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CoffeeHawk_0
Board Buddha
Joined: July 14, 2005
Posts: 14444
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 Posted:
Sep 20, 2007 - 01:53 PM |
 
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and no 'xie xie' for anyone's help.
It's like the gimps in my office complaining that I don't speak enough Chinese. I have helped with their emails, speaking, culture, even 'tutoring' so they can pass their English exams.
One day an especially crotchedly butthead whom I've know for 2 years walks up to me and says my Mandarin skills are poor. I looked him in the eye and said "name one word you have taught in me in 2 years".
The look on his face was priceless  |
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SPP
Rocker
Joined: Nov 08, 2006
Posts: 794
Status: Offline
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Sep 20, 2007 - 03:10 PM |
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Thank you, coffeehawh and all.
I still don't get it that 'should' as the past form of 'shall' can not be used in the tenses of past.
English really sucks. Stupid, awkward and incomplete as is any other human language. |
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SPP
Rocker
Joined: Nov 08, 2006
Posts: 794
Status: Offline
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Sep 20, 2007 - 04:54 PM |
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Is the sentence "I couldn't kill you yesterday" correct?
I couldn't kill you yesterday. (right) (It maybe means I was too kind.)
I couldn't have killed you yesterday. (right) (It maybe means you were too strong)
I should kill you yesterday. (supposedly wrong) (It maybe means you were in the situation that I intended to kill you but in the end I didn't)
I should have killed you yesterday. (right)( It maybe means although you were week but still I didn't succeed)
I don't see anything wrong with my logic?
I am retard? Am I crazy?I |
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leidelaohu
Wonder Wit
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 3781
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Sep 20, 2007 - 05:13 PM |
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| SPP wrote: |
| I should kill you yesterday. (supposedly wrong) |
Not supposedly, definitely. 'I should kill' is present tense. Yesterday is past. Can't do anything in the present when the occasion has already gone by.
There is no weakness, kindness, or strength implied in any of those sentences. Please stop with the imagination ! You sound like my Assistant. One trouble with Chinese is that too many things are inferred. Generally, in English if we want to say something, we do. If we don't say it then we probably don't mean it. So don't be imagining deeper meanings where none are intended. Or if you have more to say, write another sentence instead of expecting us to guess at it ! |
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leidelaohu
Wonder Wit
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 3781
Status: Offline
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Sep 20, 2007 - 05:44 PM |
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| SPP wrote: |
| Can you tell me why people always use the 'should have' form, which indicates 'having succeeded in doing something', to transfer this meaning, which is so confusing that it even doesn't make sense to me. |
No, it doesn't mean "having succeeded in doing something" at all. 'Should have' actually indicates that you did not succeed in doing whatever. Maybe that is part of your confusion ?
"Should have" always implies "but didn't", otherwise you would just say "I killed you yesterday." I wanted to, I really did, but I didn't do it so now I must say, "I should have bornked that horny girl with the super boobs .. but alas, did not get a chance."  |
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p1atl10
Board Royalty
Joined: Mar 18, 2005
Posts: 6293
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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Sep 20, 2007 - 06:37 PM |
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^Should it not be:
You should try it, when I say you may.
?? |
_________________
Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital ingredient in beer.....Dave Barry |
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leidelaohu
Wonder Wit
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 3781
Status: Offline
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Sep 20, 2007 - 07:48 PM |
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| p1atl10 wrote: |
Should it not be:
You should try it when I say you may. |
I wouldn't think so .... your second "should" implies coercion - as in "you should do this" (because I think you ought to, not because you want to) but "may" implies that the other person desires to do so - "mother, may I have a cookie ?" The conflict between desire and compulsion makes that sentence feel schizophrenic  Tense-wise it's okay tho ...
(the first 'should' borders on the subjunctive and we ain't a-gonna go there !)
SPP, you should learn to diagram sentences. It will help a lot with figuring out why things go together the way they do. Google.com in English for "diagram sentence" |
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CoffeeHawk_0
Board Buddha
Joined: July 14, 2005
Posts: 14444
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Sep 20, 2007 - 08:03 PM |
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| Quote: |
| I still don't get it that 'should' as the past form of 'shall' can not be used in the tenses of past. |
I'm not sure is 'should' really has a tense, but think of it this way:
present/future tense = should
past tense = should have
Shall:
present/future tense = shall, shall not, shan't
"past" tense = mei you
"Shall" is not commonly used any more in American English. It sounds too 'proper', old fashioned, and uppity/pretenscious. It is also more like a command, and a command can't be given in the past.
'Should' is more flexible. |
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p1atl10
Board Royalty
Joined: Mar 18, 2005
Posts: 6293
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Sep 20, 2007 - 09:47 PM |
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^ I shall have to remember that in the future!
Xie Xie |
_________________
Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital ingredient in beer.....Dave Barry |
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p1atl10
Board Royalty
Joined: Mar 18, 2005
Posts: 6293
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Sep 20, 2007 - 09:48 PM |
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^^ Guess I am too old fashioned ye scurvey whelp. |
_________________
Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital ingredient in beer.....Dave Barry |
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leidelaohu
Wonder Wit
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 3781
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Sep 20, 2007 - 10:29 PM |
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| CoffeeHawk_0 wrote: |
Shall:
present/future tense = shall, shall not, shan't
"past" tense = mei you |
Could, tho I wouldn't even attempt to diagram this puppy -
[Baptist preacher voice]
"Tho he shall have handled the privates of every thirteen year old boy in the village, yea he was still a saint in the eyes of the Republican Party." |
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SPP
Rocker
Joined: Nov 08, 2006
Posts: 794
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Sep 20, 2007 - 11:06 PM |
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| Quote: |
| Should have' actually indicates that you did not succeed in doing whatever. |
Yes, that's my confusion. leidelaohuOffline you are really helpful. |
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SPP
Rocker
Joined: Nov 08, 2006
Posts: 794
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Sep 20, 2007 - 11:09 PM |
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For CoffeeHawk_0,
Not pretenscious but pretentious.
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p1atl10
Board Royalty
Joined: Mar 18, 2005
Posts: 6293
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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Sep 21, 2007 - 07:37 AM |
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^ What do you expect from a Pirate? |
_________________
Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital ingredient in beer.....Dave Barry |
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CoffeeHawk_0
Board Buddha
Joined: July 14, 2005
Posts: 14444
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Sep 21, 2007 - 07:46 AM |
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SPP
Rocker
Joined: Nov 08, 2006
Posts: 794
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Sep 21, 2007 - 09:39 AM |
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the fact:
You tried to kill me but didn't succeed. But you don't want to kill me now.
I am confused so asking you:
<1>Why would you try to kill me?
<2>Why would you have tried to kill me?
Which one is correct? Or widely used?
---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------
the fact:
You tried to kill me but didn't succeed. And you still want to kill me now.
I am confused so asking you:
<1>Why would you try to kill me?
<2>Why would you have tried to kill me?
Which one is correct? Or widely used?
---------------------------------------------------------------------- -----
the fact:
You tried to kill me but didn't succeed. But I don't know if you still want to kill me now.
I am confused so asking you:
<1>Why would you try to kill me?
<2>Why would you have tried to kill me?
Which one is correct? Or widely used? |
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leidelaohu
Wonder Wit
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 3781
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Sep 21, 2007 - 10:24 AM |
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| SPP wrote: |
the fact:
You tried to kill me but didn't succeed. But you don't want to kill me now.
I am confused so asking you:
<1>Why would you try to kill me?
<2>Why would you have tried to kill me?
Which one is correct? Or widely used?
snip >> |
In all three cases either answer would be correct. The difference between them is one of time and completion. So either would be fine to use but they would have slightly different meanings. (1) is "why would you want to kill me" in general terms, (2) is "why did you want to kill me" at a certain point in the past.
The second half of your examples has no bearing on the replies. Must be a language thing - both you and the Assistant just have to add in a bunch of irrelevant stuff !! 
Your first example is a general statement - "I am so nice, why would anyone want to hurt me ?" There is no time assigned to it. In fact, it could be a rhetorical question - that is, a question to which you do not expect or want an answer
"Last week I wanted to bash your head in with a rock !"
"Why would you try to kill me ? I'm so sweet and kind !"
"Beause you mentioned those new red shoes in front of my Mum. She thinks I sam saving my money for college."
or
"Next month my friends are all going to come over and blow your brains out."
"Why do you want to kill me ? Why do you dislike me so much?"
"Yesterday you called me a stupid dogdick in front of Jose. Now everyone is laughing at me behind my back."
The first - "Why would you try to kill me ?" could be any time - yesterday, tomorrow, a week from Thursday.
The second choice is past perfect - past tense but also finished, similar to "le" in Chinese. "have tried" says that the person wanted to then but no longer wishes to kill you. She did at that time but her desire to see you burn in agony is now finished. You are safe !
hth |
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SPP
Rocker
Joined: Nov 08, 2006
Posts: 794
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Sep 21, 2007 - 11:22 AM |
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Leidelaohu. Thanks for your time and you are so precise and right on the point.
My real intention is to questioin why this rule isn't used in the case of "should". If "could" and "could have" can both be acceptable in my example, why it isn't so when we are using "should" and "should have". As far as I can see, "should" is in the same category with "could". It is the inconsistance/inconsistancy that really bugs me.
By the way, how can you tell a dog's dick is smart or stupid?
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leidelaohu
Wonder Wit
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 3781
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Sep 21, 2007 - 07:04 PM |
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| SPP wrote: |
| As far as I can see, "should" is in the same category with "could". It is the inconsistance/inconsistancy that really bugs me. |
Should would not be totally wrong in those examples but almost always 'should' implies some sort of compulsion. "You should eat your greens" is a case where one person is saying you really ought to do something.
'Could' is more a case where something is possible but there is no compulsion. Something like "We could have a salad since it's too hot for pizza, how is that ?"
In the olde dayes, before we were born, people did use "should" more interchangeably with would. Middle English is a lot different from Modern English, so if you try to read Chaucer don't be surprised to see things that don't follow modern rules.
| Quote: |
| By the way, how can you tell a dog's dick is smart or stupid? |
Good question Either way, calling someone a dogdick is probably not a compliment !
I'll always remember that expression from a time when a friend and I engaged in a tug-of-war with some policemen over his Beezer. When Dave started telling one of the cops he was "red on the head like the dick on a dog" I knew it was going to be a long night |
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SPP
Rocker
Joined: Nov 08, 2006
Posts: 794
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Sep 21, 2007 - 08:56 PM |
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Interesting.
Now I can see my problem more clearly. In modern english we don't consider "should" as the past form of "shall" anymore, and we use "should" just like the way we use "must".
XIE XIE AGAIN.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is another confusion:
If it wasn't for you, I wouldn't have achieve my goal.
If it hadn't for you, I wouldn't have achieve my goal.
Which one is correct?
----------------------------------
If you hadn't help me, I wouldn't have achieved my goal.
If you didn't help me, I wouldn't have achieved my goal.
Which one is correct?
 |
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leidelaohu
Wonder Wit
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 3781
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Sep 22, 2007 - 03:27 AM |
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| SPP wrote: |
| ... we use "should" just like the way we use "must". |
Almost, but it's not quite as strong. 'Must' means you absolutely have to. You must breathe, you must eat, you must poop. 'Should' means you damned well better but God isn't going to force you. "You should eat better food or you will be likely to have a heart attack."
| Quote: |
If it wasn't for you, I wouldn't have achieve my goal.
If it hadn't for you, I wouldn't have achieve my goal.
Which one is correct? |
Neither
First off, your introductory phrase : in that particular case you need to use the conditional tense. When you have an "if" you have a precondition. 'Were' is the conditional form of 'to be'. Just remember "if I were ... " People use this wrong so often that sometimes the correct sentence sounds incorrect "If he were a lot smarter ..." Sounds bad, hunh ? But it is correct.
[Hmm. Now that I think about it this might be subjunctive, not conditional. Luckily the two use the same verb form so we can sneak by ... any English teachers around here ?]
again, in the second half of the sentence you need to use the past perfect tense. You achieved the goal therefore it is past, yes ? And it is a completed thing, same as 'le', therefore first person singular past perfect. "I would not have achieved ..." is correct.
If it were not for you, I would not have achieved my goal.
(If you like, you may use 'could' in place of 'would' in that sentence to make an even stronger statement. "Would not" might be just because I am too lazy, but "could not" implies that without your help the goal would have been impossible.)
The second one you might write a couple different ways to give slightly different feelings to the sentence:
"If it were not for you ..." (conditional again, implies this is occurring even into the present)
or
"if it hadn't been for you ..." (implies that the particular situation is over now)
Past perfect, the 'it' would refer to some help or action that is now completed - over, done, finished, le. Your action caused something to happen but that action is completed now
" ... I wouldn't have achieved my goal." Must be past perfect. It's also a finished action. You did achieve the goal, dui ma ? therefore it must be in the past (it's already happened) and it must be perfective (you can only achieve something once, unless you are a lucky girl with a lot of stamina.)
If it hadn't been for you, I wouldn't have achieved my goal.
| Quote: |
If you hadn't help me, I wouldn't have achieved my goal.
If you didn't help me, I wouldn't have achieved my goal.
Which one is correct? |
The first one is almost correct. Change the tense of "help" to put it in the past perfect (had helped) and it would be a-okay. Achieving the goal is in the past since you already did it and it's completed because the goals was achieved so -- past, and perfect.
Therefore -
If you hadn't helped me, then I would not have achieved my goal.
'Didn't' is just wrong in that other sentence. Do they teach verb conjugation ? (Not criticizing, just curious.) The 2nd person past perfect of help is 'had helped'.
Sorry for the way English is, but in fact this is no harder than remembering which g-d measure word goes with which noun. Revenge is sweet
If you can, take a couple semesters of Latin. It will give you a better understanding of verb tenses and be useful for almost any European language. |
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SPP
Rocker
Joined: Nov 08, 2006
Posts: 794
Status: Offline
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 Posted:
Sep 22, 2007 - 09:52 AM |
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Oh leidelaohu, you should be an English teacher.
It's a compliment. 
My problem isn't that I don't know how to use them the way they are supposed to be used.
My problem is I've seen and heard people so many times just use the so-called wrong ways and no one complain about them as if they were just the way they are.
 |
Last edited by SPP on Sep 22, 2007 - 10:13 AM; edited 1 time in total |
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SPP
Rocker
Joined: Nov 08, 2006
Posts: 794
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Sep 22, 2007 - 10:12 AM |
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Your action caused something to happen but that action is completed now.
Why did you not use a comma before "but"?
"Would not" might be just because I am too lazy, but "could not" implies that without your help the goal would have been impossible.
Why did you use a comma before "but" now?
When to use a comma anyway?
--------------------------------
If you are hungry, eat some food. (not subjunctive but conditional) |
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leidelaohu
Wonder Wit
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 3781
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Sep 22, 2007 - 11:25 AM |
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| SPP wrote: |
'Your action caused something to happen but that action is completed now.'
Why did you not use a comma before "but"? |
Didn't need one. Replace a comma with 'and' to see if it is needed. If it isn't necessary, get rid of it
| Quote: |
"Would not" might be just because I am too lazy, but "could not" implies that without your help the goal would have been impossible.
Why did you use a comma before "but" now? |
Normally you would not do that but in this case I was trying to emphasize the differences between the two clauses. It's not correct. Sometimes it's okay to do things which are not exactly kosher if you have a special reason. You are right, if this were an English class the teacher would put a red circle around that comma
| Quote: |
| When to use a comma anyway? |
As infrequently as possible Remember that, like Chinese, written English is not the same as spoken English. People writing in a forum like this are being very informal. Personal letters are informal. When you write informally you tend to imitate spoken speech with a lot more commas (for pauses), slang and poor grammar than you would in, say, a letter to Jack Welch complaining about his shitty underhanded slimy crap company.
Best way to deal with commas is to go through the sentence and see how many you can remove. If you can remove it and the sentence still makes sense, then ditch that thing ! [One common rule of thumb is that if an introductory phrase is more than seven words long, as in the previous sentence, then use a comma. With shorter ones avoid the comma.]
Comma rules are not as hard and fast as verb tense rules ...
If I were god all those high-handed imperialist bastards at amcham would develop scabies every time they pulled another disgusting stunt.
If, were, would and no commas |
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SPP
Rocker
Joined: Nov 08, 2006
Posts: 794
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Sep 22, 2007 - 01:03 PM |
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I would remember what you have taught me.
Long live free English lessons. |
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