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pixelpunter
StreetBeater
Joined: Sep 15, 2005
Posts: 2199
Status: Offline
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Apr 25, 2008 - 10:24 PM |
 
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Kiwi, get your head out of your arse. I'm not saying t¡bet was or wasn't independent of China, I'm simply saying it's a debatable point, and not because I'm some moron who's decided to debate it. And yes, everything that DFOO and HC posted before, is enough to make it a debatable point, you jackass. |
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The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it. |
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BlackAdder
PopStar
Joined: Apr 21, 2006
Posts: 1042
Status: Offline
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Apr 25, 2008 - 10:46 PM |
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ahh CLM, it is not so much I saying you hate the chinese more me getting carried away with my own writing, the whole tasting of disdain was more to stroke my wordsmith ego then a statement on you.
Yes some of the pro china prοtesters were organized some went on there own accord, but the frenzy online and around the world is that the chinese are fed up, with the double standards, last Saturday, 3000 chinese demonstrated in paris, it wasn't covered by most western news sources. The initial riots in lhasa were to commemorate the failed unprising in 59, but how many news sources go telling that they were CIA backed.
the Liar Liar thing, according to the t¡betan government in exile 1.2 million t¡betans have been killed since chinese rule, most international scholars and statesmen believe that this figure to be greatly exaggerated, since in 1953 the population of t¡betans was only 1.2 million and it now stands a tick over 2.5 million. The reason why most believe the claim by the government in exile to be false is down to the facts that the population has doubled, in the 50 odd years since and no mass grave sits exist and killing that many poeple would have to deplete towns and cities. This is one instance where the facts put forward by pro t¡betans are very contentious, if you then go into the history origin of the da1a¡ 1ama, t¡betan independence and the rest it is all contentious, you shouldn't be so critical to the chinese for calling them liars if they believe it to be false. So considering the amount of flack china has copped over t¡bet, the threat of boycott and international pressure, it can be understood why pro china supporters feel so aggrieved not to mention the non partisan western media.
Like I said before most of the pro-t¡bet deomnstraters are people that have never been there or too young have lived under the da1a¡ 1ama or both, The prοtest against a communist structure demonized through the cold war vs a idealic, shangri-la that never existed. The pro china demonstrators are people that grew up and lived in the modern china, the real irony is when you see a young white girl chanting human rights in china, to a mass crowd on chinese poeple against her. It very much begs the question how much and to what extent does the west feel a superiority over china and still feels the need for china to bring herself inline with western ideals, values and ethics. |
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hc
Post Roaster
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 4545
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Apr 26, 2008 - 12:11 AM |
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| tomnoddy_uk wrote: |
| para 1) if you've been to Dharmsala you'll know the people that live there are not what you would call lords. nor the surrounding valleys where many t¡betans reside. |
Do you speak t¡betan? How do you know if someone is a lord or not? Because guess what, they arent lords in india, they lost their possessions like they should have. Did you expect the lords to lose their possessions in China and get them back in India? Quite naive.
Oh now it's a discussion that you cannot lose because you've been to Dharmsala and hence you "know it". Great "debating" technique.
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para 3) i think its safe to assume someone is not 'scum' unless they prove otherwise.
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So you are saying that people that had thousands of serfs, promoted torture, slavery, debt throughout life, let their people starve while they lived in luxury are NOT scum?
Good to know you have standards.
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para 4) the fact that they now live in a democracy, which india is. hence it has a lot to do with it. hardly a moot point.
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They live in a democracy (a fairly young at that) hence they are democratic. Haha. Good thinking.
So, you live in a dictatorship, when you go back to the UK will you promote a dictatorship then?
[quote]
para 5) i don't understand what you mean.[/.quote]
Expected.
Funny how england was quick to sell off the Palestines with Balfour but now they implicitly defend a free t¡bet. Selfish, very selfish.
Talk about hypocrisy. |
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*CheerLeader*Mao
Post Roaster
Joined: July 07, 2004
Posts: 4678
Location: frenCh belgiuM
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Apr 26, 2008 - 01:20 AM |
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HC, give it a rest. You have read a couple books by very biased authors and act like you are a t¡bet expect.
DL was 10 when he was leading t¡bet. And he has shown for 60 years he is not scum, in fact he has shown to be an incredibly peaceful man.
As well you spout off all this stuff about slavery (totally untrue), torture and serfdom.
And to top it off, this is all sh1t that China is known for as well. in fact it has an extremely long history of it. along with every other society on earth. Are the Chinese still torturing and/or killing political prisoners at t¡bet's Drapchi Prison?
Its just the typical CCP propaganda, and propaganda of the typical colonist that seeks to completely dehumanize the people being oppressed and label the oppressor as the saviour to the people. Total Bullfeces.
Why do you fall for this crap.
Did you know that the 14 DL sought to eliminate the death penalty but was rebuked by the Chinese? If they were soooooo evil over 2000 years of history how could this be?
As well, democracy is an measure of freedom in a society, whether you like it or not it is an evolutionary shift from people controlled by a gov't to moving to that gov't serving the people.
You can debate whether democracy is the best political solution (we all know its not perfect) but it without a doubt a clear sign that a society is more free and less controlled by a gov't when compared to other forms of gov't.
So there are currently over 100,000 t¡betans living in exile. That is a lot of people who must have been living in luxury at the hands of the serfs.
Or maybe just maybe you have eaten up too much Chinese propaganda in your research. |
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*CheerLeader*Mao
Post Roaster
Joined: July 07, 2004
Posts: 4678
Location: frenCh belgiuM
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Apr 26, 2008 - 02:52 AM |
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In Shift, China Offers to Meet With da1a¡ 1ama Envoys
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/26/world/asia/26china.html?_r=1&pagewan ted=2&ei=5088&en=79f6f142a2175155&ex=1366862400&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss &oref=slogin
Article Tools Sponsored By
By JIM YARDLEY
Published: April 26, 2008
BEIJING — China appeared to bend to international pressure on Friday as the government announced it would meet with envoys of the da1a¡ 1ama, an unexpected shift that comes as t¡betan unrest in western China has threatened to cast a pall over the Beijing Olympics in August.
China’s announcement, made through the country’s official news agency, provided few details about the shape or substance of the talks but said the new discussions would commence “in the coming days.” The breakthrough comes as Chinese officials have pivoted this week and moved to tamp down the domestic nationalist anger unleashed by the t¡betan crisis and by the prοtests at the international Olympic torch relay.
“In view of the requests repeatedly made by the da1a¡ side for resuming talks, the relevant department of the central government will have contact and consultation with da1a¡’s private representative in the coming days,” said an unidentified Chinese official, according to Xinhua, the official news agency.
State media made the announcement shortly after José Manuel Barroso, president of the European Union’s executive arm, met with Prime Minister Wen Jiabao. Mr. Barroso called the announcement encouraging and said China appeared prepared to discuss all issues except sovereignty.
”If the concern of the da1a¡ 1ama is, as he has always stated, respect of cultural identity, religious identity and autonomy inside China, I believe, I believe, there’s real room for a dialogue,” he said, according to The Associated Press.
The da1a¡ 1ama, the exiled t¡betan spiritual leader, was returning to India from the United States on Friday. He has repeatedly called for renewed talks with Chinese officials and last month sent a letter to China’s president, Hu Jintao. Earlier this month, he hinted in Seattle that a back-channel discussion was already under way. On Friday, his spokesman, Tenzin Taklha, said, “Since His Holiness is committed to dialogue, we would welcome this.”
The spokesman added that the da1a¡ 1ama had not yet received any official communication from China. “We also have to look at when the offer does officially arrive,” he said from Dharamsala, India, the seat of the t¡betan government in exile. “We have to look at conditions they are talking about.”
For weeks, Chinese officials have castigated the da1a¡ 1ama in harsh language and blamed him for orchestrating the violent t¡betan prοtests that erupted March 14 in Lhasa and then spread across other t¡betan regions of western China. The da1a¡ 1ama has denied any involvement in the demonstrations and denounced the violence, if also criticizing China for its crackdown against prοtesters.
China’s tough stance came as international leaders, including President Bush, have described the da1a¡ 1ama as a man of peace and called on China to resume a dialogue with his envoys that began in 2002 but then broke off last summer after six rounds of talks. Those talks, focused on the future status of t¡bet and whether the da1a¡ 1ama will be allowed to return there, never made significant progress.
The timing of China’s announcement suggests that party leaders hope to defuse the international criticism that has steadily mounted since the t¡betan prοtests began. In Europe, criticism is particularly strong as several government leaders have announced they will not attend the opening ceremony of the Olympic Games. Anti-China prοtesters caused violent disruptions to the Olympic torch relay in London and Paris, forcing relay organizers to change the route in other cities out of security concerns. China’s supporters have responded by flooding to the relay route.
“I believe the important question is whether China is doing this as a public relations maneuver to respond to international pressure before the Olympic Games,” said Wang Lixiong, a scholar in Beijing who has criticized government policy in t¡bet. “They want the da1a¡ 1ama to help them relieve pressure before the Olympics. But is it a sincere move, or just a public relations move?”
Shi Yinhong, a professor of international relations at People’s University in Beijing, said the Chinese government does not want the talks to be “interpreted as a concession under duress.” He predicted that any discussions would be unlikely to bring meaningful breakthroughs.
“I doubt that both sides will change their fundamental positions,” Mr. Shi said. “If there is dialogue, this is dialogue for the sake of dialogue. Maybe both sides only want to impress the Western audience.”
Prime Minister Gordon Brown of Britain and Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany have announced that they will not attend the opening ceremony of the Games on Aug. 8 and never intended to.
The French President, Nicolas Sarkozy, who has raised the possibility of skipping the opening ceremonies, said in a live interview on national television Thursday night that as France takes the six-month leadership of the European Union in July, he wants to find a unified European stand on the Games.
In recent days, China and France have been working assiduously to assuage the public anger and mutual accusations sparked by the t¡betan prοtests. Chinese have been enraged by the anti-Chinese prοtests during the Paris leg of the torch relay and also by Sarkozy’s possible boycott.
On Thursday, President Hu Jintao met in Beijing with the president of the French Senate, Christian Poncelet, and emphasized the value that China places on Sino-French relations, even as he repeated Chinese complaints about the torch. Also on Thursday, Prime Minister Wen Jiabao met with France’s prime minister, Jean-Pierre Raffarin, in another effort to smooth the strained ties.But on Friday, the major French supermarket chain, Carrefour, with some 2 million customers in China, said that it had canceled a major ad campaign set in China for the May 1 holiday. Its officials have said that the calls to boycott French products are serious, but so far have not had a major impact on sales.
t¡bet’s status is a politically explosive issue inside and outside China. The da1a¡ 1ama has talked about “genuine autonomy” within the Chinese state for what he describes as “greater t¡bet” a region that includes the current t¡bet Autonomous Region as well as t¡betan areas of neighboring Chinese provinces. In the past, Chinese officials have resisted any discussions on t¡bet’s status and only shown willingness to negotiate over the da1a¡ 1ama’s return.
“I don’t think they’re willing to give much ground on the concrete issues, like autonomy in t¡bet,” said Mr. Wang, the Chinese scholar. “The Chinese government has never admitted there is anything to negotiate in terms of t¡bet. These are meetings with the da1a¡ 1ama’s people, never negotiations. They say, “We’ll meet you.’ But it will not necessarily solve any problems.”
China has long condemned the da1a¡ 1ama as a “splittist” who is pursuing t¡betan independence, even as a spokesman for the da1a¡ 1ama notes that he has not sought independence since 1974. Chinese spokesmen often say the government would be willing to resume dialogue with the t¡betan spiritual leader but only if he shows “sincerity” in renouncing separatism and on other issues.
“It is hoped that through contact and consultation, the da1a¡ side will take credible moves to stop activities aimed at splitting China, stop plotting and inciting violence and stop disrupting and sabotaging the Beijing Olympic Games so as to create conditions for talks,” the unidentified Chinese official said in Friday’s official announcement.
Samdhong Lobsang Tenzin Rinpoche, the t¡betan prime minister in exile, denounced these conditions as “absolutely irrelevant and devoid of any basis.
“His Holiness is not the person to instigate or incite the uprising,” Mr. Rinpoche said in a telephone interview from Dharamsala. “His Holiness is not seeking separation, and right from the beginning has been supporting the Olympic Games. Whatever they have said is absolutely imaginatory and deserves no comment.” |
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hc
Post Roaster
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 4545
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Apr 26, 2008 - 03:06 AM |
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Actually I just read 1 book about t¡bet, and some articles, plus the experiences of my parents who went to t¡bet some 25 years ago. I listened to some lectures on the topic as well. I dont know what makes you think I think I am an expert. It reminds me of when I was out of the plane here for the first time and I saw a foreigner say ni hao and I thought he was really the fkng chinese master. Maybe it was the only thing he could say but I would never know it. Same here.
But I guess you are trying to use the fact I spent more time reading this shiat than you as a disadvantage when actually we both know that it is the opposite. Sad strategy actually. "Hey hc you read all these books that are against the western mainstream crap! Who the fk are you to do that!"
Quite disappointing actually, considering you know me personally and you know what I stand for.
I think the fact you say any literature that is not mainstream as "biased" is a glaring confirmation that you drank the "China is necessarily bad at all times" Kool Aid, the same shiat Edgewood uses to make himself and his life miserable.
Speaking of book, this guy called Robert Cialdini wrote this great book on psychological motivators and he talks a lot about reciprocation and consistency. And that's exactly what's going on here: Pixelpunter, BlackAdder, Dfoo, and myself came up with strong arguments, but since these arguments go against your consistency and expected way of -always- perceiving China in a given way without giving the benefit of the doubt, you either will say everybody is biased than asking yourself: "Wait, what if what they are saying is actually true?" There was a pretty good post about this exact "what if" moment started a couple of weeks ago.
As a matter of fact the book that I read a couple of times about t¡bet is considered out there as the most well researched book on the topic, called The Snow Lion and The Dragon. The Snow Lion is a pretty well researched book and very well acclaimed by scholars, people whose business is not depict country A or B in a pre conceived way, but actually present facts and let students judge.
So, I dont know how you could say it is "biased".
Other guys that speak on the topic (Chomski and Parenti, mostly Parenti) are the first ones to say "listen, China did A LOT OF WRONG, but...). I have a problem saying this is biased.
Small detail that both these guys are foreigners so I don't see how your comment could be classified as Chinese propaganda. Hey, you can say they are in the CCP payroll just to counter the CIA payroll thing.
But I guess you would never touch a book like this since it might make you question your beliefs, and that is a very, very, very scary thing that few people have the balls to do.
"Why do you fall for this crap."
Well. I dont know. Perhaps I am tired of seeing the massive double standard of picking on China but nobody doing anything about Palestine for example?
In fact the t¡betan situation is 100 times BETTER than Palestine. Consider the following:
1-The life of the t¡betans IMPROVED after the CCP took over (talking about the average guy plowing the fields, not the former nobleman that lost his property while sipping a lemonade in Daramsala). Lots of statistics on this.
2-There are no resolutions on the UN about t¡bet, differently from Palestine, meaning the world, differently from the imbeciles on this site and out there wearing free t¡bet crap, knows it.
3-By law t¡betans have more rights than the average Chinese (Lemongrass or another Chinese poster please chip in with info on that). True: it wasnt always like this. And yes, like everything else in this country I guess there are enforcement issues
4-No country recognizes t¡bet (in fact the ROC ALSO claims the t¡bet as a part of their country, a pipe dream)
"As well, democracy is an measure of freedom in a society, whether you like it or not it is an evolutionary shift from people controlled by a gov't to moving to that gov't serving the people."
So, China is not free. A lot of countries arent. You are doing the classical mistake of thinking 1789 and everything derived from it affected all countries equally. Guess what: China was NEVER free the way YOU define free. I dont know how practical judging them by this standard is.
Now, the whole thing boils down to this: the only judge of this situation is the t¡betan plowing the fields.
The armchair revolutionary in daramsala is not a good source for judgement on this. Nor is the Chinese settler. The only source I read that spoke directly to these guys mentioned they werent all that unhappy, at least on the economic front, about how things turned out (I do agree that on the religious front they might be unhappy, but then that's what happens in a Theocracy when god needs to leave because he is a cnt taking money from the CIA). Now, books such as the book Andreas likes to refer to (Mary Craig), mentions that "t¡betans interviewed in India" which means didly squat and several "believed to be" statements, hardly a credibility builder is it? Now, my question to you: just like you said the books you think I read as propaganda, is the book he mentioned propaganda? Is there any CHANCE that someone might have done China injustice?
See, this is where you start feeling uncomfortable, because you never questioned the shiat you read, but you do question other people's, mostly because they go against your beliefs.
Now, we have two options: either we give it the benefit of the doubt to China, like we woudl do with any country (or at least any aligned country) or we automatically consider anything that might be bad as reality, which is what I think happens a lot of the time. And no, China dont do itself a favor by not playing the PR game IN ADDITION to having had a past where a lot of stuff went bonkers. Fact!
Here is where you lost the plot:
"As well you spout off all this stuff about slavery (totally untrue), torture and serfdom.
And to top it off, this is all sh1t that China is known for as well. in fact it has an extremely long history of it. along with every other society on earth. Are the Chinese still torturing and/or killing political prisoners at t¡bet's Drapchi Prison?"
The pillar to the West propaganda is the struggle between a peaceful country, incapable of violence, and the evil COMMUNISTS that eat babies that are now fkng t¡bet in the ass.
And all the emotion is tied to this David-Goliath dynamic.
Well, all is good, except that the assumption that t¡bet is the peaceful loving non-violent nation is a big fat lie, as you SAID YOURSELF, and I quote: "And to top it off, this is all sh1t that China is known for as well." "As well as" in this case meaning differently from what the West likes to portray t¡bet, their shiat stinks like everybody elses.
So, you see. There's where the myth starts to crumble: the assumption that Tbt is all good love victimized good guys is a farce, you proved it yourself.
So, if THIS is a farce, what else could be a farce?
Blackadder points mention many farces.
Dfoos treaties mention a big farce.
And so forth.
Okay, so where does this leave us?
Simple: it's pretty easy to spot the hypocrisy and to notice how t¡bet is being used by the West and vice-versa to contain an up and coming adversary (meaning the West is doing to China what it did to Hitler, which was a mistake...now, we know a couple of you, I dont need to give names, will come up with the simplistic, idiotic "oh China 2008 = Germany 1938"...please, spare us from your stupidity and unsophistication of thought).
The hypocrisy of handling one situation one way (Palestine) and another situation in the exact OPPOSITE way hardly contributes to a solution, further it encroaches all other parties (by the way I'd love to see Palestinians using this as their chance to show the massive hypocrisy going on here....they wouldnt get press time anyway, but...).
The point I want to make is this: t¡bet, Palestine, Africa, those are important but not the most important point at stake. And what is at stake is the ability of humanity to sit down on a table and focus on solving problems and not on petty interests. This idea, perhaps a naive one, that Woodrow Wilson was trying to push down got derailed (thanks to fukng Clemenceau) in Versailles, where a lot of shiat happened that cost the world hundreds of millions of lives all things considered.
We are reaching a situation where resources are getting scarce, population is increasing, economic dynamics are shifting, quality of life for some will have to necessarily go down, one way or another, and when that happens we go lower in our Maslow scale of values and start thinking in a scarcity oriented way.
Win-win situations require an abundance mentality to work out.
We are quickly heading towards a world where diplomacy, like Mao said, will be dictated by the barrel of a gun.
Unless we are able to review some of the massive injustices done last century and start thinking in terms of a clean slate, we will pretty much live like shiat in the next decades. And to start with a clean slate will need everyone together, without this western bullshiat superiority thing. That means starting at Palestine, then moving on, admitting mistakes, applying the same rules to everybody. That's a massive obstacle to bring China onboard. And no, I am not saying that China is ready or not, but what I am definitely saying is that the west is not ready to let another country have a say and to consider this up and coming country in equal footing (differently from all this democracy and freedom BULLCRAP that you are talking about all the time).
Anyway, that was a tiring post. I really think you attacked most people's arguments in a simplistic and derogatory way just because they go against some of your ingrained beliefs. I will be the first one to admit now and then I do the same. But again, if the objective is to help the guy plowing the fields, doing what is being done hardly helps. Hardly. |
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Cambronne
Veejay
Joined: Feb 23, 2008
Posts: 2012
Status: Offline
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Apr 26, 2008 - 03:24 AM |
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About t¡bet vs. Palestine. When I post a pic of a young American girl who got massacred by Israeli police using a bulldozer, I get censored. But this forum is full of pro-t¡bet independence crap like this. Double standard indeed. Interesting however to read what those brainwashed Westerners can write about t¡bet, especially when compounded by China hatred - that one probably caused by bad personal experience here, most likely totally unrelated to actions by the Chinese government. |
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Countless people will hate the new world order and will die protesting against it. |
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Kiwi
Post Boaster
Joined: May 07, 2003
Posts: 4763
Status: Offline
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Apr 26, 2008 - 05:39 AM |
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| pixelpunter wrote: |
| Kiwi, get your head out of your arse. I'm not saying t¡bet was or wasn't independent of China, I'm simply saying it's a debatable point, and not because I'm some moron who's decided to debate it. And yes, everything that DFOO and HC posted before, is enough to make it a debatable point, you jackass. |
Fine. . .
You are not a moron.
I just had my head in my arse. I'm like that sometimes.
Whether t¡bet was ever not part of China is highly controversial.
The official Chinese line that t¡bet became part of China during the Yuan Dynasty is incorrect because in fact t¡bet was likely always part of China. The Chinese just sometimes forgot about it. What with their country being so large it was kind of hard to keep track of everything.
That thing where the t¡betans 'attacked' the Chinese capital Chang'an and burned it to the ground? Well obviously it was a fabrication. It's controversial of course, but probably some t¡betan tourists (domestic tour party mind you) were visiting the terracotta warriors, drank too much of the local baijiu, somebody knocked over a lamp, and next thing they have somehow made it into the history books. Well OK, it's controversial, but that's one interpretation - and just as valid as all the others.
That t¡betan empire that stretched down to Bengal was very possibly Chinese too - it's highly controversial. Oh, and I guess on that basis Bangladesh could be another part of China that nobody knew about till now. Again it's controversial but certainly a possibility. |
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dfoo
Post Roaster
Joined: Jan 19, 2005
Posts: 4140
Status: Offline
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Apr 26, 2008 - 06:42 AM |
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^ Ah ah... So the message is that the treaties mean nothing then? Bit of a slippery slope no? I'm honestly curious, if you want to ignore treaties and other such international recognitions of who owns what, then how do you determine sovereignty? After all many western nations were, not that long ago, stolen from the native indigenous peoples. Australia, New Zealand, Canada, US, much (all?) of south america -- but I don't hear you, and others, debating the finer points of ownership of these lands. The way I see it, those people living in stolen lands, have no more right to tell the Chinese to get out of t¡bet than the Chinese have to tell the Canadians to get out of Canada.
BTW, Great post HC. One of the best. |
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Kiwi
Post Boaster
Joined: May 07, 2003
Posts: 4763
Status: Offline
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Apr 26, 2008 - 06:54 AM |
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Dfoo, you are not responding to my above post, right?
Just making sure, because I don't see the connection. |
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oh_the_darkness
Fire-eater
Joined: Apr 17, 2008
Posts: 2528
Status: Offline
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Apr 26, 2008 - 07:14 AM |
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The CCP has made a motion to turn the pοta⌊a Palace into a casino in an effort to let the t¡betans earn some kind of revenue. This has been halted by the Dala 1ama who insists that it's wrong t¡bet (to bet).
HAHAHA!!! I made that joke up all by myself. |
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And you may ask yourself Am I right? ...am I wrong? And you may tell yourself My god!...what have I done? |
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beautiful_mind0905
Board Lord
Joined: June 18, 2006
Posts: 5646
Status: Offline
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Apr 26, 2008 - 08:28 AM |
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^Isn't even worthy of a giggle. |
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Women are the ones who maintain the world while men throw it into disarray with their historic brutality. |
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*CheerLeader*Mao
Post Roaster
Joined: July 07, 2004
Posts: 4678
Location: frenCh belgiuM
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Apr 26, 2008 - 01:05 PM |
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Hey HC, well written. More eloquent then the usual attacks of late but most of the content is the same.
If your big beef is that t¡bet is portrayed as a nice place in the West and Hollywood movies and it wasn't necessarily like that then fine, you have said to us many times, repeatedly, again, and again, and again...
I still see zero correlation between that opinion and t¡bet wanting more autonomy. But after 50 or so posts saying the same thing, I don't think my point will ever get through to you, or Dfoo (Mr. Always hahahaha) or Cambronne.
But, the great thing of it all, none of it matters now. Because despite everyone saying I am anti-China, whatever the fcuk that means, the CCP gov't now agrees with.................................................................. ....
ME
Yes, me. The CCP is taking the advice of the China hater. Imagine that. Put that in your opium pipes and smoke it.
They are engaging the Dali 1ama's people. Opening dialogue and moving things forward.
So I guess the CCP are all China haters, betrayers of China, because they agree with my course of action.
Not yours.
Mine.
I win.
So have a good one today. Cudos on the debate. Keep on trying but realize you are going to have to work a little harder next time. |
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hc
Post Roaster
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 4545
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Apr 26, 2008 - 02:14 PM |
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^ Again a very naive and narrow interpretation of both what the CCP is doing (talking to the DL) and a position hold by other people here.
You failed to grasp that the issue is not only how t¡bet is portrayed in the West but more importantly how the way diplomacy and the media are being engineered prevents humanity as whole from solve some of its crucial problems.
But hey, I agree, not always easy to see the big picture. Sometimes it is easier to nitpick on sentences and win ping pong battles and pretend all is well while the guns of Navaronne are getting ready for something much bigger.
To be continued. |
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Nathalie25
Board Legend
Joined: Aug 24, 2004
Posts: 10387
Location: Shanghai
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Apr 26, 2008 - 03:55 PM |
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I am sure that HC will be winner if he is as eloquent as cheerleadermao????? |
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功高盖主，必有祸出。人生是人类生命中内心和万般经历的真实写照。 http:/ |
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BlackAdder
PopStar
Joined: Apr 21, 2006
Posts: 1042
Status: Offline
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Apr 26, 2008 - 04:57 PM |
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the thing is, without being a cynic, is that china knows all it has to do it weather the PR storm, get the talks rolling get the olympics off without a hitch, and by spring festival next year the talks would have broken down and alot of t¡betans will be punished, severely.
I think ultimately it's no longer a question of freedom or equality but a matter of perception. Lets face it if china was democratic and the cold war never happened the whole t¡bet thing would be on the back burner. One thing that must be said about democracy is that we often forget that it the masses the mob that dictates it. Like the roman mob, the politicians of today play to popular causes and popular politics, because they must at the end of the day ensure the masses re-elect them/party. Ultimately those in charge do not make the right decision but the popular one. Not one to sound above the masses, but often the popular choice is one that is stirred by the media and sentiment. The mob is mostly not the best educated and not the most insightful. Yet democracy would allow it to them to make the choices.
so back to t¡bet, china will play popular politics, drag out the talks lets the fickle masses forget this issue and wait for britney to go bonkers agains or tom cruise. The thing is since the t¡bet since started in march it has got them alot of press and publicity, but publicity is finite, attention here means things in iraq and sudan got pushed on the back burner. Fame doesn't last forever, once the olympics are over, and the masses attention are elsewhere it is the t¡betans that will loose out in the end. The sad reality is this will not end well for them, they stirred the giant and whether you think it's fair or not they will be thumped. One thing history has taught us is that the CCP do tend to hold onto grudges. Take into consideration China's growing economic power, which will be strengthened after the current economic correction, It is those smaller nations that stood against china that will ultimately loose out, can you in all honesty see China coming out on the wrong side of this. |
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very cunning indeed |
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oh_the_darkness
Fire-eater
Joined: Apr 17, 2008
Posts: 2528
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Apr 26, 2008 - 05:09 PM |
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| *CheerLeader*Mao wrote: |
The mindboggling thing to me is the complete lack of empathy of Han Chinese to the whole issue. Like they are somehow surprised that t¡bet rioted. In fact, they go to extremes to go out of their way to show more and more hatred to the t¡betan people. And not just within China and t¡bet, but protesting and organising prοtests in other countries like Australia to drown out the t¡bet voice....much like they have done to their country the last 60 years.
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I agree with you on this one. It's like 'Why are they doing this to us innocent Chinese people?'. Kind of like the Yanks in 911. I mean, they didn't see that coming at all?
There are (apparently) fears of terrorist attacks during the Olympics and the Chinese will be crying and wailing if it actually does happen completely surprised that anyone would want to harm the eternally kind Chinese people.
If this does happen I'm not sure how much I could show sympathy given that many Chinese giggled with glee when 911 happened.
One thing is for sure - real estate in t¡bet will go through the roof in value. Buy now. |
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bougie
Board Buddha
Joined: Nov 20, 2004
Posts: 13323
Location: Wuhan Hubei China
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Apr 26, 2008 - 05:17 PM |
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Isn't it funny how a penis usually fits in a vagina just nice ? 
Ok pls carry on about timbet |
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dyniquee
Post Boaster
Joined: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 4777
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Apr 26, 2008 - 05:55 PM |
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| bougie wrote: |
Isn't it funny how a penis usually fits in a vagina just nice ?
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LOL! yeah it really is that simple.
Doing what comes naturally. Stanley Fish is cool by the way.
Ok pls carry on about timbet
D |
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Entangled Quantum Effect's at its best. |
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dyniquee
Post Boaster
Joined: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 4777
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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Apr 26, 2008 - 06:28 PM |
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of course Chinese government will talk to DL, sooner or later, it's just a matter of time ... BUT timing IS important ... it's part of the strategic plan. Now the government is having the 天时，the 地利，and most important, the 人和。Why not?!
D |
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Entangled Quantum Effect's at its best. |
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dyniquee
Post Boaster
Joined: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 4777
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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Apr 26, 2008 - 06:33 PM |
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3 versions of translation for 天时、地利、人和, FYI：
1) good timing, geographical convenience and harmonious human relations;
2) opportune time, advantageous terrain and popular support;
3) favourable climatic, geographical and human conditions
D |
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Entangled Quantum Effect's at its best. |
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beachgirl
Reacher
Joined: Aug 29, 2006
Posts: 345
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Apr 27, 2008 - 01:01 AM |
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[quote="oh_the_darkness"]
| *CheerLeader*Mao wrote: |
The mindboggling thing to me is the complete lack of empathy of Han Chinese to the whole issue. Like they are somehow surprised that t¡bet rioted. In fact, they go to extremes to go out of their way to show more and more hatred to the t¡betan people. And not just within China and t¡bet, but protesting and organising prοtests in other countries like Australia to drown out the t¡bet voice....much like they have done to their country the last 60 years.
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We should be very careful when refer to Chinese and t¡betans.
When refer to Chinese here, the meaning should not limited to Han only, Chinese are made of 56 majorities and minorities, when many of you refer to Chinese here, you refer to Han Chinese, that auto separated Chinese into your idea of singling.
t¡betans is not limited to t¡betan exiles and splitter and DL only, t¡betan is some what 2.5 millions now living in t¡bet, if you speak of the right of t¡betans, you speak of 2.5 millions, not those less than 0.5% that funded by CIA and western manipulative politicians.
The fundamental injustice here is the riots under the name of freedom, killing innocent Han, Hui(Islamic Chinese), t¡betans, burning down house, attacking schools, severe violence towards commonalty regardless whatever ethics they belong to in Lhasa, is not going to be tolerated by any governments especially the westerns, surprisly, the bias in western media, no detail report of any of these violence but back them up under the name of freedom and human rights, and change the story into Chinese government crack down of uprisings is a huge lie. Which has made the western media lost its credibility to the Chinese people, big time. And this has never happen before. In general, most Chinese take respect in Western media as they always claim to be fair, justice and reliable. I believe this is the very first time, that Western media did not realize that how much damage that they have done to their own selves only to provoke 1.3 b Chinese (not limited to Han Chinese) that is 1/4 of world population.
No Chinese go to extremes to go out of their way to show more and more hatred to the t¡betan people, they go out because they are not being heard by their real voice, and their hatred is not to the t¡betans, but to the t¡betan riots and splitters who does not have the right to speak for all. |
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Cambronne
Veejay
Joined: Feb 23, 2008
Posts: 2012
Status: Offline
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Apr 27, 2008 - 01:24 AM |
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I must say that personally I find this racial and religious view of the world, promoted by USrael, their vassal states (france - no capital please - comes to mind as the most abject) and the brainwashed masses (we have CLM here), distressing. |
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Countless people will hate the new world order and will die protesting against it. |
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beachgirl
Reacher
Joined: Aug 29, 2006
Posts: 345
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Apr 27, 2008 - 01:29 AM |
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Not far from where I live, there is a bar own by t¡betan, in 1st tier Chinese City. Normally he sells t¡betan beers, play t¡betan musics, and put on t¡betan arts and paintings to attract local people. He is t¡betan alone that lives in Modern Chinese city. During March, he did not open his bar. But now he reopen it, and I've seen him sit down with some of his neighbours again, mostly are Han Chinese, they chit chat as usual. Nobody come up to his bar to disturb him and insult him. By living in Han territory, he did not lost his inherited, he actually promote his culture to Han people, and they love it. I don' t see the reason a t¡betan can not be recognize as t¡betan if he is living with Han, or a Han can not be recognize as Han when he is living with t¡betans, only the racism separate them. |
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How close you can get and how far you can go here............. |
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Nathalie25
Board Legend
Joined: Aug 24, 2004
Posts: 10387
Location: Shanghai
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