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black_bird
Ranter
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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May 08, 2008 - 08:36 PM |
 
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| much of what he did accomplish |
what did mao accomplish? |
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black_bird
Ranter
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
Posts: 594
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May 08, 2008 - 08:39 PM |
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the western view on revolution is always naively romantic and poetic. like a black n white foto of CHE on a horse.
shanghai was already the 'paris of the east' before mao under Guo Min Dang(Chinese Nationalists). many of my grandparents generation and their parents were actually educated oversea. cambridge, harvard, oxford..... my great aunt (86 yo) could speak fluent english because she went thru english sch when she was little.
25 years of going backwards. if it is not because of DENG XIAO PING china wont be where it is now. not because of MAO
if its not becoz WWII japanese invasion, the communist party probably wont even have a chance.
but you are right to a certain extend. china would have been depended on the west if it was continously ruled by Guo Min Dang. |
Last edited by black_bird on May 08, 2008 - 09:28 PM; edited 3 times in total |
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leidelaohu
Wonder Wit
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 3777
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May 08, 2008 - 08:54 PM |
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| black_bird wrote: |
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| much of what he did accomplish |
what did mao accomplish? |
He created a country out of chaos. You don't seem to know shit about Chinese history. Not that that is very surprising, given the media control and wonderful educational system here.
(Don't even bother starting. I know two ladies who teach chinese culture in high schools here.) |
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black_bird
Ranter
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
Posts: 594
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May 08, 2008 - 09:09 PM |
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| He created a country out of chaos. |
out of chaos? what a joke. after that it was total chaos.
sounds like you know loads of sh1t then.
so you believe in this xin zhong guo 'new china' thing as well?! so you believe in chairman made the whole china 'stand up', chairman mao 'jie fang' freed the farmers and labours out of the torture of their evil rich boss? in reality the govt took over all the private owned property and land.
and u believe in 2 chinese lady culture teachers.
being a chinese, i choose to believe in oral history of my family and friends.
(hey! Two chinese ladies aint enough a threat. I know a hundred, a thousand. In fact I am one chinese lady myself)
====================================================================== =================================================================
source: wiki
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Early Republic of China Era (1912 - 1937)
Shanghai was one of the largest cities in the world with 3,000,000 inhabitants in 1936, of whom only 35,000 were foreigners, though they were in charge of half the city. Many Russian refugees came to Shanghai. The Shanghai Russians were regarded as an inferior race by the Shanghailanders. A lot of Russian women worked as prostitutes alongside Chinese, Korean and Japanese colleagues. "The Great World" was a place where opium, prostitution and gambling came together. The Chinese elite was essentially divided into two sectors. One group was progressive and helped the nation modernize in unprecedented ways. The other was in search of power by all means necessary.
Shanghai Grand
During this period, Shanghai was known as "The Paris of the East, the New York of the West"[1]. Shanghai was made a special city in 1927, and a municipality in May 1930. The city's industrial and financial power increased, because the merchants were in control of the city, while the rest of China was divided among warlords.
Artistically Shanghai made major strides for the nation by becoming the home and headquarters of three new art forms; namely, the city was recognized and credited as the entertainment hub for Chinese cinema, Chinese animation and Chinese popular music. Other forms of entertainment include Lianhuanhua comic books. (Ive been told the newist movies from the west were shown in shanghai first during that period.people were really multiculture, my grand aunt,86, speaks fluent english because educated through female only english speaking highschool in shanghai. latest fashions from europe could be easily found in shanghai. after that period, 20-30 years of closing the door of china until DENG XIAO PING comes along)
The architectural style at the time was modelled after British and American design. Many of the most grand scale buildings in The Bund such as Shanghai Club, Asia Building and the Hongkong and Shanghai Banking Corporation building were constructed or renovated at the time. The city created a distinct image that separated it from all other Chinese cities that came before it.
Economic achievements include the city becoming the commercial centre of East Asia, attracting banks from all over the world. When movies and literature depict the golden days of Shanghai of the past, it is generally associated with this era.
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shanghai in the late 1920s. |
Last edited by black_bird on May 08, 2008 - 09:54 PM; edited 2 times in total |
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sbergman
Veejay
Joined: Sep 12, 2007
Posts: 2164
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May 08, 2008 - 09:42 PM |
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I don't think the revolution's goal was to help the wealthy educated Shanghainese.
His accomplishments:
emancipating women, abolishing polygamy, temporarily eradicating prostitution
universal education
medical care in rural areas
kicking out the foreigners (so when they came back in the playing field was a little leveler)
whatever movement has been made away from the selfishness of Confucianism
established an effective central government
improved life expectancy and literacy
successfully negotiated good trade terms with the West
established China as a world power |
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black_bird
Ranter
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
Posts: 594
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May 08, 2008 - 09:57 PM |
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sbergman, sweetie. of course there was an ideal society and i dont say that is wrong. because back then people really believed in the communist party, what it wanted to acheive and everyone helped to build an ideal new world. that is why people miss how 'clean' and 'ideal' the country was back then. --- it was never about money, it was to have dream come true.
but then everything all went wrong for a period of time it was hell on earth. because eventually mao was human and it is about power.
its lucky china is a large country. otherwise it will end up just like CUBA. |
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sbergman
Veejay
Joined: Sep 12, 2007
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May 08, 2008 - 10:18 PM |
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black_bird, I think the revolution was necessary specifically because of the view of Shanghai's elite who thought that because they were doing fine, the whole country was doing fine. All of the anti-Mao memoirs I have read were written by people who lost social standing and property. I have never read a critical account from someone who was not a landowner before 1949. Do you have one you could recommend? |
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PG-30
Reacher
Joined: Mar 22, 2008
Posts: 345
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May 08, 2008 - 11:18 PM |
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its very interesting for me to see that Mao is supported by some foreigners but opposed by a chinese....
black bird, Mao and his party DID creat a country out of chaos. i m not sure if you noticed that, right in your quotation of wiki, it said "while the rest of China was divided among warlords." you should have known there were hundreds and thousands civil wars in china during that period. from 1916-1928, only in Si Chuan province, there were more than 400 wars happened. can you imagine? and it is not chaos?
Yes, shanghai was "The Paris of the East, the New York of the West", but it doesnt mean china was the 'France' and 'America'. If China was a peaceful prosperous country under KMT, I dont think there would be so many people who took the risk of death to join in CCP's army. Do you really think, without any prerequisites, it was easy to make millions of people suddenly decide to die for a man? They almost had no choice! They either fought for themselves, or they would die anyways. They would believe in whatever party that stands up for them.
Despite the mistakes in the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, there are certain achievements of Mao can not be denied.
ps: i m not a communist , a nationalist or a patriot. |
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black_bird
Ranter
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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May 08, 2008 - 11:49 PM |
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i am not anti-Mao myself. and i am not opposing mao either. i never denied mao's certain acheivements. (the people's revolution army for example were one of the greatest army ever, very strategic when comes to fighting.) and i repeatly said that is maybe why today's chinese actually miss MAO a bit.
maybe i am simplifying the situation a bit, but my view is, if it is not because of the Japanese invasion, Kuomintang might still be in power and wouldn’t have fled to taiwan. because before the japanese occupation, the communist didnt have enough reason, money weapon or supports to rise as a strong enough opponent to KMD. but with the Japanese, things changed.
the mistakes in the Great Leap Forward resulting great starvation causing millions of deathes and the Cultural Revolution shouldnt be overlooked either. the whole country was paralised with no education. people die for no reasons at all and lived in fear. if your family's ancesters are not a labour worker or a farmer you are doomed. students beat up teachers, kids turn against their parents, all in the name of 'protecting chairman MAO'. and at the end they blamed all on his wife.
MAO wanted to keep his power, and there were plenty of people wanting his power. the best thing is to have everyone fighting with each other and MAO is still upthere. overlooking at everyone and reading his favourit history books.
Apart from ‘histories were not written in the history textbooks’, the main reason is people CHOOSE to forget. we all have short memories and rather want to forget about the pain. nothing wrong with that. and china indeed moved on.
responding to sbergman, physical property confiscations doesn’t represent pain. Mental fear and torture does. Memories? I have too much memories from my family, my family’s friends. If you are interested there are some bits and pieces i am willing to share.
Having said the above I am actually a firm supporter of today’s communist regime. Will I use the above to accurse ‘communist’ as ‘evil’ like many of the westerners do? No definitely not. Can u blame today’s japnese for yesterday’s invasion? No.
===============================================
TO LIVE is a novel by YU HUA.
if you are like me finding history books to dry to read you might enjoy this book.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1400031869/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link
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Last edited by black_bird on May 09, 2008 - 12:16 AM; edited 2 times in total |
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p1atl10
Board Royalty
Joined: Mar 18, 2005
Posts: 6255
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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May 09, 2008 - 12:05 AM |
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sbergman...
Much as I usually agree with you.....You seem to be pro-Mao?
For the good he did in the 50's....maybe
Cultural Revolution?
3 million dead, the literati and educated imprisoned, the coubtry set back 50 years...at basically his hands because of his policies?
versus....
(your points)
emancipating women, abolishing polygamy, temporarily eradicating prostitution
universal education
medical care in rural areas
kicking out the foreigners (so when they came back in the playing field was a little leveler)
whatever movement has been made away from the selfishness of Confucianism
established an effective central government
improved life expectancy and literacy
successfully negotiated good trade terms with the West
established China as a world power
BTW IMO....Peng established China as a world power and negotiated terms of economic expansion with the West.
Mao? pfffft |
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PG-30
Reacher
Joined: Mar 22, 2008
Posts: 345
Status: Offline
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May 09, 2008 - 12:14 AM |
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| black_bird wrote: |
| maybe i am simplifying the situation a bit, but my view is, if it is not because of the Japanese invasion, Kuomintang might still be in power and wouldn’t have fled to taiwan. because before the japanese occupation, the communist didnt have enough reason, money weapon or supports to rise as a strong enough opponent to KMD. but with the Japanese, things changed. |
so what is your point exactly  ok, lets say, KMT didnt go to taiwan, then what? you meant china would be better if its still under KMT regime? I dont know, the history would be totally different. Since history can not restart, I think no one knows the answer. |
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black_bird
Ranter
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
Posts: 594
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May 09, 2008 - 12:18 AM |
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mmm i think i mean to say shanghai was already quite advanced and quite opened in the 1920s. and indeed people miss that period a lot.
we cant predict what history might become if KMT stayed, but it did went backwards and did huge damage to china when GCD took over. and now shanghai is just getting back to where it was before and trying to be better.
but the whole communist history is just one piece of facinating material. before there is a saying of 'only communisim can save China', and now it is 'only China can save communisim'.
and yes i cant spell  |
Last edited by black_bird on May 09, 2008 - 12:33 AM; edited 1 time in total |
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PG-30
Reacher
Joined: Mar 22, 2008
Posts: 345
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May 09, 2008 - 12:28 AM |
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Cultural Revolution?
3 million dead, the literati and educated imprisoned, the coubtry set back 50 years...at basically his hands because of his policies? |
yeah, the cultural revolution was a disaster. Mao was blined by his ego and was too confident about his people. Some of the initial aims might be positive as Mrs. Bergman listed, but the process was out of control and turned in to a total mess. Though the aims were accomplished, the value China paid was too much. |
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black_bird
Ranter
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
Posts: 594
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May 09, 2008 - 12:34 AM |
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| Mao was blined by his ego |
that is true. and also, humans are not prefect.
and what i have mentioned before, of filtering out/ getting rid of ones enemy.
MAO wanted to keep his power, and there were plenty of people wanting his power. the best thing is to have everyone fighting with each other and MAO is still upthere. overlooking at everyone and reading his favourit history books. |
_________________
Blackbird fly,Into the light of the dark black night. - The BEATLES =) |
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leidelaohu
Wonder Wit
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 3777
Status: Offline
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May 09, 2008 - 01:05 AM |
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| black_bird wrote: |
mmm i think i mean to say shanghai was already quite advanced and quite opened in the 1920s. and indeed people miss that period a lot.
we cant predict what history might become if KMT stayed, but it did went backwards and did huge damage to china when GCD took over. and now shanghai is just getting back to where it was before and trying to be better.
but the whole communist history is just one piece of facinating material. before there is a saying of 'only communisim can save China', and now it is 'only China can save communisim'.
and yes i cant spell |
Thank you so much for the history lesson, ke wu de fang dong jie ... if I could impose upon you now to tell us how misunderstood Cixi was ? At least she was a lady, not a big-foot xiang ba lao like you.
Plates ? I can respect you as a person but you don't have a clue. Go back to peddling plastic and leave Mrs Robinson alone.
Another five years of the shit this hei ren spews and China will be right back where it was in the thirties, just another pesthole for the most vicious ignorant bastards on earth. Shanghai 'modern' - in your dreams, lady. It was about as modern as Chicago under Al Capone, except no Untouchables.
Ya know something ? It's never too late to have your feet re-sized. And maybe the males of your family should shave their heads and wear their hair in a ponytail so it wll be really obvious just what horse asses they are. The country was over-run by every two-bit band of thugs and hoodlums that came along for over a thousand years but oh no, according to you buffooons everything was dandy until that bad Mao man came along.
How can you be this stupid and still remember to breathe ? Sure, everything was fine for your family ... has it ever penetrated that thick skull of yours that that is why China is a backwards shoddy pesthole ? Becasue all you or anyone else here cares about is themselves ?
Luckily, you will get exactly what you deserve. Poor happyck, hassled mercilessly for trying to be rational while your kind wanders the earth unmolested spreading filth. Pardon me while I go puke. |
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p1atl10
Board Royalty
Joined: Mar 18, 2005
Posts: 6255
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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May 09, 2008 - 01:15 AM |
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Plates ? I can respect you as a person but you don't have a clue. Go back to peddling plastic and leave Mrs Robinson alone.
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So I was wrong?....
Mao was a Great Leader and a positve influence on China moving forward into the world?
History will look back and say he was a good guy?
Right....
(And I offended you how?)
Peddle it somewhere else Old Tiger...I stand by what I said.
In the totality of what he accomplished to China....history will show that he should never be listed as anything other than a disaster.
My only point.... |
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Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital ingredient in beer.....Dave Barry |
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hc
Post Roaster
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 4545
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May 09, 2008 - 01:40 AM |
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My take: Mao was the only guy with balls big enough to tackle the problem that has been harassing this country for 25 centuries: Confucianism and it's deep deep deep deep deep implications in society. It's cancerous impact cannot be understated.
To even consider changing this burden as a goal one must be completely, unshakably ka-razy, which he was (maybe we should use "determined" as an adjective instead of crazy).
Mao's predecessors were scum of the worst kind imaginable, as reported but frequently ignored (Stilwell's memories are a great start).
Of course blackturd's relatives remember how good and "modern" shanghai was, but go ask the 9 years working in the dark for 18 hours a day what THEY thought about the pre-Mao scum. Who the fk gives a fk about if Shanghai is the New York of the East or not?
Now, we could argue Mao's mistakes forever without reaching a conclusion. If you analyze the theory of communism and its evolutionary steps and the initial years of the PRC it would be a natural thing from Mao's point of view to think about making the leap once the initial post 49 tweaks were implemented. Add to that over reporting from the bottom up (and consequently a food distribution based on fabricated data coming from the provinces) and you arrive at disaster. His fault p1atl10? Hardly so. Blame the entire culture.
The CR indeed was a try to hold on to power against the Pragmatists, which in the end prevailed, as they should. Big mistake, but indeed a dramatic last act.
So, all in all the combination of idealistic dreamer plus fierce execution driven leader that succeeded was successful, although the price paid to transition from one to the other was very high.
The biggest problem still persists, and again only one guy had grapefruit sized balls to fight it head to head and guess what he knew that to eradicate it would require shock treatment. And he went for it. And no he wasnt the best guy to run the country, but he was the only one to unite people around a goal, be it for the good (unite the country) or bad (cling to power regardless of cost, aka CR).
"history will show that he should never be listed as anything other than a disaster. "
That's bullfeces and a very shallow view of what he accomplished. That's where the 5 last pages of Lonely PLanet would take you. Not good enoguh.
I think judging Mao as good guy or bad guy denotes a certain simplicity of thought that doesnt make justice to the topic.
We could all do better. |
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Click here to read the latest retarded PM Natalie sent me. Let's make her lose face and FINALLY leave this site. |
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leidelaohu
Wonder Wit
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 3777
Status: Offline
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May 09, 2008 - 02:16 AM |
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| p1atl10 wrote: |
| So I was wrong?.... |
Totally and entirely. You know nothing of Mao or pre-war China.
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| Mao was a Great Leader and a positve influence on China moving forward into the world? |
Yes. Without Mao there would be no China as we know it.
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| History will look back and say he was a good guy? |
If you read actual historians rather than Reader's Digest or the Time-Life Condensed Fascist History of the World, Hooray Mussolini and Hitler !, they already do. And have for fity years, in fact.
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| (And I offended you how?) |
Not at all or in any way. You are just totally and entirely wrong about this, that's all. I can be wrong about Delrin without your disliking me, I hope. You are mistaken about history without changing my opinion of your personality.
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| Peddle it somewhere else Old Tiger...I stand by what I said. |
And what you said is ignorant poppycock.
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| In the totality of what he accomplished to China....history will show that he should never be listed as anything other than a disaster. |
Just because you read that in the Washington Post doesn't make it a truism.
Look, Plates, for anybody elese I wouldn't bother. They want to be ignorant forever, not my business. But just this once ...
Look around you : I am sure you have tried to accomplish something here. And what have you discovered ? Altho people here seem intelligent, almost none of them can use their brain. The idea of cause and effect is alien to Chinese people. Logic ? What is that ? Abstract reason ? Right. We do whatever someone Big said in 1237, that's China logic. This is now the year 2008. Things were not better in 1920, trust me.
China never had an Enlightenment. China is one of the ignorant societies, like the fundamentalist Christians and the Muslims and the t¡betan Buddhists. They don't value reason. They never learned to think. People in China with doctorates still believe in hot foods and cold foods and when the doctor hands them some crap about their infection is caused by an imbalance in their diet, they believe it. Our beloved blackbird doesn't drink iced drinks or eat ice cream when she is on the rag, betcha five bucks. Some witch doctor with a bone thru his nose made that up the first time they saw ice here and everyone has believed it ever since. That's just the tip of the iceberg. This place is still riddled with superstition. Confucianism is still alive and it is totally debilitating. Before Mao there was no China because no one gave a flock for China, all they cared about was what grandma back in some village told them to do. (It's also a matriarchy, with everything both good and bad that implies.)
There was no such thing as China. There was just a bunch of families feuding and killing each other for power and wealth, like medieval Italy. It was similar to medieval Italy because the Chinese culture never had an Enlightenment. They never learned to value reason, the individual, law, equality, any of the things you and I and any westerner take for granted. Look around you and you'll still see those attitudes today. Mao should not be criticized for the Cultural Revolution - he should be criticized because it didn't go far enough !
Without the Cultural Revolution, without stamping out the four olds and tearing apart the vicious landlord society, without totally destroying the absolute garbage feudal society that was China, nothing new could take its place.
European culture took centuries to work through those struggles. China did not have that luxury.
Of course Chairman Fur could not control it and of course things did not go as planned -- hell, I'll bet you can't even get ten of your employees to show up for a company outing on the same day at the same time. Here is China, no one can. But by God, the son of a bitch accomplished more for bringing China out of the Dark Ages than any human in this country has for the past two thousand years. If you can't recognize that then you need your head examined.
If history doesn't take a nose-dive in the coming totally propagandized future (someone explain to me how we replaced John Kennedy and Martin Luther King with the stinking turds we have today ?) then Mao will be recognized as probaly the single greatest person of the twentieth century. If historians had to actually live here and see what he had to work with he probably would be elevated to godhood.
So put that in your pipe and smoke it a while  Mao was a very great leader, easily the equal of Lincoln and far more capable than Gandhi or any of the other popular heroes. The people since have been not so good, which explains why black_birds are proliferating once again. |
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black_bird
Ranter
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
Posts: 594
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May 09, 2008 - 03:40 AM |
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donkey man now i got ya going
blahhhblahhhblahhhh says the xiang wo ning who thinks he 'knows it all'.
so ignorant!!!! suffering from typical testosterone over-load brain-damage syndrome .
thinks he is the MAN , refuse to accept others having different opinions. sick!
yes economically china did went backwards during MAO's regime. -- and I shall say this again.
during the 1920s and 30s shanghai was already establishing as one of the asias financial center, today shanghai is just gaining its status. did i say 20s and 30s was better than today? no i didn't. but thats the typical 'good olden days' in every novel and movies so its not wrong to say people miss it.
but do we want to go back? no.
Confucianism is still alive? I dont know it ever died post-MAO.
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do you know what Cultural Revolution really means? and great leap 4wd or Three Years of 'Natural Disasters'??
let me tell you bits and pieces of memories of what it means to me personally.
*When my mum was young she used to kick human skulls as footballs on the way to school because they were everywhere on the road in GANSU. dead people. 3 years of 'Natural Disasters'. But was it really natural disasters? It was human disasters, from the agriculture policy of 'great leap 4wd'. ---- of having layers of different seeds in the same soil to 'increase production' and have 4 harvest seasons instead of the normal 2 to 'increase production' .
*where my father grew up the whole village was missing steel doors and iron pots. because anything metal got taken away or given away for 'producing steel'. that is, a big pot on top of a bonfire with boiling oil in the middle of the village, buring 24 hrs a day. they chuck metals in, whatever comes out at the end they weight it and times the number by 100 and ask for some verbal rewards from the local party leaders. perhaps even a 'big red flower' reward? all those figures add up together and reports to MAO.-- great leap 4wd of steel production.
no pots to cook? that doesnt matter. everyone goes to peoples commume to eat. everything is free there! but nothing is there. coz no crops.
*My mum saw how one person torned another persons mouth apart for grabbing a piece of bread out of that persons mouth, already chewed. one of my aunties borned in that time didnt survive. my mum's slibings, a total of 7, was splited and given away to 4 different families becoz not enough to feed.
* My mum's parents are faithful communists up to today. lead some small troops when they were young. good fighters for the revolution. once had security guards and cars because they were in charge of the city's transport system.
one day got thrown into some random jail for no reasons (niu2 peng2), got beaten up with a board full of nails repeatedly. My grandma lost all her hair through pulling, one leg is disabled still now, age 85. their bodies were full of holes. my grandpa fainted and they chucked him into rubbish bag ready to be dumped into yellow river. but my mum turned up and found out he is still breathing.
*They kept my grandma in jail and kicked my grandpa out to qinghai and t¡bet.
* My dad's teacher one day smashed chairman mao's statue when cleaning by accident, threw the rubbish out and got spotted by a neighbour. trouble started. they then found a piece of paper with a MAO picture on one side and the word 'tighten up' written on the back of the paper around MAO's neck. the next thing you know is 'he is planing to kill MAO'. and hence a 'rightist', its over for him, his students 'dou4 zheng1' him, beat him up to make him admit his evil plan, 24 hours light over his head. his kids turned against him and beat him up.
* do you know what 'Dou4 zheng1' means? It means 'fight'. It means people should watch each other's every move and 'kill' each other. for whatever reason that doesnt fit culture revolutions idea.
* My fathers' parents were poor farm kids. dad's dad made a fortune in shanghai as a self taught businessman and ended up with factories and properties. he kinda gave it away to the party, and feeling happy ---- feeling happy that he might have avoid an up-coming disaster because he was a boss and owned too much.
* They smashed all my grandpas antique collections. my grandpa burned the antique paintings before they took over.
* No universities for years. it is said Farmers and labours are the best class. if you want to find a job you have to prove your ancesters are farmers and labours. hence all the young people who should receive highschool education, like my mum, went to farm land and factories instead of studying. but some wanted to study. no chance.
* everyone prayed to chairman mao's statue 1st thing in the morning and before bed at night.
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for the sickening psycological experience it hence produced a healthy new generation and hence MAO washed out all dirts of the old china man? says the superior white.
never mind.
what it means to individuals never means anything to you! feeling doesnt mean anything to you. what people went through doesnt mean anything to you.
after all what can we expect from a testosterone over loaded brainy donkey man? he is only in love with his rightous westerner self.
am i a MAO hater? just like all other chinese I am not. am i bitter about the past? I am not either. i find it really interesting. do i have the right to remember the past? yes. and I think the future is brighter than the past. |
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Diomed
Reacher
Joined: Jan 30, 2008
Posts: 250
Status: Offline
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May 09, 2008 - 06:01 AM |
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lol, Mao's policies were only 30% bad, but 70% good people... I thought this was settled already.... |
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oh_the_darkness
Fire-eater
Joined: Apr 17, 2008
Posts: 2528
Status: Offline
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May 09, 2008 - 06:46 AM |
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| leidelaohu wrote: |
He created a country out of chaos. |
That quote is so hilarious it's going to become my new signature.
Jesus christ, leide-boy, can you read??
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_________________
And you may ask yourself Am I right? ...am I wrong? And you may tell yourself My god!...what have I done? |
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hc
Post Roaster
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 4545
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May 09, 2008 - 09:12 AM |
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leidelaohu
Wonder Wit
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 3777
Status: Offline
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May 09, 2008 - 09:49 AM |
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| oh_the_darkness wrote: |
| Jesus christ, leide-boy, can you read?? |
Maybe not. But I know that Miss Turd has an excuse -- she's a product of this estrogen-laden environment. What's your story ? While you are busy changing your name every six weeks and pouring the bowl of pablum over your head, aren't you darling, George Bush and the forces of ignorance are taking over. Is it time to grow up yet ? |
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p1atl10
Board Royalty
Joined: Mar 18, 2005
Posts: 6255
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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May 09, 2008 - 11:04 AM |
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Tiger and HC
OK....I give up.
You are 100% right...
- I know nothing.
- have never read a single article or book other than what my mommy showed me in Readers Digest.
- A debate is not possible because I am incapable of forming an opinion based on factys and exploration.
But...IMO
The Great Leap Forward (or Great Adventure) replaced feudalism with the establishment state feudal communes in 1958, and was not offically aboloshied until 1985.
The hukou system of today was first initiated in the cities in 1951, and in rural areas in 1955, but did not become a permanent labor control system until it becam codified in 1958. ...as a means to control the workers.
These communes were feudal in that they were contractually bound to the state, and were expected to prodcue a surplus. The peasants did not have the "freedom" to opt out of performing this labor. Service was compulsory
Sounds like a form Feudalism to me..
Advanced agricultural techniques and equipment were not supplied, as the expectation was that the enthusiasm and creativity of the liberated peasant laborer would find a way.....
Policies that resulted in the largest non-war caused famine in the history of the world.
According to the Cambridge History of China (oops!....must of got slipped in with my Readers Digest) the estimated number of deaths (primarily due to famine) during the Great Leap Forward was between 16 and 27 million people with over 10 million dying in 1960 alone (p. 370).
HC....Blame the entire culture instead of the "Leadership" whose policies of fear made it impossible for the cadres to report anything other than success?
Do not lay fault on the Leadership which chose to ignore the famine taking place?
(I will grant you that there is still considerable debate about how much Mao did or did not know about the scope of the famine in the countryside, but it was still the policies and culture insitutued by Mao, in defiance of more conservative Members of the Party, Deng Xiaoping and Liu Shaoqi that caused it. IMO)
Couple that with the results of The Cultural Revolution....and MY OPINION of Mao as a leader is that he should not be ranked within the 100.
Your opinion based on your readings and experience differs.
So be it.....
Cheers....
Cheers |
_________________
Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital ingredient in beer.....Dave Barry |
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oh_the_darkness
Fire-eater
Joined: Apr 17, 2008
Posts: 2528
Status: Offline
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May 09, 2008 - 11:11 AM |
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Mao was a complete **** to the Chinese people. He completely raped this country and the people in it.
Unified China? Yeah maybe, but even the great man admits that he could not have done it without the help of the Japanese. During the 'Chinese/Japanese War' (oh, I was under the impression that was WW2) the Chinese retreated so far that one US general is quoted as saying 'These people are cowards - they couldn't have retreated anymore of they wanted to'. After the Yanks obliterated Japan the japanese had no choice but to leave China, leaving Mao to 'unify' it as that other geezer fcuked off to Taiwan with all the gold.
After 'unifying' China he fcuked the entire country. No corruption? Are you out of your mind? Mao lived in absolute wealth (despite dressing like a pauper) while the country starved. He encouraged the youth of China (red guards) to act as his personal spies against their parents like **** 1984...
His legacy lives on. Look how the Chinese reacted against all this anti-China Olympics bullshiit.
Shame on you leide, you used to strike me as a man of a certain amount of intelligence, but now you're nothing but a third rate underh20.
See ya. |
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And you may ask yourself Am I right? ...am I wrong? And you may tell yourself My god!...what have I done? |
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