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sbergman
Veejay
Joined: Sep 12, 2007
Posts: 2165
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May 09, 2008 - 11:39 AM |
 
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I think judging Mao as good guy or bad guy denotes a certain simplicity of thought that doesn't make justice to the topic.
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Thanks, HC. That's all I was trying to say.
I think the need to see everything in black and white is the characteristic I find most annoying among the vehement posters on this site.
black_bird, Do you have a book to recommend that recounts how peasants lives changed before and after the revolution. I'm not interested in another memoir (not memory) written by some comfy elite who fled to the West and capitalized on the demand for anti-communist literature. I've read many of them.
Unfortunately, statistics on income distribution are not available for before 1949. I think leidelaohu is right that if things remain on the current trajectory there's more trouble ahead. People don't mind being poor when everyone around them is poor but it's a different story when guys still peddling garbage on old rusty bikes are getting knocked down by Audis and Porsches. It's a great way to prepare the soil for the next charismatic leader to shake things up. (some interesting statistics - http://www.undp.org.cn/downloads/nhdr2005/06chapter2.pdf)
And before this old tactic gets pulled out - no, I'm not suggesting that wealth distribution is better in the US. |
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TheDudeAbides
Rocker
Joined: June 21, 2006
Posts: 720
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May 09, 2008 - 11:43 AM |
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What I'm curious to know, is did Chairman Mao ever directly acknowledge Confucianism in and of itself? I mean in terms of it being a philosophy/ideology that he was working to reverse the impact of? Or was it more the general cultural trends and habits that he saw needed changing without really being specific? Reason I ask is I don't think many, if any Chinese I've spoken to are aware of the strong Confucian element in Chinese society, at least to the extent to which most people here on this board think it exists. Though the usual selective "good parts" of Confucianism more do seem to know about. |
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hc
Post Roaster
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 4545
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May 09, 2008 - 11:45 AM |
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"Advanced agricultural techniques and equipment were not supplied, as the expectation was that the enthusiasm and creativity of the liberated peasant laborer would find a way....."
You got it wrong Sonny.
There was NO equipment, there was no industry to produce them. The great leaders of the KMD (and to be true the actual warlords that actually controlled the country) could care less about the peasants.
Example: Japanese advance in the countryside they destroyed levees that together with stopping the Japanese killed thousands of their own people. Meaning: it's not that the peasants were all rich rosed cheeks happy people BEFORE 49. Mao inherited a state in shambles. The 50s did bring a lot of improvement, which is undeniable.
Yes, WARLORDS were running most of the country, not even the KMD. If it wasnt for Mao we wouldnt have one country, we would have several.
As for the famine, let's make an example here.
Let's say peasant A produces 100 tons but reports 150, he after all wants to look good and given the results everybody else is producing, he doesnt want to have his neck stick out. And let's say that the boss of his commune bumps it up another 50% to 225. The province head bumps it by another 50%, together what the great reports from everyone under him that things are oh so great, meaning total 337 tons were produced.
Now let's say you have to send 33% of everything you produce back to the central government (remember, this is a highly PLANNED economy), meaning he has to send 112 tons. Ooops, we just produced 100 tons... how are we going to survive now? Doh!
See where I am getting at?
Mao's fault solely? Several people at fault here, top to bottom (include FACE in it as well).
Remember another thing: agriculture in the early 50s did increase production tremendously, mostly because the country was in shambles before 49. This early success was Mao's demise actually, since he THOUGHT the country was ready to make the leap to another step in communism.
Obviously during the GLF he did many mistakes (small furnaces a good example), and I think he had pretty bad data at his disposal.
"The hukou system of today was first initiated in the cities in 1951, and in rural areas in 1955, but did not become a permanent labor control system until it becam codified in 1958. ...as a means to control the workers."
Dude, do you have any idea of what uncontrolled flow of people might do to a country? And we are talking about 100s of millions of people. Think about the infrastructure that is needed. I think you are looking at things on the surface only. My own country had perhaps a couple dozen million people migrating north to south and the results couldnt be more catastrophic.
Naive american bullshait "freedom" anal retention. I said this many times before: 1789, the Enlightenment and everything it represents never ever happened here to the level that it happened even in nearby countries (Russia and its student movements in the 1860s and 70s is a great example of that).
"These communes were feudal in that they were contractually bound to the state, and were expected to prodcue a surplus. The peasants did not have the "freedom" to opt out of performing this labor. Service was compulsory
Sounds like a form Feudalism to me.. "
That's COMMUNISM to you, that's not MAOZEDONGISM. Further, it would be pretty silly to expect the peasants to produce a deficit 
You are mixing Feudalism with Communism and looks like you are missing the point that in Feudalism means of production are privately owned whereas in Communism they are collective, which they were.
HC....Blame the entire culture instead of the "Leadership" whose policies of fear made it impossible for the cadres to report anything other than success?
Well, according to your theory the BS reporting wouldnt happen neither before or after Mao, since this was a leadership thing and not a culture thing. And you see posts all over the place today of local employees not reporting problems and waiting for them to blow up. I thought that since Mao was gone that wouldnt happen??? Uh oh, looks like the Mao is all bad theory is not so right is it?
Do not lay fault on the Leadership which chose to ignore the famine taking place?
Did I say anywhere that Mao was not to blame? And where did they ignore the famine? They bought grain in the world market. Remember that the supply chain of crop is long plus I'd bet the communicating and reporting were far from adequate which most definitely assured a slow response. Leadership to blame, together with everyone else.
(I will grant you that there is still considerable debate about how much Mao did or did not know about the scope of the famine in the countryside, but it was still the policies and culture insitutued by Mao, in defiance of more conservative Members of the Party, Deng Xiaoping and Liu Shaoqi that caused it. IMO)
Now you are talking my Sulabian friend! Exactly right: the Pragmatists were much more qualified to run things, although they werent qualified to crystallize the people around one central objective (reason why Mao was in control, you need to sell a vision before you actually manage to execute it).
Couple that with the results of The Cultural Revolution....and MY OPINION of Mao as a leader is that he should not be ranked within the 100.
I dont know man, this is not the NFL draft you know, and judging the whole thing is very complicated.
I think that you are judging the actual economic results more than anything, sort of ignoring the circumstances around it. And there is a reason for that: taking the circumstances into consideration is difficult.
But my question to you then is this: what do you think about the local culture, and would you change anything on it?
Or is it just right?
Well, if you are sick and tired of it, I've got news for you. There was a chap that was sick and tired and had the power and guts to go out there and change it, BY ALL MEANS NECESSARY as Malcolm X would say, change it once and forever.
He tried, and he failed. Do you see merit in this? I see.
If you ever complained about face, the unquestioningly deference to ancient values be them wrong or right, the scumbaggism and at the same time you dont give Mao credit for trying to get parts of this changed, then you might missed what he was really trying to accomplish completely and are just focusing on policies, kilometers of railroad built, and so on, that are also important, but that dont represent the higher goals of him as a leader. |
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hc
Post Roaster
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 4545
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May 09, 2008 - 11:46 AM |
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| TheDudeAbides wrote: |
| What I'm curious to know, is did Chairman Mao ever directly acknowledge Confucianism in and of itself? I mean in terms of it being a philosophy/ideology that he was working to reverse the impact of? Or was it more the general cultural trends and habits that he saw needed changing without really being specific? Reason I ask is I don't think many, if any Chinese I've spoken to are aware of the strong Confucian element in Chinese society, at least to the extent to which most people here on this board think it exists. Though the usual selective "good parts" of Confucianism more do seem to know about. |
Directly acknowledged plus unleashed a formal campaign against it PI GONG PI FU I think it was called. |
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hc
Post Roaster
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 4545
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May 09, 2008 - 11:58 AM |
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| oh_the_darkness wrote: |
| Mao was a complete **** to the Chinese people. He completely raped this country and the people in it. |
Very simplistic assessment.
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Unified China? Yeah maybe, but even the great man admits that he could not have done it without the help of the Japanese. During the 'Chinese/Japanese War' (oh, I was under the impression that was WW2) the Chinese retreated so far that one US general is quoted as saying 'These people are cowards - they couldn't have retreated anymore of they wanted to'. After the Yanks obliterated Japan the japanese had no choice but to leave China, leaving Mao to 'unify' it as that other geezer fcuked off to Taiwan with all the gold. |
Complete utter bullcrap. First, the war with Japan started much earlier than 39, so YES it was the Japanese/Chinese war.
Second: the biggest coward here was CKS, who was absolutely shiat scared of the japanese. It took an american general leading Chinese troops to score the first victory against Japan (Joe Vinegar) because CKS was too afraid and thought that the Chinese were inferiors to the Japanese.
Third: the communists, with fewer resources than the KMD also fought the japanese although using different strategies. Remember: the Lend-Lease program which Stilwell was here to supervise mostly how the KMD was using it and surprise surprise the Soong family was making a fkng fortune stealing money from their people. If you want to blame Mao for it, at least blame his predecessors as well.
Further: it took the communists kidnapping CKS to convince him to first fight the japanese, and then fight between themselves, so it was Mao and the communists that were really concerned with the country, while CKS didnt gave a crap about it.
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After 'unifying' China he fcuked the entire country. No corruption? Are you out of your mind? Mao lived in absolute wealth (despite dressing like a pauper) while the country starved. He encouraged the youth of China (red guards) to act as his personal spies against their parents like **** 1984... |
Who said no corruption?
I think that you are judging his entire legacy and equating it to the CR, which was indeed his last try to keep in power. The reporting of parents and stuff happened in EVERY communist block regime. This paranoia was constant throughout the soviet block.
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His legacy lives on. Look how the Chinese reacted against all this anti-China Olympics bullshiit. |
Complete bullcrap again. Lack of historical perspective. You need to look at the Versailles treaty to see where this all started. In fact, THE COMMUNISTS got a lot of momentum only after Versailles. That's where it all started: Hitler, the Communists, WW2, ... Blame it on Clemencau the old cnt (and kuddos for Churchill, John Maynard Keynes and Wilson for understanding what the impact of versailles would be).
You got your facts wrong and you are blaming it all in the most convenient way on Mao. China got raped before anyone else by the western powers that betrayed it in Versailles.
Now let's start calling each other names here! |
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dfoo
Post Roaster
Joined: Jan 19, 2005
Posts: 4140
Status: Offline
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May 09, 2008 - 12:02 PM |
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| sbergman wrote: |
...
I don't think that's true. I think many Westerners have great respect for what Mao set out to accomplish and much of what he did accomplish. He made some terrible mistakes and the cult of personality that he created was extremely unfortunate but I think many people believe that China could not have gotten to where it is without first going through the pain of revolution. |
I don't think that is true at all! The vast majority of people I speak with, even seemingly well educated, see him only as an evil murderous dictator. |
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oh_the_darkness
Fire-eater
Joined: Apr 17, 2008
Posts: 2528
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May 09, 2008 - 12:04 PM |
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I'm talking about how Mao is revered so highly - godlike - in China.
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| Who said no corruption? |
Someone back there did - can't be bothered to find out who.
Hey are you meeting up with me and ShUng later?
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sbergman
Veejay
Joined: Sep 12, 2007
Posts: 2165
Status: Offline
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May 09, 2008 - 12:33 PM |
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Let's say peasant A produces 100 tons but reports 150, he after all wants to look good and given the results everybody else is producing, he doesnt want to have his neck stick out. And let's say that the boss of his commune bumps it up another 50% to 225. The province head bumps it by another 50%, together what the great reports from everyone under him that things are oh so great, meaning total 337 tons were produced.
Now let's say you have to send 33% of everything you produce back to the central government (remember, this is a highly PLANNED economy), meaning he has to send 112 tons. Ooops, we just produced 100 tons... how are we going to survive now? Doh! |
This and failed economic policies are not uncommon. Mao just had the unfortunate circumstance of beginning with a good portion of his population at subsistence level. |
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oh_the_darkness
Fire-eater
Joined: Apr 17, 2008
Posts: 2528
Status: Offline
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May 09, 2008 - 12:44 PM |
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Or were they living under threat?
Produce x-amount or die? |
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oh_the_darkness
Fire-eater
Joined: Apr 17, 2008
Posts: 2528
Status: Offline
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May 09, 2008 - 12:49 PM |
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The whole 'Mao made mistakes' thing makes me laugh...
They weren't mistakes - they were huge great ****-ups.
Killing off sparrows as pests? Getting farmers to produce steel?
And yet the people did as they were told. Probably out of fear. I have met people that were around during Mao. Some told me stories where as kids they had no idea why they had to repeat Mao's quotes endlessly in school, others have told me how university-life was just paranoia central or (as in the case of one woman) her entire family shipped out to the countryside never to be seen again. |
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p1atl10
Board Royalty
Joined: Mar 18, 2005
Posts: 6293
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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May 09, 2008 - 01:00 PM |
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HC!
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You got it wrong Sonny.
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I love intellectual debates that start like this! 
No I do not, Pops! 
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Remember another thing: agriculture in the early 50s did increase production tremendously, mostly because the country was in shambles before 49. This early success was Mao's demise actually, since he THOUGHT the country was ready to make the leap to another step in communism.
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"1953 - China's "transition to socialism" officially begins with the introduction of the first five-year plan. Emphasis is placed on the development of heavy industry, centralised planning, and the build-up of defence capability, following the model pioneered by the Soviet Union, which provides technical assistance and aid. At the same time, the pace of the collectivisation of the agricultural sector is hastened and banking, industry and trade are nationalised.
Between 1953 and 1957 the national income of China grows at an average rate of 8.9% a year."*
Yup. And what did the "Great Leader" do in spite of there now being a system that was starting to work. Fly in the face of all logical extensions of economic theory and institute a iron fisted reign of state feudalism.
And the result?
"1958 - Mao launches the 'Great Leap Forward' to accelerate the development of all sectors of the economy at once. Breaking with the development theories practiced in the Soviet Union and applied to China during the first five year plan, the Great Leap Forward seeks to simultaneously develop industry and agriculture by employing surplus rural labour on either vast infrastructure projects or for small-scale, farm-based industries - the so-called "backyard furnaces".
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It soon becomes apparent that the Great Leap Forward is an ill-considered failure. Rather than boosting production, the Great Leap Forward brings shortages of food and raw materials and the demoralisation and exhaustion of the workforce. The situation is exacerbated by poor harvests caused by bad weather and by Mao's refusal to hear of failures.
In 1959 and 1960 the gross value of agricultural output falls by 14% and 13% respectively. In 1961 output drops a further 2% to reach the lowest point since 1952. Widespread famine results, especially in rural areas.
It is estimated that from 1958 to 1961, 14 to 20 million more people die of starvation than in similar years of poor harvests. The number of reported births is about 23 million less than under normal circumstances.
Other estimates place the number who die because of the famine at between 23 and 40 million.
Even as the population starves harvests are commandeered for export to communist countries in Eastern Europe. In exchange China receives arms and political support. In 1958-1959 seven million tonnes of grain are exported.
At the same time, while industrial output does leap by 55% in 1958, subsequent years see large falls - 38% in 1961 and a further 16% in 1962."*
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You are mixing Feudalism with Communism and looks like you are missing the point that in Feudalism means of production are privately owned whereas in Communism they are collective, which they were.
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So....if I "collectively own" the land.....why am I still shipping grain to the cities when my children are starving. I think you are splitting hairs here my friend.
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think that you are judging the actual economic results more than anything, sort of ignoring the circumstances around it. And there is a reason for that: taking the circumstances into consideration is difficult.
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Yes... I am basing some of my opinions of his leadership on, as you so nicely call it, "economic data".
When the reality behind that data means that somewhere around 20 million of the people have died as a direct reslt of your leadership. I tend to take "economic data" into consideration when assesing the quality of that "leadership"
Chairman Mao
Intellectual, Artist, Writer, Visionary? By all accounts
Penultimate Politician? Yup
Did much that was good for his country? Yes.
- raised the literacy rate from 10% to 60%.
- Abolished prostitution.
(although he did offer to send 10 million Chinese women to America in a meeting with Kissinger in 1973 )
- Instituted Health Care
Visionary Revolutionary with big brass ones? Yup
But......where would the country be today without the by-products of some of his policies, most specifically, the Cultural Revolution? Much farther ahead IMO.
Keeps him out of the Top 100!
Let's debate it over a beer someday....
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But my question to you then is this: what do you think about the local culture, and would you change anything on it?
Or is it just right?
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It is what it is, having been shaped and formed by it's history and events.
Not mine to say if it should be changed.
Like any society, there are things we can comment on that we like or dislike about the cultures and norms.....should we choose to.
I prefer to accept it the way it is
BTW. For anybody wanting a nice reflection on the Great leaders Life.
The NYT Obitituary of his death is too long to print here, but worth a read.
http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/1226.html
I also include the link to the offical Party announcement of his passing
http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/1226a.html
*http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/mao.html |
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hc
Post Roaster
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 4545
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May 09, 2008 - 01:01 PM |
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| oh_the_darkness wrote: |
The whole 'Mao made mistakes' thing makes me laugh...
They weren't mistakes - they were huge great ****-ups.
Killing off sparrows as pests? Getting farmers to produce steel?
And yet the people did as they were told. Probably out of fear. I have met people that were around during Mao. Some told me stories where as kids they had no idea why they had to repeat Mao's quotes endlessly in school, others have told me how university-life was just paranoia central or (as in the case of one woman) her entire family shipped out to the countryside never to be seen again. |
Tactical mistakes. Further, I'd guess that at the time the study of ecology wasn't as advanced as now, meaning, the cause-effect wasnt understood.
Again, you are judging him tactically, not strategically. The pragmatists were brilliants tactically, but perhaps not Mao.
And yes, they were big fk ups, I dont think any nation out there can say it never did massive fk ups. Think about it. Vietnam. Balfour. Chernobyl. Shiat happens and when it happens at that level, it happens in a massive scale. Think a train of feces coming your way and you are on your flip flops and a thin wiry umbrella. Not funny. |
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hc
Post Roaster
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 4545
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May 09, 2008 - 01:12 PM |
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| Batman10 wrote: |
In 1959 and 1960 the gross value of agricultural output falls by 14% and 13% respectively. In 1961 output drops a further 2% to reach the lowest point since 1952. Widespread famine results, especially in rural areas.
It is estimated that from 1958 to 1961, 14 to 20 million more people die of starvation than in similar years of poor harvests. The number of reported births is about 23 million less than under normal circumstances.
Other estimates place the number who die because of the famine at between 23 and 40 million.
Even as the population starves harvests are commandeered for export to communist countries in Eastern Europe. In exchange China receives arms and political support. In 1958-1959 seven million tonnes of grain are exported.
At the same time, while industrial output does leap by 55% in 1958, subsequent years see large falls - 38% in 1961 and a further 16% in 1962."*
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Exactly: 58 and 59 BEFORE the dips that you mentioned, they exported grain, which as you mention was common practice in the communist block.
He did buy grain later on, and true it was too late. Nobody is denying that. Remember: the grain supply chain takes one year to develop IF you have a good system accounting for production. Plus remember that we arent talking about one lubricated well run puppy here we are talking about production subject to big swings i.e. it would take time to know if it was a trend or not. You run a business you know what I am talking about. Obviously looking at the data today he was all bad. But back in the day I'd have my doubts of how much could have been done (although a lot could have been prevented).
Now, I think you shoot yourself in the foot here:
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It is what it is, having been shaped and formed by it's history and events.
Not mine to say if it should be changed.
Like any society, there are things we can comment on that we like or dislike about the cultures and norms.....should we choose to.
I prefer to accept it the way it is |
I see a lot of people frothing at the mouth and all "the chinese are animals" and complaining about the whole thing, but they dont want to change it. Everybody knows here (and you can see several hundred threads about it) how the local culture is backwards, yadayadayda.
Now, there was a guy willing to change it. He had the balls for it, and went for the big goal.
Nobody is giving him credit for that.
Everytime you catch yourself complaining about how China does things this way or that way, remember that there was someone that wanted it to be different, and he went for it, and that nobody gives him credit for that.
And the rest is history. We discuss this over beer one of these days. |
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p1atl10
Board Royalty
Joined: Mar 18, 2005
Posts: 6293
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
May 09, 2008 - 04:19 PM |
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I see a lot of people frothing at the mouth and all "the chinese are animals" and complaining about the whole thing, but they dont want to change it. Everybody knows here (and you can see several hundred threads about it) how the local culture is backwards, yadayadayda.
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Not once from me.....
Different than America? Yup
Backwards? Nope....different.
Hell...I think the only culture that has it actually figured out is Sulabia. And it might be too late for them
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Now, there was a guy willing to change it. He had the balls for it, and went for the big goal.
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Which I mention above.....
First beer is on me.
Off to a cold one now I think.
POETS Day! |
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black_bird
Ranter
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
Posts: 594
Status: Offline
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May 09, 2008 - 05:16 PM |
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wow thx for everyone's input.
MAO was a great poet, one of the greatest Chinese calligraphers, strategic Militarier, tactic politician (good at old school emperiors power control), a successful 'religious' leader. but unfortunately he is not an economist, and he didnt care about people living or dying under his regime. --- this is in contrast with today's 'technical' communist leaders.
Of course the ideaologies were great! But human all wants power. at the end it just became endless political power struggles. and the whole nation went crazy,lived in fear. people died for this.
anyways too much need to be said, i might come back and read through everything and post more 
xx
mao's calligraphy. (in the olden days red is for emperiors hehe)
I see MAO as a combined version of emperior and god figure.
sbergmen i am not good at books recommendation 
i know 'to live' is a great novel by ' yu hua' that most of the chinese loved. it is a novel but it more or less represents the experience and feelings people went through.
In reality i am not into politics, i am more of an art movie and music freak.
i read this one when my dad was still alive and he was reading it, was quite interesting:) u mite have already seen it?!!
source: wiki
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The Private Life of Chairman Mao is a memoir published in 1994 by Dr. Li Zhisui, one of the personal physicians of Mao Zedong, who emigrated to the United States in the years after Mao's death. The book was controversial and was banned in the People's Republic of China.
According to the book, Dr. Li witnessed Mao's private life on a day-to-day basis, mostly dealing with Mao at the height of his powers. Li alleged that Mao appeared anxious of the public but was indifferent to the problems of the Chinese people. It also shows Mao's signs of illness, paranoia, as well as neglecting dental hygiene (Mao's teeth were coated with a green-colored film, and when Dr. Li touched Mao's gums, pus oozed out).
The book details Mao's alleged personal depravity and sexual politics. It is also an account of the political intrigue within Communist Party leadership, excessive use of propaganda (like putting rice fields near railroad tracks), as well as Mao's excitement after President Nixon's visit to China, around the time his health started to deteriorate.
Dr. Li also writes about his personal experiences, the effects of the Cultural Revolution on his family, and his life as a doctor for 22 years in Mao's life, although he lost all his diaries and other corresponding evidence of his claims, and relied on his memory.
Following the publication of Dr. Li's book, two members of Mao Zedong's staff who still reside in China (including one of Mao's personal secretaries and his nurse - Wu Xu Jun - who worked for Dr. Li) wrote a book in Chinese in an attempt to refute many of Dr. Li's claims.
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Dr. Li Zhisui (李志绥, b. 1919, Beijing, China d. February 13, 1995, Carol Stream, Illinois) was Mao Zedong's personal physician and confidante. After immigrating to the United States, he wrote a biography of his experiences with Mao entitled The Private Life of Chairman Mao .
Weeks after he announced on a TV interview that he was going to write another memoir[citation needed], Dr. Li died of a heart attack in the bathroom of his son's house. He had lived with his son after immigrating to the United States.
Following the publication of Dr. Li's book, two members of Mao Zedong's staff who still reside in China (including one of Mao's personal secretaries and his nurse - Wu Xujun - who worked for Dr. Li) wrote a book in Chinese in an attempt to refute many of Dr. Li's claims.
As a physician, Dr. Li was interested in Psychiatry. In Octorber, 1986, Dr. Li wrote the Preface for the first Chinese textbook on psychopharmacology, "Psychopharmacological Treatment for Psychiatric Disorders." [Editors: Drs. Neng Cai (Tsai)（蔡能）, Hong-zhang Shi (史鸿璋）, etc., Shanghai Scientific Technology Publisher, May 1987]
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ps i havent read Wu Xujun's book yet. |
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leidelaohu
Wonder Wit
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 3778
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
May 10, 2008 - 02:48 PM |
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| p1atl10 wrote: |
| Your opinion based on your readings and experience differs. |
That's because I am not sitting out on the veranda overlooking my domain, ringing for Heyboy to bring me another mint julep ....
As sbergman noted, the people who dislike chairman Mao are the vicious landlords. There is a strong fascist streak in America. Republicans can also demonstrate that Herbert Hoover was doing an excellent job, that Roosevelt was a disaster, that Calvin Coolidge was the best leader the US has ever had. Truth is in the eye of the beholder.
By the way, do you have any figures on what percentage of the population Abraham Lincoln killed with his misguided policies ? |
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leidelaohu
Wonder Wit
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 3778
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
May 10, 2008 - 03:20 PM |
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| black_bird wrote: |
source: wiki
| Quote: |
| The Private Life of Chairman Mao is a memoir published in 1994 by Dr. Li Zhisui, one of the personal physicians of Mao Zedong, who emigrated to the United States in the years after Mao's death. |
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blacky, if you want to rouse the willing rabble, this sheet is great. If you want people to take you seriously, then don't ever cite one of these crapographies published in the US by "someone close to ..."
There is a cottage industry in the US of people publishing books critical of popularly unpopular figures. These professional liars make a career out of making the most ridiculous claims critical of accepted villains. It's kind of like Jerry Springer Does Politics. Sure, it makes the unwashed masses feel good about themselves and sells lots of books to the blue-haired old ladies in Florida plus the P1ATL10's up in the Beltway ... but anyone with a brain ....
| Quote: |
| According to the book, Dr. Li witnessed Mao's private life on a day-to-day basis, mostly dealing with Mao at the height of his powers ... It also shows Mao's signs of illness, paranoia, as well as neglecting dental hygiene (Mao's teeth were coated with a green-colored film, and when Dr. Li touched Mao's gums, pus oozed out) ... |
Yeah, right. Pull the other one, it has bells on. Have you ever had an infected tooth ? You managed to ignore it while pus oozed out your gums, right ? Sure. Didn't hurt at all. The world is flat and rides on the back of a turtle, too.
This is exactly the kind of crap that tells us this book is garbage. People who already dislike the villain can stand back in horrified awe, then rush to the back fence to share. Total fabrication but boy does it sell. Especially targeted at Presbyterians or Calvinists who abhor anything dirty !!!
| Quote: |
| ... although he lost all his diaries and other corresponding evidence of his claims, and relied on his memory. |
How convenient. Fucking liar. Con artist. Shyster. Conveniently emigrated to the United States right after mentioning that he had a lot of "memories" of how terrible Mao was and how he intended to write a tell-all exposé ... they probably even have a special visa for people willing to write nasty repressed-memory diaries. If this is the kind of "evidence" you're going to trot out, then just trot it right back into the barn because it is Grade A repulsive dishonest sewage. |
Last edited by leidelaohu on May 10, 2008 - 03:33 PM; edited 1 time in total |
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hc
Post Roaster
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 4545
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| Posted:
May 10, 2008 - 03:31 PM |
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maneo
Rocker
Joined: May 12, 2007
Posts: 760
Location: in a gadda vida
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
May 10, 2008 - 04:06 PM |
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| sbergman wrote: |
| I don't think that's true. I think many Westerners have great respect for what Mao set out to accomplish and much of what he did accomplish. He made some terrible mistakes and the cult of personality that he created was extremely unfortunate but I think many people believe that China could not have gotten to where it is without first going through the pain of revolution. |
Suspect that the vision of 邓同志 had more to do with where CN got to today than that of 老毛. |
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sbergman
Veejay
Joined: Sep 12, 2007
Posts: 2165
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
May 10, 2008 - 05:33 PM |
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| Quote: |
By the way, do you have any figures on what percentage of the population Abraham Lincoln killed with his misguided policies ?
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Tony the Tiger used to be my favorite tiger but you've unseated him! |
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oh_the_darkness
Fire-eater
Joined: Apr 17, 2008
Posts: 2528
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
May 10, 2008 - 10:53 PM |
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| leidelaohu wrote: |
| black_bird wrote: |
source: wiki
| Quote: |
| The Private Life of Chairman Mao is a memoir published in 1994 by Dr. Li Zhisui, one of the personal physicians of Mao Zedong, who emigrated to the United States in the years after Mao's death. |
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blacky, if you want to rouse the willing rabble, this sheet is great. If you want people to take you seriously, then don't ever cite one of these crapographies published in the US by "someone close to ..."
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Yeah, he's right. The Private Life of Mao is just a highly entertaining airport paperback.
Much as it pains me to side with ladyboy....
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_________________
And you may ask yourself Am I right? ...am I wrong? And you may tell yourself My god!...what have I done? |
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leidelaohu
Wonder Wit
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 3778
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
May 10, 2008 - 11:37 PM |
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| oh_the_darkness wrote: |
| Much as it pains me to side with ladyboy.... |
Oh well. I'm sure you'll get over it, then we can go back to throwing mud pies at each other as usual  |
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maneo
Rocker
Joined: May 12, 2007
Posts: 760
Location: in a gadda vida
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
May 11, 2008 - 04:19 AM |
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Hmmm.
Let me get this straight.
This is supposed to be a list of the "Most Influential People" of 2008, and the DL tops this list???
Isn't this the guy who admits he has has no control over those in Xizang causing trouble? He also has to beg western powers to urge CN to talk to him.
And this is called "influence"?
Doesn't deserve this award.
Didn't deserve the Nobel either.
Read somewhere that this list got started to fill a slow week and to make up for not getting Lindbergh's photo on the cover after his triumph. Looks like the wanks are getting back to their roots of making something up about nothing. |
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p1atl10
Board Royalty
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