west where such medicine has been ridiculed etc... however becoming more and more accepted.

I would disagree with shanghaijack that its just theory... its been more like trial and error... they tried something out if it worked then great they mind a note of it and that got passed on from generation to generation etc... if it didnt then they just forgot about it.

TCM is based on ying yang and the 5 elemants being in balance... when this balance is out of whack you get symptoms that are expressed through the body that can help you identify what is out of balance. ie. rashes and spots are from excess heat/fire... of course then you can get a combination of excess damp heat/ water fire. Using these symptoms and then checking a patients pulse and looking at their tongue which tells you more about the individual you can give a personal prescription of herbs that will counter act the problem.

Why i personally believe Chinese medicine is better is that it treats every person individually and can treat almost ANYTHING. Ive known patients that come in as they were told that they could not be cured or helped by their western doctor so came to us as a last resort. For example eczema sufferers those who suffer from it severely will go to the western doctor and be will give them sterilizers. These sterilizers may help temporarily by calming down the inflamation but it wont cure it. Chinese medicine finds the cause of the disease which is different in everyone... in one patient it may be too much damp heat in the liver... for another it may be too much damp heat in the kidney. (these subtle differences make a difference) They then treat the cause of the illness whilst treating the illness directly so workign externally and internally.

Of course there are some really stupid doctors. A problem with chinese medicine is that there is never just one way to treat an illness but its also good. Its a problem in that it makes it very hard to standardize and also some doctors give TCＭ a baaaaaad baaaaaad name. Eszcema a disease that is not fatal by any means... some ppl have DIED from being treated for it 0_o .. how? Kidney failure... i know what you are thinking WTF?!?! its an auto-immune system disease and the patients dies from kidney failure.

This is from the doctor being unrealistic wanting to give results as quickly as possible so prescribing herbs that are too strong and damage the kidney leading it to fail. A good doctor will know that if a patient has severe eszcema and has had for years it shouldnt take months for it cure as youd be overwhelming the body.

Of course im not saying that TCM can treat EVERYTHING... if you have a tumour you have a tumour and you need to go have surgery to remove it. However post surgery i would advice to see TCM to lessen the chances of a tumour regrowth.

Interesting fact... we all know that cancer is mutation of normal cells being replicating at a rapid rate. THere have been studies showing that if you choose not to remove the tumour and treat the cancer with TCM with what is known as a binign treatment then the cancerous cells can and hopefully will mutate back into the original cells as all cells have a memory.

However this is a long and painstaking method and i would only suggest this as a last resort.

Now onto the placebo affect. There have been case studies on this .. with arthritus patients. There were 3 groups... one group that got the conventional western medicine treatment, another that got a "FAKE" acupuncture and one group that got real acupuncture... basically results showed that there was a higher % of improvement in the placebo group compared to the western med group but the real acu group showed the most improvement. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4111047.stm

another link showing how herbal medicine can help with arthritus:
http://www.cccm.co.uk/herbalmedicine.0.html

There are studies going on everywhere nowdays that actually show scientific proof that certain herbs have such and such chemical which is why it works. cant be arsed to find links as there will be loads.

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Last edited by yingying236 on Aug 31, 2007 - 06:16 PM; edited 2 times in total

mrpango

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Posted: Aug 31, 2007 - 05:52 PM

TCM can be a bunch of bollocks to be honest.

My sister had eczma/eczema and we went to get some Chinese medicine especially made up. Didn't work for shiet.

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yingying236

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Posted: Aug 31, 2007 - 06:24 PM

mrpango wrote:

TCM can be a bunch of bollocks to be honest.

My sister had eczma/eczema and we went to get some Chinese medicine especially made up. Didn't work for shiet.

thanks for being so mature. >_<

have you not read my post properly? or other ppls posts at all? did you just come on this thread and post what you thought?

Every doctor is different in the way they treat patients... infact some are really crap and havnt got a clue in what they are doing. Some just arent very good. My mother has 3 other doctors working for her... one of them was a professor in China which should mean hes better then my mum. This is not the case... more often then not he cant actually heal a patient and they run to my mum.

You took your sister to one doctor .. it didnt work, you cant say that TCM is bullfeces based on one doctor.... most ppl when going to see western doctors for a serious illness go to see more then one doctor. Why shouldnt this apply to TCM?

does your sister still have eszcema? all i can say is that TCM does work and eszcema is probably one of the easiest diseases to treat in terms of TCM... we have a clinic in Bradford.. why? As Bradfords population has a very very high % of Asians: Indians, Pakistanis etc... A lot of them suffer from eszcema... so my mum being the clever women she is set up a clinic there and 80% of the patients there come in because of eszcema. Some are cured after 2 weeks.. some after 2 years... depends on age of patient, severity of illness and how long they have had it for.

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TheDudeAbides

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Posted: Aug 31, 2007 - 10:07 PM

may_yyyy wrote:

Oh I see so Chinese can all do that because they take TCM? What a load of crap. If you're going to come up with argument, don't post rubbish like that, I don't see too many elderly Chinese capable of taking on more than 2 flights of stairs.

A lot of CHINESE I know, perfectly well educated, who grew up with TCM, call it a load of crap and a racket. Sure there's probably a few elements to it that are worthwhile looking into, but on the whole, I don't buy it.

yingying236

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Posted: Aug 31, 2007 - 10:18 PM

it slightly infuriates me when i hear ppl saying that they think its all balls. However i wont enforce my views on others... i just think its a shame that TCM isnt more recognised. It can really help. Of course im not saying it can heal everything .. of course it cant.

Infact recently a cancer patient of my mothers died. He was told by the doctors he would only have 6 months to live. He came to my mum and lived for 2 years longer then expected. Recently after his death the whole family came to thank my mother... are you thinking why? he died!!! well im sure everyone knows that the last few months for a cancer patient is pretty unbearable and alot are sedated with drugs that just numb their mind. He did not need the drugs and his quality of life was far better then it would have been sans TCM.

I know mutiple couples from working at my parents clinic who went to my mother as they were unable to have children and told so by their western doctors after years of trying. They try TCM and sometimes after a year sometimes after 4 years they are able to have a child. Sometimes even more then one child. The first time my mother flew back to China she got upgraded to first class as one of her patients was a pilot who was unable to have children with his partner. They now have 3 beautiful boys.

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yingying236

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Posted: Aug 31, 2007 - 10:26 PM

about 3 weeks ago i was working at the clinic and overheard one of my mums patients telling other patients about how my mother helped her daughter. THe daughter was only 13 and suffered from Balls Palsy... she her mouth was crooked and she could only sleep with her eyes open. After one session of acupuncture the girl was able to sleep with her eyes closed... however half her face was still paralysed. After the second session she was completely healed.

This mother then referred another patient to my mother. This boy also had Balls Palsy... he even had been seeing another doctor for treatment but with no success. It took my mum 6 sessions and now completely healed.

Imo this rules out placebo affect. it also confirms that not every doctor is the same... technique and experience is very important and sometimes just natural talent.. ie. not everyone can be an artist, or musician etc... You can learn anything but it doesnt mean you will succeed or be great at it... your natural talent/ability limits you.

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yingying236

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Posted: Aug 31, 2007 - 10:31 PM

ok i lied im blatantly going to try and enforce my views on all the non believers despite it being hopeless. Im going to fight for this thread till the end!!!

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