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yu888
Board Deity
Joined: Jan 25, 2003
Posts: 18042
Location: ZhongShanParkArea SH
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 Posted:
Apr 09, 2008 - 08:51 AM |
 
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| Post subject: Eastern vs. Western Education (Split) |
| CIA wrote: |
| I'm sure you can, but the real question you should be asking yourself is, 'why would you'? I think the 'cost' associated with "un-programming" them once you decided to leave here eclipses any up-front costs associated with a truly international education experience. Especially in the formidable / developmental years. I'd seriously think through what you're considering and take into consideration your long term aspirations for his future / higher education / etc. |
I am sure that opinion is based on either years of childraising expereince, or years of experience in "programming"? Having spoken to several educators about this, what I have been told about the similarities and dis-similarities in the education systems, especially at the primary school leves, doesnt jive with what you just wrote. |
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CIA
LoopKicker
Joined: Mar 23, 2008
Posts: 890
Location: Least Expect
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Apr 09, 2008 - 10:51 AM |
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^ Compare scientists, engineers, researchers, (i.e. anything technical here) with the west. R&D centers here fall much much shorter than R&D centers in Europe or the U.S. |
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dfoo
Post Roaster
Joined: Jan 19, 2005
Posts: 4140
Status: Offline
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Apr 09, 2008 - 01:12 PM |
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| CIA wrote: |
| ^ Compare scientists, engineers, researchers, (i.e. anything technical here) with the west. R&D centers here fall much much shorter than R&D centers in Europe or the U.S. |
Absolute crap. Top students from good universities (ie: beida) are just as good as their foreign trained students. |
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CIA
LoopKicker
Joined: Mar 23, 2008
Posts: 890
Location: Least Expect
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Apr 09, 2008 - 05:25 PM |
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| dfoo wrote: |
| CIA wrote: |
| ^ Compare scientists, engineers, researchers, (i.e. anything technical here) with the west. R&D centers here fall much much shorter than R&D centers in Europe or the U.S. |
Absolute crap. Top students from good universities (ie: beida) are just as good as their foreign trained students. |
You're dreaming and obviously not in a technical field. |
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| Every evening I died, and every evening I was born again, resurrected. |
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BONNIE
Veejay
Joined: June 17, 2005
Posts: 1909
Location: Amsterdam/Shanghai
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Apr 10, 2008 - 08:04 AM |
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CIA wrote -:
| Quote: |
dfoo wrote:
CIA wrote:
^ Compare scientists, engineers, researchers, (i.e. anything technical here) with the west. R&D centers here fall much much shorter than R&D centers in Europe or the U.S.
Absolute crap. Top students from good universities (ie: beida) are just as good as their foreign trained students.
You're dreaming and obviously not in a technical field.
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I have to side with dfoo on this one. I most certainly am in a technical field and speak from experience on both sides of the world. I find the engineers to be top class here but what is missing is management and scheduling ability.
I think that is the same failing in many professions here.
I think the discipline in local schools may be much more evident than in our home countries but I am not sure which is worse - too much or not enough ? |
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Portsmouth
Talker
Joined: Mar 26, 2007
Posts: 79
Location: Shanghai
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Apr 10, 2008 - 08:24 AM |
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Hi Bonnie,
Just curious - you said, "I find the engineers to be top class here but what is missing is management and scheduling ability. " What do you mean scheduling ability? Do you mean time management? Or ability to multitasking? Or project management skills?
Thanks! |
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BONNIE
Veejay
Joined: June 17, 2005
Posts: 1909
Location: Amsterdam/Shanghai
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Apr 10, 2008 - 08:37 AM |
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I mean they lack ability to schedule their projects and then stick to the schedule.
I have many engineers who work for me and they can't see past the present activity. They need someone to confirm what happens next. I think this is a left over from stricter days when individual thinking was not encouraged.
Their Project Management skills are poor since they are unable to manage their own engineering disciplines and are not highly interactive with the other disciplines required to effectively execute projects - in other words the mechanical guys don't speak to the piping guys, the electrical guys don't speak to the control systems guys.
I have found that many do not want the assume command - they would rather follow than lead. |
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CIA
LoopKicker
Joined: Mar 23, 2008
Posts: 890
Location: Least Expect
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| Posted:
Apr 10, 2008 - 10:00 AM |
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| BONNIE wrote: |
CIA wrote -:
| Quote: |
dfoo wrote:CIA wrote:
^ Compare scientists, engineers, researchers, (i.e. anything technical here) with the west. R&D centers here fall much much shorter than R&D centers in Europe or the U.S.
Absolute crap. Top students from good universities (ie: beida) are just as good as their foreign trained students.
You're dreaming and obviously not in a technical field.
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I have to side with dfoo on this one.
Point 1: I most certainly am in a technical field and speak from experience on both sides of the world. |
Care to expand on this? What is it, technical graphics? I'm fairly certain that there are quite a few "technical minds" on this board that have some serious experience in multiple fields that would strongly disagree with you and have also "been here" and "been there" as well. What industries are you specifically referring to?
| BONNIE wrote: |
Point 2: I find the engineers to be top class here but what is missing is management and scheduling ability.
I think that is the same failing in many professions here.
I think the discipline in local schools may be much more evident than in our home countries but I am not sure which is worse - too much or not enough ? |
If you call root memorization and copying "Top Class Engineering", then you're spot on. Everything else, (which comprises quite a lot), is nothing short of disastrous.
Tell me this: who leads the true R&D centers here? Is it the Europeans and the Americans, or the local 'top class'? Do you see countless streams (let alone any) of "Eastern" engineers or engineering managers getting off planes working abroad in the countries that are technical powerhouses? How about Eastern engineers expat'ing to other countries that are NOT third world?
I'm 99.99999999999999% certain that you're wrong in your "assumptions" here.
| BONNIE wrote: |
| I mean they lack ability to schedule their projects and then stick to the schedule. I have many engineers who work for me and they can't see past the present activity. They need someone to confirm what happens next. I think this is a left over from stricter days when individual thinking was not encouraged. Their Project Management skills are poor since they are unable to manage their own engineering disciplines and are not highly interactive with the other disciplines required to effectively execute projects - in other words the mechanical guys don't speak to the piping guys, the electrical guys don't speak to the control systems guys. I have found that many do not want the assume command - they would rather follow than lead. |
Curious who is the better employee in the short and long term here then? One that has been educated and trained under a western technical program or the 'top class' eastern program that you're eluding to? |
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| Every evening I died, and every evening I was born again, resurrected. |
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yu888
Board Deity
Joined: Jan 25, 2003
Posts: 18042
Location: ZhongShanParkArea SH
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| Posted:
Apr 10, 2008 - 10:32 AM |
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geeez do i sense some personality conflict still coming out...
I think the thread title is a misnomer... maybe i need to rename it CIA vs Bonnie?  |
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BONNIE
Veejay
Joined: June 17, 2005
Posts: 1909
Location: Amsterdam/Shanghai
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Apr 10, 2008 - 10:46 AM |
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Not from me Yu
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Care to expand on this? What is it, technical graphics? I'm fairly certain that there are quite a few "technical minds" on this board that have some serious experience in multiple fields that would strongly disagree with you and have also "been here" and "been there" as well. What industries are you specifically referring to?
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Oil and Gas, Chemicals and Petrochemicals - personally more than 20 years experience with fortune 500 companies.
| Quote: |
If you call root memorization and copying "Top Class Engineering", then you're spot on. Everything else, (which comprises quite a lot), is nothing short of disastrous.
Tell me this: who leads the true R&D centers here? Is it the Europeans and the Americans, or the local 'top class'? Do you see countless streams (let alone any) of "Eastern" engineers or engineering managers getting off planes working abroad in the countries that are technical powerhouses? How about Eastern engineers expat'ing to other countries that are NOT third world?
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The engineers and engineering managers getting off the plane are in management positions - and I stated clearly that the local engineers are poor in this area.
And certainly in China the foreign engineers are becoming more of a rarity with Project Managers insisting on as many local staff as possible. |
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BONNIE
Veejay
Joined: June 17, 2005
Posts: 1909
Location: Amsterdam/Shanghai
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Apr 10, 2008 - 10:55 AM |
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and since you questioned my background in the technical fields, and I submitted my experience for your and other readers perusal, perhaps you would also enlighten us with your credentials.... |
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CK1
Raver
Joined: June 07, 2007
Posts: 498
Status: Offline
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Apr 10, 2008 - 11:22 AM |
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^ Spying. Duh! |
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dfoo
Post Roaster
Joined: Jan 19, 2005
Posts: 4140
Status: Offline
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Apr 10, 2008 - 11:29 AM |
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| CIA wrote: |
...
You're dreaming and obviously not in a technical field. |
How about you take your sanctimonious attitude and stuff it where the sun don't shine?
I am a software engineer, and I can tell you that in MY experience the Chinese engineers that I have dealt with are as good as anywhere. Furthermore, I previously dealt with many 3d modelers and artists. They were also very very talented, but didn't have quite same eye for detail as some of our North American guys. |
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dfoo
Post Roaster
Joined: Jan 19, 2005
Posts: 4140
Status: Offline
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Apr 10, 2008 - 11:31 AM |
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| BONNIE wrote: |
| and since you questioned my background in the technical fields, and I submitted my experience for your and other readers perusal, perhaps you would also enlighten us with your credentials.... |
... cue idiotic lecture by CIA on how we're all wrong, and only he in his greatness can possibly be right.
Moron. |
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CIA
LoopKicker
Joined: Mar 23, 2008
Posts: 890
Location: Least Expect
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Apr 10, 2008 - 11:39 AM |
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| yu888 wrote: |
geeez do i sense some personality conflict still coming out...
I think the thread title is a misnomer... maybe i need to rename it CIA vs Bonnie? |
Could have just been named: Round II? 
Anyway.............................. |
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| wrote: |
| Every evening I died, and every evening I was born again, resurrected. |
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CIA
LoopKicker
Joined: Mar 23, 2008
Posts: 890
Location: Least Expect
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| Posted:
Apr 10, 2008 - 11:46 AM |
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| BONNIE wrote: |
| Oil and Gas, Chemicals and Petrochemicals - personally more than 20 years experience with fortune 500 companies. |
That's still not representative for 'all engineers' in 'all markets'.
| BONNIE wrote: |
The engineers and engineering managers getting off the plane are in management positions - and I stated clearly that the local engineers are poor in this area.
And certainly in China the foreign engineers are becoming more of a rarity with Project Managers insisting on as many local staff as possible. |
Um, wouldn't good engineering managers be a natural extension of such good fundamental engineering? Seems like a logical progression. If China's so great, generally speaking, in business and by your acclaim they are great at engineering, wouldn't engineering and technical management come naturally then?
Pipedream, fundamentally flawed in so many ways we don't have the time nor the patience to name them all.
The only reason "Project Managers" insist on local engineering staff is because doing it any other way would eat into the profit margins for the low cost labor strategy that is built into the economics. You're really not going to sit there and claim it is any other reason.......... otherwise it would be more expensive than just producing whatever the product is back in the origin country. |
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| Every evening I died, and every evening I was born again, resurrected. |
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still_here
Reacher
Joined: May 29, 2007
Posts: 370
Location: Century Park Area
Status: Offline
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Apr 10, 2008 - 11:49 AM |
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CIA, your propaganda tactics can only work when control is IN langley mate.
Bonnie is spot-on on this one. |
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CIA
LoopKicker
Joined: Mar 23, 2008
Posts: 890
Location: Least Expect
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Apr 10, 2008 - 11:50 AM |
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| dfoo wrote: |
| CIA wrote: |
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You're dreaming and obviously not in a technical field. |
How about you take your sanctimonious attitude and stuff it where the sun don't shine?
I am a software engineer, and I can tell you that in MY experience the Chinese engineers that I have dealt with are as good as anywhere. Furthermore, I previously dealt with many 3d modelers and artists. They were also very very talented, but didn't have quite same eye for detail as some of our North American guys. |
Here we go with the insults and trash talk, is the world watching now?
Your specific experience is isolated and most certainly not the norm - statistically speaking that is. Still haven't answered my previous questions about the inverse being true of the 'local talent' here growing legs and migrating other places? Or the R&D centers or any other logical argument here.
You should check your attitude at the door as well. |
_________________
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| Every evening I died, and every evening I was born again, resurrected. |
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CIA
LoopKicker
Joined: Mar 23, 2008
Posts: 890
Location: Least Expect
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Apr 10, 2008 - 11:52 AM |
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| still_here wrote: |
CIA, your propaganda tactics can only work when control is IN langley mate.
Bonnie is spot-on on this one. |
You've been drinking too much of the Kool Aid here. |
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| Every evening I died, and every evening I was born again, resurrected. |
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dfoo
Post Roaster
Joined: Jan 19, 2005
Posts: 4140
Status: Offline
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Apr 10, 2008 - 11:53 AM |
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Who insulted who first? You assume your experience is the one and only true experience. You've got two people telling you that it is not and then you have the gall to tell ME that I'm not in a technical field... |
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piper123
Lurker
Joined: June 14, 2007
Posts: 39
Status: Offline
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Apr 10, 2008 - 11:54 AM |
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I'm an Engineering Director here...and I've been an Engineering Manager in Europe and North America as well. I've personally worked in, consulted with, and negotiated with at least seven different engineering/design/R&D centers here.
I am 100% behind CIA on this one. And Bonnie, even you agreed with him when you say local engineers cannot integrate with other departments, they lack program management skills and they don't demonstrate innovation and initiative. If you're truly in an engineering role, not just designing a small widget in between playing QQ and WoW all day (another thing that happens here plenty) then you're not really "top class" are you?
And while I'm ranting...I'm well aware of the current trend to hire engineering/project management locally. God, they're worse. Realize that a local 40 yr old engineering manager started his career in about 1992 - please think about what sort of industry and/or research was creaking along here then. State-owned industries with barely a fax machine and universities running on minmal budgets. Yes they're getting better, but you're fooling yourself to think the gap isn't huge or will close by the end of this year. |
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dfoo
Post Roaster
Joined: Jan 19, 2005
Posts: 4140
Status: Offline
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Apr 10, 2008 - 11:54 AM |
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| Quote: |
| Your specific experience is isolated and most certainly not the norm - statistically speaking that is. |
What statistics? Lets see the source. |
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still_here
Reacher
Joined: May 29, 2007
Posts: 370
Location: Century Park Area
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Apr 10, 2008 - 11:57 AM |
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| CIA wrote: |
Um, wouldn't good engineering managers be a natural extension of such good fundamental engineering? Seems like a logical progression. If China's so great, generally speaking, in business and by your acclaim they are great at engineering, wouldn't engineering and technical management come naturally then?
..........
The only reason "Project Managers" insist on local engineering staff is because doing it any other way would eat into the profit margins for the low cost labor strategy that is built into the economics. You're really not going to sit there and claim it is any other reason.......... otherwise it would be more expensive than just producing whatever the product is back in the origin country. |
Good engineers = good managers???
Well, given enough time maybe. Don't want to open the pandoras box here but comparing engineers to managers is like ..........ahem..............naaah, its better i do not say it.
And yes, cost is a big factor for the PMs insisting on local staff, especially when they know that it is hardly going to have any adverse effect in terms of engineering quality. |
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CIA
LoopKicker
Joined: Mar 23, 2008
Posts: 890
Location: Least Expect
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| Posted:
Apr 10, 2008 - 11:58 AM |
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| BONNIE wrote: |
| and since you questioned my background in the technical fields, and I submitted my experience for your and other readers perusal, perhaps you would also enlighten us with your credentials.... |
Okay, here's where we break out the internet penis shiat.
I've got 20 years as well in R&D and consulting in Telecommunications, Automotive (not Tier 1 supplier, but actual) and Engineering Consulting (which has spanned multiple industries ranging from military apps to consumer products to industrial equipment and machinery). I also hold degrees plural (not that the pieces of paper mean much anyway) in Engineering and Business from top ranked universities in the respected and accredited fields.
I've both worked and managed projects, design and research on three continents and in multiple industries.
What's next, how many horseshoes can I successfully throw around the post?  |
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| Every evening I died, and every evening I was born again, resurrected. |
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CIA
LoopKicker
Joined: Mar 23, 2008
Posts: 890
Location: Least Expect
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| Posted:
Apr 10, 2008 - 12:00 PM |
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| dfoo wrote: |
| Who insulted who first? You assume your experience is the one and only true experience. You've got two people telling you that it is not and then you have the gall to tell ME that I'm not in a technical field... |
Where did I say all of that? Or was it what you assumed / read into the discussion? Get your facts straight. |
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| Every evening I died, and every evening I was born again, resurrected. |
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