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oh_the_darkness
Fire-eater
Joined: Apr 17, 2008
Posts: 2528
Status: Offline
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Apr 25, 2008 - 03:30 PM |
 
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^ Which is highly debatable given all those treaties and ****.
Britain and Japan both considered it part of China during WW2. |
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hc
Post Roaster
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 4545
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Apr 25, 2008 - 03:45 PM |
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"Millions of people starving to death isn't enough for you? "
The CR was a big mistake, nobody is saying otherwise. But by no means it was the rule. It was the exception.
If you want to debate the occupation then you also need to debate what should substitute the current regime, and the substitute for it is much worse.
The guys in exile are pretty much the worst thing the poor t¡betan plowing the fields want.
However, if you ask one of the "poor" aristocrat serf owners in exile they will say otherwise. Doh. |
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tomnoddy_uk
Fire-eater
Joined: Mar 14, 2006
Posts: 2910
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Apr 25, 2008 - 03:51 PM |
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a) I would suggest you are implying the t¡betan government in exile would rule exactly as it is alleged (I don't know enough about it but take it as true) they did pre-PRC. I think this is misguided, anyone supposing the DL would come back and become some sort of dictator is moronic. The t¡betan Gov in exile has made more progress towards democracy than Beijing has since they came to existence. This would suggest that they would be more reflective of the TAR desires than the current t¡betan administration. I think I recall a figure of 2 t¡betans out of 100 from a FT article in the TAR local government.
b) I think the point CLM is making, and he's not tried to make anything more or less than this, is that it is up to the people of t¡bet to decide what happens, not for us to say they are right or wrong, and not for Beijing. |
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yu888
Board Deity
Joined: Jan 25, 2003
Posts: 18042
Location: ZhongShanParkArea SH
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Apr 25, 2008 - 03:51 PM |
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hc
Post Roaster
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 4545
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Apr 25, 2008 - 03:56 PM |
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"I think this is misguided, anyone supposing the DL would come back and become some sort of dictator is moronic."
That's the point: they want a "free t¡bet" but they dont have a clear proposal, which is pretty strange. Considering their background one cant assume anything.
"The tĦbetan Gov in exile has made more progress towards democracy than Beijing has since they came to existence. "
How is that?
This is the exact scum that had thousands of serfs and slaves, punishing their people while living in luxury. To assume that they are word class democrats denotes a hook line and sink digestion of the t¡bet Myth.
Pretty naive if you ask me. |
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tomnoddy_uk
Fire-eater
Joined: Mar 14, 2006
Posts: 2910
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Apr 25, 2008 - 04:20 PM |
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The t¡betan gov in exile had election in 2001 to vote in their PM. Obviously not complete democracy as only exiled t¡betans voted and the guy picked his own cabinet, but more so than it is in China at present - which was my point. I think they've had an election since then too but I've lost track.
This guy is in his 60's meaning he was less than 10 years old when the PRC was formed. Hence I doubt he had much of a say in what happened in t¡bet back then. Hardly the same 'scum' that ruled t¡bet back then. Moreover, the t¡betans in exile are predominantly in India which is a democratically elected.
The da1a¡ 1ama has also indicated the political replacement for him upon his stepping down/death should be democratically elected and hence the next DL would just be a spiritual leader and not a political leader. |
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tomnoddy_uk
Fire-eater
Joined: Mar 14, 2006
Posts: 2910
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Apr 25, 2008 - 04:23 PM |
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and as has been well publicised, they do not want an independent t¡bet.
If the Chinese would just let them have a spiritual leader (the DL) this would be a none-issue.
Also, I don't get how the DL has always been t¡betan. There are 6bn odd people in the world, the odds on their reincarnation always being a) a person, b) a male and c) a t¡betan seem quite low. |
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pixelpunter
StreetBeater
Joined: Sep 15, 2005
Posts: 2199
Status: Offline
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Apr 25, 2008 - 04:38 PM |
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quote]
IF you are use the arguements of pixelpunter to justify the Chinese actions towards tĦbet than someone could simply have used the same arguments for a justification and extinguishing of Han Chinese cultural and rule of its own country during the years of Mao communist rule.
[/quote]
You know, it's debatable whether t¡bet was ever independent of China. To this day, no country has ever recognised t¡bet's independence. |
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Megs
Wonder Wit
Joined: Nov 12, 2005
Posts: 3822
Location: Jinshan, Shanghai China
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Apr 25, 2008 - 04:51 PM |
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| pixelpunter wrote: |
IF you are use the arguements of pixelpunter to justify the Chinese actions towards tĦbet than someone could simply have used the same arguments for a justification and extinguishing of Han Chinese cultural and rule of its own country during the years of Mao communist rule.
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You know, it's debatable whether tĦbet was ever independent of China. To this day, no country has ever recognised tĦbet's independence. |
According to this website http://www.rangzen.com/history/views.htm other countries have:
World Governments Recognize t¡bet: The t¡betan Perspective
International law states that recognition can occur by explicit or implicit acts including treaties, negotiations, and diplomatic relations. Mongolia and t¡bet signed a formal treaty of recognition in 1913. Historically, Nepal and t¡bet had peace treaties. t¡betşs independence was also confirmed at the Treaty of Simla (1914) which was concluded by t¡bet and British India. In 1949, t¡bet maintained diplomatic, economic, and cultural relations with such countries as Nepal, Sikkim, Mongolia, China, British India, and to some extent, Russia and Japan. Further, Nepal maintained an Ambassador in Lhasa and told the U.N. in 1949 that it conducted international relations with t¡bet. In fact, Britian, Bhutan, India, and even China also maintained diplomatic missions in t¡bet's capitol, Lhasa. The t¡betan Foreign Office conducted talks with President Franklin D. Roosevelt when he sent representatives to Lhasa to discuss the allied war effort against Japan during World War II. In 1950, El Salvador formally requested that China's aggression against t¡bet be placed on the agenda of the U.N. General Assembly. The issue was not discussed. However, during four U.N. General Assembly debates on t¡bet (1959, 1960, 1961, & 1965), many countries (e.g., Philippines, Nicaragua, Thailand. United States, Ireland) openly stated that t¡bet was an independent country illegally occupied by China. In fact, the U.N. passed three resolutions (1959, 1961, & 1965) concerning t¡bet stating that t¡betans were deprived of their inalienable rights to self-determination. Even Mao Zedong during the Long March admitted that t¡bet was an independent country when he passed through the border regions of t¡bet remarking, "This is our only foreign debt, and some day we must pay the Mantzu (sic) and the t¡betans for the provisions we were obliged to take from them." t¡betans clearly constitute a people under international law, as described, for instance, by the UNESCO International Meeting of Experts on Further Study of the Concept of the Rights of Peoples. They are a distinct people and fulfill all the characteristics of this concept: commonality of history, shared language, culture, and ethnicity.
They also had this to say:
World Governments Do Not Recognize t¡bet: China's Perspective
China asserts that no country has ever recognized t¡bet. China also contends that Britain masterminded the Simla Conference (1913-1914) in collusion with t¡betan pro-British individuals. Both wanted to separate t¡bet from China. At the time of the Simla Conference, even though the "McMahon Line" was negotiated between t¡bet and Britain, at the end of the tripartite conference on t¡bet's status and boundaries, Chinese officials who were present refused to recognize the "Line" on the grounds that t¡bet was subordinate to China and had no power to make any treaties.
Based on what I've read so far on the page though, there's obviously a bias, and I haven't checked the data on the "countries that recognized", but perhaps I will later. |
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BlackAdder
PopStar
Joined: Apr 21, 2006
Posts: 1042
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Apr 25, 2008 - 05:16 PM |
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here's the thing, China and it's relationship with it's neighbors has always been very Chinese. The notion of nationhood as interpreted by the western ideals are very different to what has been traditionally Chinese. t¡bet's instance is peculiar in that no western country had dealt with the t¡betans as a nation, they communicated via Beijing, the one time that CLM mentions in which the British signed a pact in which 9,000 sqm of t¡bet was surrendered to modern India. This treaty signed behind China's back would later give China cause to Invade India briefly (sino india war). What CLM also fails to mention this treaty was signed after China and Briton had reached a stalemate in negotiations, the british the slaughtered over 1000 t¡betan troops with Machine guns and forced the t¡betans at Gun Point.
I started the list to mention a few things the average Joe might not have known about t¡bet, No one is saying that China has dealt with t¡bet in a perfect manner, but it is evident that t¡bet post 1959 is vastly different to the t¡bet of old. Yes we can harp on forever about CR and the great leap forward, the common denominator in it all is that everyone suffered alike whether han or t¡betan, it was a tough time. China is not singling out the t¡betans, however, given the notion that we are supposed to be multi cultural and culturally tolerant it would seem that it is the t¡betans that are not tolerant of the Han.
now that was the soft fluffy stuff here's the meat.
If you support t¡bet and Free t¡bet and Religious states that are ruled by Religous leaders of reincarnated enlightened ones, then you must also by deed support palastin, the basque and others who suffer upon ethnic and cultural oppression. If you then take the next stip and sympathize. With t¡betan riots and acts of aggressions towards han chinese and other minority chinese, then you are aligning yourself with militant causes. To which you by your support condone terrorism. It is as simple as that, one standard must be set for all, as easy as it is the cry one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter the same can be put in reverse.
So that's that, what we ask of the chinese are we also willing to demand from other governments that have disputed claims, can we call ourselves just by demanding one thing of china and swaying on others.
i'm going to wrap up with a favourite quote, injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. |
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very cunning indeed |
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hc
Post Roaster
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 4545
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Apr 25, 2008 - 06:08 PM |
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| tomnoddy_uk wrote: |
The tĦbetan gov in exile had election in 2001 to vote in their PM. Obviously not complete democracy as only exiled tĦbetans voted and the guy picked his own cabinet, but more so than it is in China at present - which was my point. I think they've had an election since then too but I've lost track.
This guy is in his 60's meaning he was less than 10 years old when the PRC was formed. Hence I doubt he had much of a say in what happened in tĦbet back then. Hardly the same 'scum' that ruled tĦbet back then. Moreover, the tĦbetans in exile are predominantly in India which is a democratically elected.
The da1aĦ 1ama has also indicated the political replacement for him upon his stepping down/death should be democratically elected and hence the next DL would just be a spiritual leader and not a political leader. |
Wow. All the exiled lords voted on each other. I am sure the guy plowing the fields is really happy!
"Hardly the same 'scum' that ruled tĦbet back then. Moreover, the tĦbetans in exile are predominantly in India which is a democratically elected."
How do you know they are not scum, considering they were the ones that lost land, luxury, serfs, slaves and sexual slaves and considering their propaganda? Further, there were several Tbtans involved in CIA back operations up to the 70s that we know of. Not quite 60 years ago is it?
What has India being a democracy to do with this? And it's not like India was a democracy since 49, so, this point is moot.
Further, the moment China steps out (which will NEVER happen), India steps in.
Free PALESTINE! |
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Click here to read the latest retarded PM Natalie sent me. Let's make her lose face and FINALLY leave this site. |
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tomnoddy_uk
Fire-eater
Joined: Mar 14, 2006
Posts: 2910
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Apr 25, 2008 - 06:16 PM |
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para 1) if you've been to Dharmsala you'll know the people that live there are not what you would call lords. nor the surrounding valleys where many t¡betans reside.
para 3) i think its safe to assume someone is not 'scum' unless they prove otherwise.
para 4) the fact that they now live in a democracy, which india is. hence it has a lot to do with it. hardly a moot point.
para 5) i don't understand what you mean.
para 6) indeed. |
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*CheerLeader*Mao
Post Roaster
Joined: July 07, 2004
Posts: 4678
Location: frenCh belgiuM
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Apr 25, 2008 - 06:24 PM |
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| So that's that, what we ask of the chinese are we also willing to demand from other governments that have disputed claims, can we call ourselves just by demanding one thing of china and swaying on others. |
Most definitely, it is happening all the time.
| Quote: |
| China is not singling out the tĦbetans, however, given the notion that we are supposed to be multi cultural and culturally tolerant it would seem that it is the tĦbetans that are not tolerant of the Han. |
Its the chinese that said china is this type of society but it clearly isnt true. When did the t¡betans agree to this multicultural china and being part of it.
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es we can harp on forever about CR and the great leap forward, the common denominator in it all is that everyone suffered alike whether han or tĦbetan |
No it was the han gov't that caused these attrocities. just because they caused them in t¡bet as well doesnt mean they are somehow part of china. Sorry that is quite a sick view of things someone implying that t¡betans should be happy that they suffered along with the Han. It was all the Han's fault.
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| started the list to mention a few things the average Joe might not have known about tĦbet, No one is saying that China has dealt with tĦbet in a perfect manner, but it is evident that tĦbet post 1959 is vastly different to the tĦbet of old. |
To me now of it is relevant now anyway. 2000 years of this shows that they are been a lot of back and forth on the issue. And quite frankly it is up to t¡bet to decide its own affairs. Just because millions of Han have decided to move into the place over the last 60 years at the support of the Han gov't doesn't eliminate them from have a larger say in what they want for their country.
No matter how you look at it, what has happened is not a good thing. Has it happened umpteen times before in this world, very much so.
The mindboggling thing to me is the complete lack of empathy of Han Chinese to the whole issue. Like they are somehow surprised that t¡bet rioted. In fact, they go to extremes to go out of their way to show more and more hatred to the t¡betan people. And not just within China and t¡bet, but protesting and organising prοtests in other countries like Australia to drown out the t¡bet voice....much like they have done to their country the last 60 years.
That more than anything shows what is at the heart of the matter, and its people. A sick and pathetic display of hatred and control over another nation which overall, when all is said and done, tried to live in a peaceful spiritual manner.
The Chinese above all should be ashamed and show empathy if not outright sympathy, yet they are the exact opposite. |
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Kiwi
Post Boaster
Joined: May 07, 2003
Posts: 4763
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Apr 25, 2008 - 06:51 PM |
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| pixelpunter wrote: |
| You know, it's debatable whether tĦbet was ever independent of China. To this day, no country has ever recognised tĦbet's independence. |
No it's not debatable. . .
Prior to the Yuan Dynasty t¡bet was not 'part of China' even by China's own reckoning. |
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pixelpunter
StreetBeater
Joined: Sep 15, 2005
Posts: 2199
Status: Offline
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Apr 25, 2008 - 07:54 PM |
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The mindboggling thing to me is the complete lack of empathy of Han Chinese to the whole issue. Like they are somehow surprised that tĦbet rioted. In fact, they go to extremes to go out of their way to show more and more hatred to the tĦbetan people. And not just within China and tĦbet, but protesting and organising prοtests in other countries like Australia to drown out the tĦbet voice....much like they have done to their country the last 60 years.
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The prοtests in Australia are in defense of years of being painted as the bad guy by the western media, and not a show of hatred towards the t¡betans. |
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The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it. |
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pixelpunter
StreetBeater
Joined: Sep 15, 2005
Posts: 2199
Status: Offline
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Apr 25, 2008 - 07:55 PM |
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No it's not debatable. . .
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Yes, it is debatable.
We can do this all day if you like? |
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The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it. |
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BlackAdder
PopStar
Joined: Apr 21, 2006
Posts: 1042
Status: Offline
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Apr 25, 2008 - 08:29 PM |
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you know CLM it's not the chinese burning t¡bet flags you see, it's not the rest of the world telling t¡betans to show restraint.
You can look at things through rose tinted glasses but t¡bet did not try to live in peaceful and spiritual manner, they murdered five of there own divine spiritual leaders.
I'm not good at using this whole quoting thing, so in replay to CLM, the whole mulitcultural thing and cultural tolerance, is not China saying that they are this kind of society the world is getting smaller, the world is becoming more multicultural. If you believe t¡betans should be allowed to ignore other cultures and be left alone in a secular religious state, then you support in theory regimes that are similar, and you know what road that goes down.
You talk about the lack of empathy the chinese have for t¡betans what about the chinese, they recieve biased news reporting, falsified and inaccurate and often distorted news, how many of us are shown pictures in western news of the woman in a wheelchair attacked for the flame, I know no Australian news outlet showed it, on the cover of every newspaper was pictures of free t¡bet prοtesters. The truth is yes china has state controlled media, but everyone has controlled media in one form or another. CLM you have so much sympathy towards the t¡betans yet the Chinese taste nothing but your disdain, there are over 1 Billion Chinese and countless millions of chinese expats who have been looking forward to the olympics and all that it represents what about the them, why should they have any less right to demonstrate support for what they believe in. Often in the west we live in a society that takes care of the minority over that of the majority, now I'm not saying the greater should outweigh the minority but then the reverse should also not be implemented.
When I said that the common denominator is that they all suffered the point is that the CCP did not single them out, they made bad decisions but everyone suffered. Yes the had t¡bet not been part of China they wouldn't have gone through the CR, or great leap forward, but whose to say that had t¡betan been still under the da1a¡ 1ama they would have abolished slavery. The one fact is that in the CIA backed push against the communists was unsuccessful due to the fact the average t¡betan didn't want the ruling class back, they made their choice from that moment onwards they made the decision to share China's fate.
We talk about democracy in India, just today I read an article in news.com.au, that a young women 28 and her new born baby, were both allowed to die outside an indian maternity wing due to the fact she was the lowest caste an untouchable, so the higher caste docters including the chief surgeon didn't want to touch her. How can we as a community come down so heavily on one nation then turn a blind eye to democratic countries that still have a caste system in place, we throw out big ideas like universal suffrage and human rights, yet we demand it on some more than others, where's the justice in that, where is the justice in Guantanamo Bay, where is the justice in the fact that Japan is allowed to ignore all war crimes and yet be allowed to judge the human rights history on the very people they savaged. |
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very cunning indeed
Last edited by BlackAdder on Apr 25, 2008 - 08:32 PM; edited 1 time in total |
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Kiwi
Post Boaster
Joined: May 07, 2003
Posts: 4763
Status: Offline
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Apr 25, 2008 - 08:30 PM |
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| pixelpunter wrote: |
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No it's not debatable. . .
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Yes, it is debatable.
We can do this all day if you like? |
Are you going to add anything of substance?
I know it's not your strong point but try. |
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pixelpunter
StreetBeater
Joined: Sep 15, 2005
Posts: 2199
Status: Offline
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Apr 25, 2008 - 09:19 PM |
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Kiwi, I'm not going to get into a discussion on t¡bet's independence from China with you, I think we already have quite enough on our plate at the moment.
And, it's considered good argument practice to attack what the other person is saying, not the person. |
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*CheerLeader*Mao
Post Roaster
Joined: July 07, 2004
Posts: 4678
Location: frenCh belgiuM
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Apr 25, 2008 - 09:34 PM |
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| pixelpunter wrote: |
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The mindboggling thing to me is the complete lack of empathy of Han Chinese to the whole issue. Like they are somehow surprised that tĦbet rioted. In fact, they go to extremes to go out of their way to show more and more hatred to the tĦbetan people. And not just within China and tĦbet, but protesting and organising prοtests in other countries like Australia to drown out the tĦbet voice....much like they have done to their country the last 60 years.
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The prοtests in Australia are in defense of years of being painted as the bad guy by the western media, and not a show of hatred towards the tĦbetans. |
Actually I would zero issues with the prοtests if that were the whole story.
Painting China as the bad guy all the time in western media is a little tiring, but the CPP really don't do themselves many favours in that regard.
And unfortunately the surrounding of t¡betan prοtesters, smothering their voice and screaming Liar Liar at them hardly seemed like a sensible way to drum up support for their cause. |
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Kiwi
Post Boaster
Joined: May 07, 2003
Posts: 4763
Status: Offline
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Apr 25, 2008 - 09:51 PM |
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Pixelpunter, something doesn't become 'debatable' simply because a moron decides they feel like 'debating' it.
Your words were "it's debatable whether TĦbet was ever independent of China".
Now unless you specifically meant 20th Century China (and you didn't) this statement is a load of nonsense - for reasons I have briefly highlighted.
There is no debate about the stupidity of your statement. It simply is a completely stupid and uninformed statement.
As for good argument practice, when a party in an argument repeatedly fails to back their position with anything resembling substance it makes sense to mention the fact. |
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[offensive signature removed by ADMIN] |
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dfoo
Post Roaster
Joined: Jan 19, 2005
Posts: 4140
Status: Offline
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Apr 25, 2008 - 09:55 PM |
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| Kiwi wrote: |
| pixelpunter wrote: |
| Quote: |
No it's not debatable. . .
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Yes, it is debatable.
We can do this all day if you like? |
Are you going to add anything of substance?
I know it's not your strong point but try. |
So that big list of treaties that I listed on the previous page isn't enough for you to at least open the possibility that it might be debatable!? Come now Kiwi, you can do better than that. |
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*CheerLeader*Mao
Post Roaster
Joined: July 07, 2004
Posts: 4678
Location: frenCh belgiuM
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Apr 25, 2008 - 09:55 PM |
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I will respond Blackadder. But just to point out not once in my life have I been called a China hater or that I hate Chinese.....except for the last couple of weeks where I have heard it from about 3 different sources.....or more. And 99.9% of what I have said was not against Chinese people but about their gov't and its policy on t¡bet.
Okay, to address the point about Western bias in the media about China.
1. I agree 100% that about 90% of what is reported on China in the media is negative. Also I don't feel it is an accurate description of the China I knew while I was there. I found the vast majority of people no different from anywhere else in the world. In fact, I have always said I learned more about what is good family and what are true friendships and dedication from the Chinese then I ever learned before.
2. I don't deny any Chinese-Australian the right to prοtest over here. Its a freedom given to all. I do find it hypocritical however when the Chinese embassy organized the demonstrations, paid for buses and whipped up a hyper-nationalistic front based on suffocating t¡betan prοtesters who want a more fair say in how their country is governed. As well most of the prοtesters were students who are not likely to be citizens nor have the right to prοtest their own media in their own country. Nor would any foreigner be allowed to do that in China.
3. I don't believe the west hates China. In fact, most people I talk to are quite interested in its historical cultural, its people, how they think and live and what is driving the country now.
| Quote: |
CLM you have so much sympathy towards the tĦbetans yet the Chinese taste nothing but your disdain, |
If it has come across this way it probably has more to do with chinese sensitivities then my own beliefs. I don't have disdain for China but i do have a problem with the way the CCP is handling this issue. I believe their should be more dialogue with t¡bet.
In terms of the Olympics you are probably right. Chinese should enjoy them and i am sure they will put on a great show. Its all about building bridges over time. If it wasn't the t¡bet issue people would probably be protesting something else about china |
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dfoo
Post Roaster
Joined: Jan 19, 2005
Posts: 4140
Status: Offline
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Apr 25, 2008 - 09:57 PM |
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| Quote: |
| Your words were "it's debatable whether TĦbet was ever independent of China". |
Except that isn't the core question -- which is, before you say otherwise, whether t¡bet is part of China now. It is undeniable, IMO, that it is. It is also undeniable that at many points over the last 300 years that it has been recognized as such by other, western, nations. |
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dfoo
Post Roaster
Joined: Jan 19, 2005
Posts: 4140
Status: Offline
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Apr 25, 2008 - 09:58 PM |
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| Quote: |
| And quite frankly it is up to tĦbet to decide its own affairs. Just because millions of Han have decided to move into the place over the last 60 years at the support of the Han gov't doesn't eliminate them from have a larger say in what they want for their country. |
Except it isn't their country. t¡bet is part of China. |
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