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Michael
Moderator
Joined: Mar 22, 2002
Posts: 5291
Status: Offline
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  Posted:
Dec 26, 2007 - 11:40 AM |
 
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| Post subject: Salary Expectations - Forum Discussions |
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kumlong
LoopKicker
Joined: Oct 18, 2007
Posts: 817
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Jan 11, 2008 - 08:23 AM |
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| Post subject: Should foreigners get paid more than locals (split) |
(THIS THREAD WAS SPLIT FROM THE MISERABLE LIFE THREAD AS THE TOPIC WARRANTED ITS OWN THREAD_ apologies if the split was not so perfect. -- Moderator)
I am finding this very ironic. in a recent thread, i get the idea that yinlin and chingis do think that cny3000 a month is more than enough to survive, for their local employee. so why is there so many people now saying that cny3000 is not enough. i hope that Yinlin can take a note of this and do bump up his employees' salary to a more appropriate level. |
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JD
Ranter
Joined: May 14, 2003
Posts: 559
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Jan 11, 2008 - 10:07 AM |
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| kumlong wrote: |
| ... so why is there so many people now saying that cny3000 is not enough. .... |
Expected standard of living makes it...
The lowest salary I am paying is the said 3000, the highest being somewhere around 10 kRmb. The 3000 -tier lives comfortably in a small apartment (and pays their mortgages) and the 10 k -tier in a larger apartment, have a car and is even able to save from the earnings. (this assumes a couple earning).
I'm spending 30000 Rmb/month minimim for comfortable living... no doubt, 3000 will not make you die, but then again, no downtown apartment, no car, no western groceries, no weekly (/daily) outings @hengsan lu... |
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Oomomo
Talker
Joined: Dec 17, 2007
Posts: 105
Status: Offline
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Jan 11, 2008 - 12:45 PM |
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I have spoken to various people who earn salaries from RMB1,500 to RMB10,000. Let me just share with you how they use their money:
Waitress (RMB1,500 per month)
Housing: RMB200 (5-sharing, no air-con, stacked beds, common toilet, place is run down, dark and dirty - i visited her apartment)
Food: on the restaurant
Transport: walking
Entertainment: working from 10 am to 12 pm - 1 day off each week, entertainment is window shopping and occassionally a meal at a very cheap local restaurant
Clothing - Qipu road, RMB50 per piece is considered a luxury
(Somehow, this group of people will spend money on mobile phone)
(She saves up a bit each month so that she can go back to her home town for New Year and give some money to her parents and folks at home - very important) |
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Oomomo
Talker
Joined: Dec 17, 2007
Posts: 105
Status: Offline
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Jan 11, 2008 - 12:48 PM |
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Ayi (household income = RMB10,000 per month)
Housing mortgage=RMB3,000
Utilities = RMB1,000
Food = RMB1,000
Transport (cycling) with occassional bus (no taxi) - RMB300
Entertainment = RMB500 (usually a family meal outside)
Clothings, groceries and other household items = RMB2,000
(This group of people will invest money on stocks and the remaining will be saved) |
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Oomomo
Talker
Joined: Dec 17, 2007
Posts: 105
Status: Offline
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Jan 11, 2008 - 12:49 PM |
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Please do not bs me with RMB3,000 is enough for an expat, yes i have the right attitude etc etc.
It is simply not enough. RMB10,000 is the bare mininum for an expat in Shanghai. |
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kumlong
LoopKicker
Joined: Oct 18, 2007
Posts: 817
Status: Offline
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Jan 11, 2008 - 12:49 PM |
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ayi gets 10000 a month? that is more than my IT guy and my IT guy has a masters degree! |
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kumlong
LoopKicker
Joined: Oct 18, 2007
Posts: 817
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Jan 11, 2008 - 12:51 PM |
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that is exactly my point ... if we find it hard to survive on less than 10k a month, why do some employers among us still insist on paying sub-minimal wage to a local? isnt that a bit racist? |
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boredengineer
SuperStar
Joined: Oct 17, 2007
Posts: 1344
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Jan 11, 2008 - 01:11 PM |
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Why would they pay more than the market suggests? I know it doesn't seem fair but what can you do? Cheap labor is the reason companies are in china. They don't come here and decide to pay their employees more than everyone else just to be nice. |
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kumlong
LoopKicker
Joined: Oct 18, 2007
Posts: 817
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Jan 11, 2008 - 01:24 PM |
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as i said its a demand and supply situation. you can go back to yinlin's thread and check. the point is if you do not pay to match up, then you need to be ready to lose your staff. i think this goes for both foreign and local |
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chingiskhan
StreetBeater
Joined: Apr 24, 2007
Posts: 2244
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Jan 11, 2008 - 01:33 PM |
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| szwliew wrote: |
| Why would they pay more than the market suggests? I know it doesn't seem fair but what can you do? Cheap labor is the reason companies are in china. They don't come here and decide to pay their employees more than everyone else just to be nice. |
There's absolutely no point in trying to have a discussion with this person - he simply doesn't get it. I'm amazed someone who is educated in the finance field and lives here has such a fundamental lack of understanding about income disparities across different countries.
To suggest paying them 3k per month is racist is absurd when there are thousands of graduates who would kill to get that sort of income. We don't just make up these salaries. We consult our local finance and HR people to find out what is the MARKET rate for that level and we decide accordingly. I've received several CVs this month from graduates where they state their expected salary is 2500 rmb or 3000 rmb so I know it's not sub-minimal.
Don't waste time trying to explain it - after several weeks he's still spouting the same crap about how it's racist and cruel to pay 3k to local graduates as a starting salary.
And do I REALLY need to explain why I pay expats higher salaries without it being racist? Surely even a dimwit can understand that. |
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kumlong
LoopKicker
Joined: Oct 18, 2007
Posts: 817
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Jan 11, 2008 - 01:38 PM |
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mate, can you firstly calm down. all i am trying to say is that its ironical if not illogical for you to claim that cny3000 is more than enough to survive for a local but not a foreigner. can you see my point? |
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yinlin
Rocker
Joined: Feb 26, 2007
Posts: 643
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Jan 11, 2008 - 01:38 PM |
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haha, Kumlong. Let's not continue whether RMB 3,000 is survivable in Shanghai and your pay is closely connected with how much you can earn for the company or how much your value to your employer is.
You are comparing the life between experienced oversea employees with junior local staffs, and how do you expect to convince me? LOL
FYI, the average pay for employees at shanghai in 2007 is 2470 if i am not wrong. And none of my staffs is getting lesser than the amount (besides an uni student currently doing attachement) also i pay better than most of my competitors, so i think i am fine with the payscale. |
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yinlin
Rocker
Joined: Feb 26, 2007
Posts: 643
Status: Offline
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Jan 11, 2008 - 01:40 PM |
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Haha, i will continue to bash you after my meeting, enjoy your day Kumlong. |
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kumlong
LoopKicker
Joined: Oct 18, 2007
Posts: 817
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Jan 11, 2008 - 01:43 PM |
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hi yinlin. its ok to bash me. as i said, this is only a discussion and there is no right or wrong answer. at the end of the day we dont even know who each other is!
anyway all i am trying to say is that if i want to recruit talented staff i would pay up. its that simple |
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kumlong
LoopKicker
Joined: Oct 18, 2007
Posts: 817
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Jan 11, 2008 - 01:47 PM |
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also let me give you the following case: you have 2 staff: one from hk and one from shanghai. the local gets cny10,000 a month. the hongkonger gets cny50,000 a month. both are working and doing the same thing in shanghai. do you think this is a fair situation? what do you think is likely to happen within the next 2yr? |
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chingiskhan
StreetBeater
Joined: Apr 24, 2007
Posts: 2244
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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Jan 11, 2008 - 01:54 PM |
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You've written it twice so I thought I should point out the word is ironic not ironical.
I'm afraid I won't bother explaining why an expat needs more than a local - if you really do need someone to explain this then talk to any multinational HR director and he can help you to understand why or anyone that possesses some basic common sense. |
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kumlong
LoopKicker
Joined: Oct 18, 2007
Posts: 817
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Jan 11, 2008 - 01:57 PM |
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and chingis, yes you do need to explain why foreigners should get a higher salary simply because they are foreigners, under a scenario of equal capability. perhaps in your current situation you may not see such a situation since the capability is not the same btw foreign and local staff.
but in other industries, you pay a person according to what they are capable of, not where they are from. what you push for is simply a colonial phenomenon. |
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kumlong
LoopKicker
Joined: Oct 18, 2007
Posts: 817
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Jan 11, 2008 - 01:58 PM |
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so you are telling me that 2 person of the same capability should get different salary simply because they are of different nationality? |
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mrpango
Low Seater
Joined: Jan 26, 2007
Posts: 3274
Status: Offline
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Jan 11, 2008 - 01:59 PM |
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What in China is actually fair?
I don't think you understand China.
Its not as simple as 'pay up to get talented staff'. Lots of the top graduates from Peking Uni may still end up with salaries that aren't ideal, due to company policy or something crap like that.
Also, salary is supposed to be a confidential matter.
Local people also tend to have their own house (living with mum, dad, etc), and they also get a housing fund which puts away money every month. |
_________________
Well, may as well start a blog http://www.sinocracy.com/ - click at your leisure! |
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kumlong
LoopKicker
Joined: Oct 18, 2007
Posts: 817
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Jan 11, 2008 - 02:01 PM |
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so u are for the idea of paying someone according to their skin color, china or otherwise? |
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Oomomo
Talker
Joined: Dec 17, 2007
Posts: 105
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Jan 11, 2008 - 02:03 PM |
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| kumlong wrote: |
| that is exactly my point ... if we find it hard to survive on less than 10k a month, why do some employers among us still insist on paying sub-minimal wage to a local? isnt that a bit racist? |
Ayi's household income. She makes about RMB1500 by working for 3 families. Her only son brings in about RMB6000. Her husband makes up the rest. |
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mrpango
Low Seater
Joined: Jan 26, 2007
Posts: 3274
Status: Offline
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Jan 11, 2008 - 02:06 PM |
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Its not the skin colour, its the passport. |
_________________
Well, may as well start a blog http://www.sinocracy.com/ - click at your leisure! |
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kumlong
LoopKicker
Joined: Oct 18, 2007
Posts: 817
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Jan 11, 2008 - 02:15 PM |
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personally i have experienced working along side gwai los in both spore and hk and for years i could not understand why a gwai lo is paid more when a local is just as capable of doing the same job.
if you look at hk and spore today, that phenomenon of gwai los getting a higher salary simply because of his passport is gone. its a case of economics |
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mrpango
Low Seater
Joined: Jan 26, 2007
Posts: 3274
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Jan 11, 2008 - 02:21 PM |
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but this is China, not HK or S'pore |
_________________
Well, may as well start a blog http://www.sinocracy.com/ - click at your leisure! |
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