| Author |
Message |
DesertSpider
Post Roaster
Joined: Jan 19, 2007
Posts: 4417
Location: SHANGHAI, CHINA
|
 Posted:
Dec 29, 2007 - 05:33 PM |
 
|
| Post subject: Amorality and Chinese culture / society... |
Do you think 'on average' that Chinese culture is amoral. Not necessarily intentionally good or bad, just largely indifferent and a byproduct of their environment and life influences (extreme scarcity of resources and over abundant population) ?
I'm curious whether people here think that this is more common and an indication closer to the norm than just trends....
Thoughts ? |
_________________
| wrote: |
| I'm looking good, got a luscious v of hair going through my chest pubes down to my ball fro. |
|
|
|
|
sbergman
Veejay
Joined: Sep 12, 2007
Posts: 2167
Status: Online!
|
| Posted:
Dec 29, 2007 - 06:09 PM |
|
|
My students tell me that China is trying to find a new morality. Confucianism was repudiated by the Maoists, Maoism was repudiated by the Dengists, Deng didn't really provide much in the way of a moral code. I think that among the educated and well-off, there is currently a searching for a morality. A return to Confucianism flies in the face of meritocracy and gender equality, things that the elites aren't willing to give up. For better or worse, I predict that the next big growth industry in China will be religion and Christianity (with its entertaining rituals, fun holidays, and opportunities for social networking) may emerge as the industry leader. |
Last edited by sbergman on Dec 30, 2007 - 05:16 PM; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
|
DesertSpider
Post Roaster
Joined: Jan 19, 2007
Posts: 4417
Location: SHANGHAI, CHINA
|
| Posted:
Dec 29, 2007 - 07:22 PM |
|
|
In that case Catholicism would do well then... |
_________________
| wrote: |
| I'm looking good, got a luscious v of hair going through my chest pubes down to my ball fro. |
|
|
|
|
|
sbergman
Veejay
Joined: Sep 12, 2007
Posts: 2167
Status: Online!
|
| Posted:
Dec 30, 2007 - 09:53 AM |
|
|
The Catholic priesthood might be a good solution to all the extra males in the Chinese population... but the church's stance on family-planning would be devastating and the allegiance to the Pope keeps the Roman Catholic Church constantly under fire here. I think, in the end, it's going to be some sort of homegrown Protestantism with "Chinese characteristics". |
|
|
|
|
|
leidelaohu
Wonder Wit
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 3782
Status: Online!
|
| Posted:
Dec 30, 2007 - 11:37 AM |
|
|
| sbergman wrote: |
| For better or worse, I predict that the next big growth industry in China will be religion and Christianity... |
I just hope to god you are wrong ! Monotheistic religions are the bane of the world 
Spidy - China is not amoral. It's just that Confucian morals are so alien to western thought. |
|
|
|
|
|
DesertSpider
Post Roaster
Joined: Jan 19, 2007
Posts: 4417
Location: SHANGHAI, CHINA
|
| Posted:
Dec 30, 2007 - 11:48 AM |
|
|
Confucianism = lie, steal and cheat ?
I love it when you call someone out here about something that is definitely 'not right' and their immediate answer is: "Oh, I'm not religious..."
As if that is a perfectly fine justification for the action. And what is even more shocking is that the person that says that is dead serious and doesn't think twice about it. |
_________________
| wrote: |
| I'm looking good, got a luscious v of hair going through my chest pubes down to my ball fro. |
|
|
|
|
|
leidelaohu
Wonder Wit
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 3782
Status: Online!
|
| Posted:
Dec 30, 2007 - 12:58 PM |
|
|
| DesertSpider wrote: |
| Confucianism = lie, steal and cheat ? |
Yup. If it is for the benefit of The Family anything is approved. In fact, turning in a family member who is a serial killer would be seriously frowned upon. You could best compare Confucianism to the mobster mentality or the Shrub's Washington.
Perhaps it did not start out that way but that's where it ended up. Those people blatting on in the press about how cute it is that China is re-finding Confucianism are totally out of touch with reality. |
|
|
|
|
|
EnnesX
Reacher
Joined: Aug 03, 2007
Posts: 206
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Dec 30, 2007 - 10:58 PM |
|
|
What a great topic. I've thought about this many times on my own, so without digging myself in too deep I would like to thank DesertSpider.
Personally, I think the Chinese are already at where morality is heading towards in the western world -- a system of moral relativism where people begin to appoint themselves as the determiners of right and wrong. As a Christian I find it troubling, but keeping with my intent to keep me from inserting too much of myself in this post this is just where I think Chinese morality is at right now. |
|
|
|
|
CoffeeHawk_0
Board Buddha
Joined: July 14, 2005
Posts: 14444
|
| Posted:
Dec 30, 2007 - 11:16 PM |
|
|
does China need morals? Morals are subject to interpretation; they vary regionally. Would a strong (good) ethical code be enough? Is China heading towards western morals or are they advancing away from them? Is the west on a moral descent or has reason and ethics become the driving force? Good ethics don't vary, a 'good' moral code does depending on who is telling you what your morals should be.
I'm just thinking out loud, it's a deep subject, |
|
|
 |
|
hc
Post Roaster
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 4545
|
| Posted:
Dec 31, 2007 - 12:09 AM |
|
|
Spidy, you should read some chapters of a seminal book called My Country My People, written by a Chinese guy called Lin YuTang in the late 1930s (I have extra copies in case you cant find it).
He explains this stuff in detail and Leide's answer is in the right direction, and sbergman is also very right in her assessment of Maoists and Dengists in regard to Confucianism/morals.
My opinion based on what I've read on the topic:
Confucianism more than neighboring countries Korea and Japan has left a very, very deep impact in Chinese culture. Confucianism has values that compared to Western values are difficult to understand.
One of these values like tiger pointed out is the importance of the family. The "social unit" is not "society" as a whole, but the family. The author has an interesting quote that says: "to a Chinese man the family and close friends are a castle where everyone inside is protected but where everything outside is sheer loot!". Another powerful quote: "A Chinese man regards someone out there on the street the same way an English man regards someone not from their race in a colony" (quotes retrieved from memory so they might be slightly different).
A lot of this happens because of the 5 relationships that defined Confucius way of understanding society:
(a) father and son (loving / reverential)
(b) elder brother and younger brother (gentle / respectful)
(c) husband and wife (good / listening)
(d) older friend and younger friend (considerate / deferential)
(e) ruler and subject (benevolent / loyal)
http://philosophy.lander.edu/oriental/main.html
You see? No relationship between two strangers or two citizens.
Also, nepotism and corruption, throughout China's dynastic period and beyond is rampant and accepted as after all you are helping da family.
If not mistaken there is even a fable from Mencius approving of a man who lied to the authorities about his dad being a sheep robber because family comes first, regardless.
So, I'd say the "lie, steal, cheat" is pretty much related to not having you as part of the close family. Of course in the business world that can create a SEVERE problem for companies run with this mentality, but that's a whole different discussion.
This being said, I think Mao was pretty brave to be willing to eradicate society of its Confucianist influences, something not to be taken up lightly, and something that obviously few people are willing to give him credit for. Actually nobody wants to give him credit for anything, which is a convenient way to spot biases. |
_________________
Click here to read the latest retarded PM Natalie sent me. Let's make her lose face and FINALLY leave this site. |
|
 |
|
dsugg
Barker
Joined: Nov 18, 2007
Posts: 186
Location: Shanghai or Toronto
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Dec 31, 2007 - 02:15 AM |
|
|
HC - very interesting. I have always thought the Chinese were the worst team players in the world while a short boat ride away the Japanese are perhaps the best. I think of their respective military histories as a good example and employee loyalty (Japan)/ disloyalty (China) as another . I have wondered why the difference and your Confusianism points would help explain it. |
|
|
|
|
|
Kiwi
Post Boaster
Joined: May 07, 2003
Posts: 4763
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Dec 31, 2007 - 07:58 AM |
|
|
Except that Japan is also heavily Confucian, so I'm not sure Confucianism really does explain the differences between Japan and China very well.
And Korea is massively Confucian, maybe even more so than China. |
_________________
[offensive signature removed by ADMIN] |
|
|
|
|
shanghaiceltic
Board Royalty
Joined: Sep 20, 2005
Posts: 7619
Location: Perth WA
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Dec 31, 2007 - 08:12 AM |
|
|
When I lived in Japan I once had relationships in Japan described as circles and I think it applies even more to China.
If you are inside that circle then you are part of the relationship. The circle can be family or it can be work. Inside the circle you are relatively protected by the other members. If something happens outside then it is no concern of yours unless it impacts on your circle.
When you see a traffic accident you just see people gawping at the sight. Few people will offer help as they feel it has nothing to do with them apart from providing an entertainment spectacle. |
_________________
I have parrallel bars at home, one for gin and one for whiskey |
|
|
|
|
CoffeeHawk_0
Board Buddha
Joined: July 14, 2005
Posts: 14444
|
| Posted:
Dec 31, 2007 - 09:28 AM |
|
|
It is interesting that the press will bash the US for forcing it's morality on the world and then bash China for being amoral. That's the problem with morals, they vary. Ethics on the other hand, if taken to their pinacle, are universal.
A good example is abortion. Where it is legal, it is medically ethical to perform it. In the same society some people will find it amoral. Their morality then discriminates against the woman's right to choose. Homosexuality is another example. Ethically many places say you can not discriminate, but some people's morals suggest otherwise.
Ethics are the group wide standards, morals are applied by individuals. Ethics are about what is 'good and bad', morals are about how you apply your ethical code. If you don't have ethics, morals are meaningless.
Ethics transcends local cultural and religious differences. In an integrated world ethics come first.
In Confucian teachings, morals and ethics are interwoven. It is possible that the excessively amoral Chinese society that we see as expats in large cities is a deviation from Confucious teachings not an example of it. In the west, an example would the be the 'hardcore' Christian that bombs an abortion clinic. The core of Confucian teachings is actually very similar to Christian teachings, but when taken too far or when the core is forgotten leads to the behaviors we don't like to see.
Confucian teachings are based on the 'being', the 'doing', and the 'ends'; an interwoven code of ethics and morals. My opinion is that expats tend to see a gross misinterpretation of 'the 'ends'. This is what we see when we rent an apartment, for example.
Ren2 - benevolence, charity, humanity, love, kindness. "Aì rén," "love others."
Yi4 - right conduct, morality, duty to one's neighbor, righteousness.
Li4 - profit, gain, advantage, but not a proper motive for actions affecting others. "The idea that profit is the source of temptation to do wrong is the Confucian ground of the later official disparagment of commerce and industry".
Yi4 and Li4 - "The gentleman (chün tzu) understands yì. The small man understands lì."
Li3 and Xiao4 - propriety, good manners, politeness, ceremony, worship, Xiào4 to honor one's parents, filial piety.
Yì4, Zhong1, Shu4 - doing one's best, conscientiousness, loyalty, reciprocity, altruism, consideration for others, "what you don't want yourself, don't do to others"
My opinion is that the money making parts of the rapidly growing China have grossly misinterpretted Li4 and Yi4 to justify greed the same way an Islamic or Christian terrorist uses their religious code to justify killing. |
|
|
|
|
|
hc
Post Roaster
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 4545
|
| Posted:
Dec 31, 2007 - 10:35 AM |
|
|
| Kiwi wrote: |
Except that Japan is also heavily Confucian, so I'm not sure Confucianism really does explain the differences between Japan and China very well.
And Korea is massively Confucian, maybe even more so than China. |
Really?
Interesting.
How do you "measure" who is more Confucian Kiwi? Any arguments that support this claim?
Confucianism took a while to reach Japan, and was from what I understand not the most desirable school of thought during the Meiji era.
Would any movement against Confucianism in either country have existed that didnt exist in China? |
_________________
Click here to read the latest retarded PM Natalie sent me. Let's make her lose face and FINALLY leave this site. |
|
|
|
|
TheDudeAbides
Rocker
Joined: June 21, 2006
Posts: 720
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Dec 31, 2007 - 11:02 AM |
|
|
It's interesting when you speak to Chinese what their opinion of the whole thing is. Many have no concept that they're perceived by westerners as perhaps being a bit rude, inconsiderate and indifferent to others, but rather consider themselves friendly, kind, warm hearted etc. Shows neither are on the same page whatsoever. Even Chinese who go abroad and have perhaps a more third-person perspective seem to differ greatly in their opinions of how Confucianism has impacted the Chinese way of life. |
|
|
|
|
|
Kiwi
Post Boaster
Joined: May 07, 2003
Posts: 4763
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Dec 31, 2007 - 11:27 AM |
|
|
Well I'm sort of talking out of my arse there. .
No idea how you'd really measure 'level of confucianism'.
However, I reckon modern Korea is pretty Confucian.
-If you go to Confucius' birthplace in Shangdong (Qufu) you should find that Koreans are easily the largest non-local tourist group. Korean signage all over the place. Korean friends of mine have told me Confucius is more revered in Korea than here.
- I'd say Koreans are far more education oriented than Chinese. They are totally obsessed with having their children tutored at home after school etc.
- Koreans are definitely more sexist than Chinese (at least among educated types - can't compare non-educated because I've never mixed with non-educated Koreans). In the absence of the father than oldest son can often practically be the head of the family. It goes beyond the 'spoilt kid' stuff you see in China. . . Korean mothers often seem almost afraid of their oldest son. Quite odd. . . And then of course girls are supposed to be virgins on marriage and so you have all this hymen reconstruction going on there. All Confucian stuff I think?
- Age seems far more important in Korea than China as a marker of status. Just going out drinking (at least for people my age and older) it is polite to pour wine for each other in a way that marks hierarchy (i.e. if I'm older than you I pour with one hand on the bottle and you receive with two hands touching your glass, and vice versa). This may be slightly old fashioned these days, but I've seen a young Korean throw chairs around in a rage when his classmate wouldn't play along. I never met Chinese people who were so into these little displays of hierarchy - except for gangsters maybe. Maybe this stuff isn't really Confucianism but I think it might be.
So I don't really know what I'm talking about here, but I'm open minded to the idea that China may not be the most 'Confucian' society in the world. I reckon that if you somehow 'measured it' you could well find Korea came out on top.
Overseas Chinese communities could also be more Confucian than those in China. Maybe?
I don't know enough about anti-Confucian movements to comment on that last part though. |
_________________
[offensive signature removed by ADMIN] |
|
|
|
|
sbergman
Veejay
Joined: Sep 12, 2007
Posts: 2167
Status: Online!
|
| Posted:
Dec 31, 2007 - 09:09 PM |
|
|
I taught English for Intel years ago. At the time they were doing very little production here but were doing a lot of indoctrination into the Intel philosophy. One of the doctrines was "Seeking a win-win solution". My students would parrot this back frequently. One day one of the more intelligent students took me aside and very quietly told me, "Teacher, don't tell anyone but this win-win thing, I don't believe it. If you win, I lose I don't see how there's any way around it." I've always wondered if that was one person's opinion or a window into a culture. |
Last edited by sbergman on Jan 01, 2008 - 10:16 AM; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
|
leidelaohu
Wonder Wit
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 3782
Status: Online!
|
| Posted:
Dec 31, 2007 - 09:19 PM |
|
|
^^ LOL. About a month ago I wrote to my Masters on the East Coast to, "Get this win-win crap out of your heads. We're not that naive in China." |
|
|
|
|
|
DesertSpider
Post Roaster
Joined: Jan 19, 2007
Posts: 4417
Location: SHANGHAI, CHINA
|
| Posted:
Jan 01, 2008 - 01:40 PM |
|
|
| sbergman wrote: |
| I taught English for Intel years ago. At the time they were doing very little production here but were doing a lot of indoctrination into the Intel philosophy. One of the doctrines was "Seeking a win-win solution". My students would parrot this back frequently. One day one of the more intelligent students took me aside and very quietly told me, "Teacher, don't tell anyone but this win-win thing, I don't believe it. If you win, I lose I don't see how there's any way around it." I've always wondered if that was one person's opinion or a window into a culture. |
Whole culture, 100% |
_________________
| wrote: |
| I'm looking good, got a luscious v of hair going through my chest pubes down to my ball fro. |
|
|
|
|
|
sbergman
Veejay
Joined: Sep 12, 2007
Posts: 2167
Status: Online!
|
| Posted:
Jan 01, 2008 - 09:22 PM |
|
|
Thanks to everyone who recommended My Country and My People. It's fascinating. Despite having been published in 1930, it sounds like to could have been written yesterday...in response to ShEx threads! |
|
|
|
|
|
hc
Post Roaster
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 4545
|
| Posted:
Jan 01, 2008 - 09:59 PM |
|
|
|
|
|
|
lucar
Board Royalty
Joined: July 05, 2004
Posts: 6265
Status: Offline
|
| Posted:
Jan 01, 2008 - 10:57 PM |
|
|
| EnnesX wrote: |
What a great topic. I've thought about this many times on my own, so without digging myself in too deep I would like to thank DesertSpider.
Personally, I think the Chinese are already at where morality is heading towards in the western world -- a system of moral relativism where people begin to appoint themselves as the determiners of right and wrong. As a Christian I find it troubling, but keeping with my intent to keep me from inserting too much of myself in this post this is just where I think Chinese morality is at right now. |
^Thanks god. I much prefer that to the direction the US is going in as a hyper-hypocritical neofascist Christian state straight out of Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale, where morality is bent to serve those deemed worthy (torture, stealing, killing, lying, cheating, etc.) and the rest of us (anyone not sharing the same belief system) is seen as deserving of being literally crushed by the army of Jesus until our blood will fill the streams and valleys of the world and suffer forever in eternal helfire. Hello?! Morals anyone? |
Last edited by lucar on Jan 01, 2008 - 11:04 PM; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
|
sbergman
Veejay
Joined: Sep 12, 2007
Posts: 2167
Status: Online!
|
| Posted:
Jan 01, 2008 - 11:03 PM |
|
|
|
|
|
|
hc
Post Roaster
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 4545
|
| Posted:
Jan 01, 2008 - 11:19 PM |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum FAQ
Search
Preferences
Watched Topics
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
