Forum FAQ

Preferences

Watched Topics

Watched Forums

Beggers. What to do?

Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4 Next

Shanghai Expat Forum Index » Community Discussion Forums » Chinese Culture Discussions

Author

Message

XJHPhilippe

Lurker

Joined: May 09, 2008
Posts: 22

Status: Offline

Posted: May 11, 2008 - 01:39 AM

Begging is a job.

Those who donate money decide to support this industry and to prevent beggars from finding their next best activity. It's as simple as that.

Now, make no mistakes, this job is earning good money. Very few would accept a real job if they were offered any (no matter in the construction or delivery industry).

Also, you will have noticed that they show up in warm days only.
At home, I remember beggars to show up no matter the weather and to be far less annoying.

I never give them anything because I just don't feel like supporting them spending their lives begging on the streets. That's really too inhuman.

_________________
My sandwiches are dirt cheap and so are my drinks.
Now, if you want to pay double or triple the price for similar drinks, you can just do as well for sandwiches.

jtburns2323

Squeeker

Joined: Feb 01, 2006
Posts: 16

Status: Offline

Posted: May 11, 2008 - 02:50 AM

[quote="yu888"][quote="Essexboy"]

Lets put it in perspective. For many families, 200rmb is alot as its their ANNUAL income. ANNUAL...so you dont think org crime from those areas wont try to come into the city to generate that EVERY NIGHT form a team of beggars. Think about it. Sad but true.

This is a little off topic, but lets not overstate the poverty in China. There are certainly some families in China that earn less than $200/year, but I am willing to say that there are no families that earn less than 200 RMB/Year. Less than 10% of the population lives on less than $1/Day, so I doubt that many families live on less than 1 RMB/Day. I'm just saying.

jtburns2323

Squeeker

Joined: Feb 01, 2006
Posts: 16

Status: Offline

Posted: May 11, 2008 - 02:51 AM

maneo

Rocker

Joined: May 12, 2007
Posts: 760
Location: in a gadda vida
Status: Offline

Posted: May 11, 2008 - 03:58 AM

DesertSpider wrote:

I've found a new and improved way to actually make the beggars stop without causing incident.

Tell them that you only have a credit card and no cash, and the card you have is from your company and can not be used at ATMs. Wah-lah, 95% walk away without further complaining / pestering.

You could also whip out your camera phone and try to take their picture.
Wink

YorkshireKing

StreetBeater

Joined: Mar 16, 2007
Posts: 2365
Location: Loooooooooooooooooose in Luwan
Status: Offline

Posted: May 11, 2008 - 06:36 AM

During my time in Shanghai, I have given some money to beggers, but mostly food.

Example 1

Once in my first month, I spotted a young lad sat in the middle of the main pedestrian walkway on Nanjing Lu surrounded by all walks of life (chinese and western) and no one batted an eyelid at him.

He had no arms, completely severed from both shoulders, was gathering the few kuai up with his feet, 37 degrees C heat and looking hungry thirsty and tired.

Was he not worth a little compassion, some money to maybe secure his bed for a night and some food?? (part of a gang or not)

Did he chose to lose both arms??

Should I walk away from someone who possibly hasn't ever had the opportunity to earn his own way in life?

No one else bothered me - no one asked me for money immedietly afterwards.

Example 2

A begger in his 50's sat regularly outside the office with a written sign, explaining he was mute - his tongue had been cut off.

Now call me a soft touch but when I'm ordering in a restaurant near the office, and after the meal there is food left over, sometimes dishes barely touched - should I,

A) Throw it in the rubbish bin??
B) Let a hungry man eat it??

Not once did he ever ask me for money in 18 months,
I was always greeted with an appreciative gesture of gratitude when ever he received food - but not once was I ever hassled for it.

I would buy a beer or pay for a meal for friends and family without hesitation - because that's just the way I've been brought up to be.

I won't give to able bodied beggers stood outside a bars/restaurants obviously just looking for a easy pay out.

Would I want to be in some of the more unfortunate situations that I've seen??

Not for all the tea in China.

_________________
"So help me God I will kill you and you will stay dead this time"

underh20
Shanghai Royalty

Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 9902
Location: EOA Seminar

Posted: May 11, 2008 - 07:47 AM

jtburns2323 wrote:

This is a little off topic, but lets not overstate the poverty in China. There are certainly some families in China that earn less than $200/year, but I am willing to say that there are no families that earn less than 200 RMB/Year. Less than 10% of the population lives on less than $1/Day, so I doubt that many families live on less than 1 RMB/Day. I'm just saying.

I think Yu is talking about cash.

There are a large number of subsistence farmers who live off what they raise or barter and see very little cash. Try going to Gui Zhou province and you'll understand.

_________________
بارك الله ، بارك الله

yu888
Board Deity

Joined: Jan 25, 2003
Posts: 18042
Location: ZhongShanParkArea SH

Posted: May 11, 2008 - 09:36 AM

Yes, there are indeed families that live on barter and very very little cash. But unfortunately barter will not get their kids through school or give them much of a potential to do anything more than basic survival. Its a reality most expats never realise or never see, and honestly probably prefer not to see.

_________________
Thoughts & updates about Shanghai On my Blog for more details:Random Thoughts about Living in Shanghai...and more

underh20
Shanghai Royalty

Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 9902
Location: EOA Seminar

Posted: May 11, 2008 - 09:38 AM

yu888 wrote:

Probably a significant percentage of these families do not send their kids to school -- at least beyond junior high school.

_________________
بارك الله ، بارك الله

texasgirl

Barker

Joined: Aug 20, 2007
Posts: 198
Location: Austin, Glasgow, Shanghai
Status: Offline

Posted: May 11, 2008 - 10:10 AM

I can see where Essexboy is coming from, it's hard to deny someone who seems to have nothing when you have so much (and in the case of expats, waaaaay too much) but after an incident in Mexico several years ago, I don't give money to beggars anymore. I was w crossing the bridge into Juarez when I saw a little old lady sitting in the burning hot sun begging. Well, I can't pass a little old lady without wanting to take her home to be my abuelita (grandmother), so of course I pulled out a fiver to put in her cup. She grabbed that $5 out of the cup, lifted her apron, and underneath was, I swear to heaven, $500! It was piles and piles of bills. Mostly ones but a couple of 20's and 50's too. The old witch had more money than I did. That's the point I decided no more money for beggars. I will now give food or even buy a pint for the local beggar drunk by our flat, but money, nope, no more.

underh20
Shanghai Royalty

Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 9902
Location: EOA Seminar

Posted: May 11, 2008 - 10:15 AM

I wonder what the reaction would be if you offered the beggar a job for, say, 1000 RMB per month.

_________________
بارك الله ، بارك الله

oh_the_darkness

Fire-eater

Joined: Apr 17, 2008
Posts: 2528

Status: Offline

Posted: May 11, 2008 - 10:45 AM

Someone mentioned taking pics of beggars with a camera phone. I think this would deter them.

But a stun gun definitely deters them and it's much more fun.

_________________
And you may ask yourself Am I right? ...am I wrong? And you may tell yourself My god!...what have I done?

Handsome Stranger

Newbie

Joined: Jan 20, 2008
Posts: 4
Location: Nantong
Status: Offline

Posted: May 11, 2008 - 11:12 AM

I’ve been working in Nantong for sometime now and found that if I never look at them, just look beyond or over their heads, or acknowledge their existence they tire quickly and go to other prospects.

One night after a few drinks I was waiting for a taxi and a grandmother and very young boy approached me again, they had chased me down after I’d departed three different stores earlier and as usually I ignored them. While waiting for the taxi they were more aggressive and started tugging at my arm and the kid was trying to reach into my so I told them OK and opened my wallet and pulled out 5 RMB. I then proceeded to shred it into a hundred pieces and let the pieces drop at their feet as I got into my taxi. Seen them several times since but they have never approached me again.

By the way, I wasn’t born a *******. I’m a self made man.

sbergman

Veejay

Joined: Sep 12, 2007
Posts: 2165

Status: Offline

Posted: May 11, 2008 - 11:24 AM

Are the rose girls stilling hanging out around the bars? There used to be a bunch of young girls shipped in from the countryside (some abducted, some sold into it by their families) to sell flowers on the street. I haven't seen any in years but that's not my part of town.

SnappySammy

Board Legend

Joined: Nov 01, 2007
Posts: 10108

Status: Offline

Posted: May 11, 2008 - 12:46 PM

Shanghai Moonies

_________________
Yank My Doodle It's A Dandy

Essexboy

Lurker

Joined: Apr 07, 2008
Posts: 21

Status: Offline

Posted: May 11, 2008 - 05:44 PM

Several issues here.
1) Rich to poor ratio. Yep money to burn, that's me. In the UK I lived in a two bed tenement flat without a bath. Out here, on the same salary, I'm feeelthy reech (said with Mexican accent). The min to max income in China is IMHO unsustainable and rightly so on moral grounds. Long term that's the sort of situation which leads to trouble. I've not been here that long, couple of months, and I've given away everything under 1RMB and some whole ones too. In total, less than one beer at Paulaners. In the grand scheme of things, I can indeed afford it.

2) Guilt. Maybe I'm a naive ‘stupid foreigner’ (I forget the Chinese phrase) but just a thought folks, why are you trying to justify not giving due to the mob, and pointing out your charity work?

3) Harassment. Mostly I'm not walking in the expat areas so I don't have much of a problem. I mention this just as a strategy. If I'm accosted, I pull out these coins that are nearly worthless to me, I give them out and the beggars go away. No doubt someone will be quoting this section later.

4) Organised crime, well organised harassment? I accept yu888's voice of reason on shexpat. Do you think that applies to all of them? I'd say the granny on Wei Fang Lu and the busking couple outside Centry Avenue don't look like they were shipped in. Here's a controversial angle: so the kids on loan get clothes and food out of the deal then?

5) Incentives. I am most surprised to be arguing this because I don't give to beggars in the UK. I've given money and seen them later buying fags n booze. Pisses me off. I've offered them food instead and they just want money. So in the UK I buy a Big Issue instead, which is a magazine available to all homeless, they buy it for about $1 and sell it for about $2. I also prefer the teach to fish principle. However in S/H I have given food and seen it devoured in a way that suggests some of these beggars really are hungry. I am happy to give my apple to those people.

6) Charity donations. Which local charity wants 0.6 RMB in coins? I suppose I could collect them all, go down the bank and change them (if I can manage the translation), then post the notes somewhere, but to me that defeats the point. There are local collectors I walk past every day. Some may be less deserving, so there's an overhead. The charities for which I have bank payments have about 30-40% published overhead, and I believe lose some at the far end too.

That_Chinese_Girl
Veejay
Veejay

Joined: Oct 08, 2007
Posts: 2038

Posted: May 11, 2008 - 05:54 PM

Essexboy wrote:

but just a thought folks, why are you trying to justify not giving due to the mob, and pointing out your charity work?

Personal choice. But I see your point.

Essexboy wrote:

in S/H I have given food and seen it devoured in a way that suggests some of these beggars really are hungry. I am happy to give my apple to those people.

Good for you. I'd like to do that too. But how do you know which ones want your food and which ones only want your money? I'm afraid of rejections (getting my food thrown back at me) or insulting the beggars. (I know, it sounds dumb.) Embarassed

amig

Barker

Joined: Apr 26, 2007
Posts: 125
Location: suburbia
Status: Offline

Posted: May 11, 2008 - 05:56 PM

Beware of these cons.
Cars driven by expats being hit by a cyclist from behind. The cyclist will pretend to fall and demands for compensation. With the commotion on the road and the huge crowd turning up, expat is forced to pay Y100-200.
A chinese couple walking along the Huai Hai Lu pretending to have lost all their belongings and money. Need to go back Beijing. Beg you for money.
The blind violinist with an old lady. You can find 4 in one night along Huai hai Lu area....someone must be training these violinists to busk on the streets.

sbergman

Veejay

Joined: Sep 12, 2007
Posts: 2165

Status: Offline

Posted: May 11, 2008 - 07:47 PM

Essexboy, One solution would be to sign on with one of the weekend schools for the children of migrant workers. My husband teaches English with one of these groups for a couple hours every other weekend. It's a nice way to support Shanghai's neediest folks in a more sustainable way. I'd be happy to PM you some contact info if you're interested.

TheDudeAbides

Rocker

Joined: June 21, 2006
Posts: 720

Status: Offline

Posted: May 11, 2008 - 08:32 PM

I think as with a lot of other things, the longer you've been in China the more you develop a sense for who's trying to pull one over on you and who's not. Which part of town you're in, the "act" they're pulling to get you to pay up, the general sense you get from them, that basically is the difference between me giving some change or not.

As for getting rid of them, generally telling them to bugger off in Chinese does the trick, though do you get persistent ones sometimes, just keep walking and they usually get the hint.

vellocet

Barker

Joined: Apr 16, 2004
Posts: 141
Location: Ningbo
Status: Offline

Posted: May 11, 2008 - 09:34 PM

Code:

I'd say the granny on Wei Fang Lu and the busking couple outside Centry Avenue don't look like they were shipped in.

They're professionals. That's their job, it's what they do. Of course they don't look fake, and at any rate you're too green to detect it anyway.

So, from your diatribe above, it seems that you're hell-bent on giving money away and just wanted to post here to get reassurance that you're not funding organized crime. Giving money to beggars does indeed give money to violent gangsters, but I suppose the pangs of guilt felt by a foreigner outweigh this sort of practicalism. Face it man, your feelings are being played like a piano by experienced hucksters.

If you'd like to actually give money instead of helping criminals, put a 5RMB note into an empty plastic water bottle, then throw it in the trash. The recyclers will find it. Although, the recyclers work for a living - I suppose they're not worthy of charity. Only those whose job is looking pitiful can justify the giving impulse.

Essexboy

Lurker

Joined: Apr 07, 2008
Posts: 21

Status: Offline

Posted: May 12, 2008 - 01:06 AM

Wow vellocet, you assume so much. Did I not say that begging was their job? Just a mention, I was born in Zambia, do you know much about Africa? I object to my comments described as diatribe, although I will defend strongly your right to freedom of expression. Did you actually read my post?
1) my usual donations are to beggars that I do not believe are part of organised crime.
2) Where I make a misjudgement and fund the gangs, a small % still ends up with people who need it
3) I give away food too which does organised crime no good
4) any activity by anyone (work/charity/my company/ yours) results in more money for the people up top, you are a fool to think otherwise.
5) false positives and true negatives are part of any judgement call you and I will ever make. That's how life works. Sometimes I will give money to gang sponsored beggars. Sometimes I won't because the person to whom I give that apple really was hungry. My choice is to err on the side of false positives, because I can afford it either way. Do you want me to stop?

TCG, I have yet to have food refused or thrown back. They all want money but if instead I offer what I have (apple/orange/tangerine/egg mango etc) it has so far been accepted gratefully. They wave a cup at me, I offer fruit. Eventually someone will object but it has not happened so far.

yu888
Board Deity

Joined: Jan 25, 2003
Posts: 18042
Location: ZhongShanParkArea SH

Posted: May 12, 2008 - 09:09 AM

Ultimately, its your choice. (I think I said that earlier but it may have gotten buried under all this talk of organized crime). You have every right to give your money and make that judgement call. Its just that many or enough people seem to have poor judgement and that keeps thos "professional" organized beggar groups to thrive.

And yeah, having given food on numerous occassions, even to those who are obviously part of a ring, its never been turned down.

_________________
Thoughts & updates about Shanghai On my Blog for more details:Random Thoughts about Living in Shanghai...and more

dfoo

Post Roaster

Joined: Jan 19, 2005
Posts: 4140

Status: Offline

Posted: May 12, 2008 - 09:16 AM

Quote:

3) Harassment. Mostly I'm not walking in the expat areas so I don't have much of a problem. I mention this just as a strategy. If I'm accosted, I pull out these coins that are nearly worthless to me, I give them out and the beggars go away. No doubt someone will be quoting this section later.

The irony. You respond to harassment by giving them money... thus reinforcing that harassment is a valid strategy. Therefore, these bastards harass me! The beggars are a social nuisance, and you reinforce their bad behavior. Nice one.

Money money money! Zou kai! Zou kai! bei peng wo!

dr3x320

Rocker

Joined: Nov 21, 2006
Posts: 638
Location: Boston + Pudong
Status: Offline

Posted: May 12, 2008 - 10:28 AM

My mother told me that most of the beggers who are able to walk and speak and run up to you, most likely are doing it to hustle you out of cash, but the guys who don't have all their limbs, or physically injured, that can't be fabricated. I "occasionally" give a few Mao's to the guys w/o limbs but the girls and boys who run and beg in front of you in the subway and stalking you, sorry but mr. jiggaman needs to get a j.o.b.

_________________
Boston ™ Shanghai ™ Goteborg ™

oh_the_darkness

Fire-eater

Joined: Apr 17, 2008
Posts: 2528

Status: Offline