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Expat to Shanghai - Salary?

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Celmeo

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Joined: Aug 06, 2008
Posts: 3

Status: Offline

Posted: Aug 06, 2008 - 09:15 PM
Post subject: Expat to Shanghai - Salary?

I got a problem, would appreciate if someone could give me some advice.

Company background: Small/medium sized manufacturing MNC based in a small European country (lets call it country ABC). Privately owned. Has several subsidiaries in other countries. Total corporate turnover at $N00,000,000 - N is some number between 1 and 5. Subsidiary in Shanghai with about 100 staff.

My background: Graduated from the top university in Europe. Grew up in country ABC. Working experience is a whooping total of 6 month. Excellent language knowledge of ABC (noone who has not lived here would have learned this), English -and- mandarin Chinese. Masters degree in a science subject, nothing to do with economics, manufacturing or management.

Situation: Joined the company 5 months ago and we agreed on €3k/monthly salary. Recently talked with the company owner, also CEO, and informed him of an general interest in our subsidiary in Shanghai, China. He suggested I take the position as HR and Finance manager there.

Problem: We have not talked about the salary at all since signing up. I had expected a salary review after 3 or 6 months as is the norm in this country, but recently found out this is not the norm of this company. Thus I am going to bring this subject up myself as soon as we hit the 6 month benchmark. €3k a month is above average for graduates in this country, but regardless I am not really satisfied with it... especially considering the increased responsibilities in the new role in Shanghai... What would be a good expatriate(from Europe) salary for this kind of position in Shanghai? Please note my unique position of being one of the very very few people in the world with such education and fluent in the three languages vital for us.

Would €5k/m be realistic, pessimistic or optimistic?

MoonOverMiami
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Raver

Joined: Jan 07, 2008
Posts: 461

Posted: Aug 06, 2008 - 09:37 PM

Generally speaking, your lack of experience is what is going to hurt you. Perhaps you can check with HR to see what is the expected salary of a similar position at your company in ABC and Shanghai (if they have data on Shanghai).

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Renovator

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Joined: Apr 18, 2007
Posts: 488
Location: Century Park & MA,USA
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Posted: Aug 06, 2008 - 09:46 PM

It is always greed that kills the deal!!! A greedy employee loses his employment with a company while a greedy employer loses his employees. Competition amongst employers for your skill determines your value to a company. This value can change rapidly depending on a company's shift in goals as well as your contribution and attitude toward your company. It is up to you to negotiate a fair day's pay for a fair day's work with your employer.

It is really not up to strangers that don't know much about you or your industry to give you any advice in this matter. No mattter what you negotiate, some will always be making more than you for the same position while others will be making less. Those that are overpriced, will be the first to be let go when the company finances are strained. Employers look for value in their employees just like you look for value in any of your purchases.

Good luck.

torontoshanghai

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Joined: July 04, 2007
Posts: 67
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline

Posted: Aug 07, 2008 - 12:34 PM

You are in the range you should be. 5K is far too high

catur

Talker

Joined: Feb 16, 2005
Posts: 109

Status: Offline

Posted: Aug 07, 2008 - 12:52 PM

At this point in your life, worry more about getting the best work and life experiences, and less about the money. Coming to Shanghai for a good company with a large office is a great experience. Work, learn and enjoy this wonderful city...you shouldn't ever regret it.

Bohica

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Joined: July 25, 2008
Posts: 292

Status: Offline

Posted: Aug 07, 2008 - 01:39 PM

Agree with Catur. At this stage of your career / life go for the experience.

You will learn more (good and bad) here in 2 years than you will in a lifetime staying in ABC. You will add a lot of value in your career as Asia becomes a more important player in global economy.

I know that's easy for someone else to say - but it's advice from someone who has done it at other stages of my career. Remember it's not the destination, it's the journey.

Celmeo

Newbie

Joined: Aug 06, 2008
Posts: 3

Status: Offline

Posted: Aug 07, 2008 - 02:25 PM

Thank you all for the advice, it is what I initially thought as well. However, the concern started from discussions with my friends who graduated with me (yes, same work experience) - some (okay... one) of them are making 50% of what I am for very similar work + 150% more in benefits - i.e. triple what I am. You can understand that this irks me alot, especially considering that I feel I have better qualifications than them due to my native-like language skills in multiple languages and slightly better academic achievements. Universities should have a "negotiating your salary" course...

januza

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Joined: Jan 24, 2007
Posts: 409

Status: Offline

Posted: Aug 07, 2008 - 03:31 PM

Dont think so much about the money. You dont have family that you need to support.. Just come out and enjoy the experience and proof urself and then you will see the better salary. If you do work hard, you will be rewarded out here.

MoonOverMiami
Raver
Raver

Joined: Jan 07, 2008
Posts: 461

Posted: Aug 07, 2008 - 04:28 PM

If you're upset with the benefit that you're friend is making, why continue to work for the same company? Look for another.

Better yet, like everyone else said, use this as a stepping stone to gain some valuable international experience. Work two or more years while in Shanghai, then look for something better.

Besides, you can live quite nicely on €3k/m here in Shanghai. What you may want to do is negotiate the living expenses (eg rent, car&driver, utilities) to be included on top of your salary while stationed in Shanghai.

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jarrmatey

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Joined: Apr 18, 2007
Posts: 99
Location: Shanghai
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Posted: Aug 07, 2008 - 04:59 PM

Get off the education high horse and set the ego aside. You've got a next to no experience and a science degree and you're going to be doing HR/Finance? Take the experience opportunity and run with it- you'll get a much better payout in the long run if you use some foresight. I would imagine somewhat of a bump in pay being that this would be a promotion where you're being relocated, but not for the resons that you seem to think you're entiled to. There's too much of that with people coming out of school with only the proven ability to study and take tests. I would make sure that every item is clear on what they're offering like mentioned above- it can get pretty extensive including how you're taxed, living expenses returns home ect... you can search all that on this site.

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Humac
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Joined: July 07, 2007
Posts: 250

Posted: Aug 07, 2008 - 06:03 PM

^ Exactly. I was a little bothered by the "top university in Europe" comment...there's no such thing.
As for "Please note my unique position of being one of the very very few people in the world with such education and fluent in the three languages vital for us." Tell that to a prospective employer and I suspect he/she'd run a mile.

Celmeo

Newbie

Joined: Aug 06, 2008
Posts: 3

Status: Offline

Posted: Aug 07, 2008 - 08:10 PM

Humac wrote:

There are -several- universities in Europe that would rank at the top by any standard, there is more to the world than just the Ivy league... ... ... I complete agree with the second part though. That's exactly why people wouldn't word it that way when talking to their employer. >.>

Miami:
I would prefer not like job hopping as I hold loyalty as an important value. I'm rather uncomfortable with the idea of using my employer just as a stepping stone.

Jarr:
Why someone gets assigned to this type of role without experience is... interesting. But regardless, compensation should match responsibilities and I simply cannot see anyone from this country accepting an important management role for just 3k.

Humac
Reacher
Reacher

Joined: July 07, 2007
Posts: 250

Posted: Aug 07, 2008 - 08:18 PM

^ I was unclear. I meant to say that there is no one "top" university in Europe. Top for what? Depending on subject, then there is a long list of "top" universities but no single "top" university. Sorry for the confusion. I have no knowledge of American universities so not qualified to comment on them.

mjk

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Joined: Mar 02, 2008
Posts: 13

Status: Offline

Posted: Aug 07, 2008 - 09:15 PM

Celmeo wrote:

...are making 50% of what I am for very similar work + 150% more in benefits - i.e. triple what I am. You can understand that this irks me alot,...

I was in a similar situation 6 years ago. Came to Asia as a fresh grad, and made less than my friends at home. I put in a lot of hard work and now I make at least three times as much as they do.
You won't regret the move, even if it's just for the experience.

Jimmy_Floyd

Barker

Joined: Jan 11, 2008
Posts: 143

Status: Offline

Posted: Aug 08, 2008 - 10:32 AM

Is 3000 Euros a month before or after tax? I'm from the UK, but lived most of my life in Germany, both two of the more expensive countries in Europe, and I'd say 3000 a month is a really good salary for a fresh graduate (perhaps notwithstanding some of them city-type jobs in London). What makes you think this isn't such a great deal?

30,000 RMB a month isn't too bad a salary here, even for some on full expat packages (ok, they may have housing, car allowance and whatever else on top of that, but they're very unlikely to have come straight out of university and got that deal). I wouldn't be too concerned with quibbling over salary, just come out here, get some experience, and start saving (or blowing) some of that money.

In spite of what people may try telling you on here, living in Shanghai is significantly cheaper than anywhere in (western) Europe, and if anyone says otherwise, they're lying. Either that or going to Irish bars, eating at French restaurants, and getting ripped off by hookers every day.

Michael

Moderator

Joined: Mar 22, 2002
Posts: 5291

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Posted: Aug 08, 2008 - 10:52 AM

It really depends on the size of the company and budget the particular hiring unit controls. A mid size company is not going to pay $1M a year for an experienced CEO to run a $1M business unit. The revenue, function, and contribution to the whole company has to run a payroll that scales to these items. Everything scales.. there are CEOs and Country Manager here making less than 30K RMB a month and HR directors making more.

If you have a 3K Euro job here, you will do OK. Meet the commitment of your contract and do the best job you can. Stick around for at least a couple years and then decide if you want to make more. The best way to make more is to move to another company. Once you start out at certain level, often the best that can be had is a xx% increase unless you are getting promoted. Not too many bosses are going to double your salary just because your college buddie at XYZ is earning more.

marco_polo

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Joined: May 29, 2008
Posts: 4

Status: Offline

Posted: Aug 10, 2008 - 05:57 PM

maybe negotiate a little bit but don't be too greedy. it's all in the delivery. if it's a new operation and they won't budge on salary try to tie in a performance bonus.

you are lucky a company is sending you over there. i have 10+ years in sales and marketing and am fluent in mandarin and i might have to teach english when i get over there. i'd take your job for 1000RMB less if i could get it.

GirlatWork

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Joined: Feb 14, 2006
Posts: 471

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Posted: Aug 10, 2008 - 06:22 PM

With a Master degree in a science subject, how qualified are you to be an HR/ Finance manager? It's strange enough for HR and Finance to be handled by the same person anyway. You need to be at least a CPA to be in Finance and an HR specialist (major of your degree) to be the head of HR. And they are both cost centers anyway.

italian-in-SH

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Joined: June 28, 2008
Posts: 55

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Posted: Aug 10, 2008 - 08:17 PM

Man, I have a masters degree from the LSE, but I was not so fussy during my first job hunting. The fact that you have a science background, but your company is sending you here to work as a HR/Finance manager is already a remarkable thing (although it leaves me perplex from a corporate perspective). Do not think about the money at this stage. Think about the experience. After all, YOU GRADUATED 5 MONTHS AGO.

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GJMG

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Joined: June 09, 2008
Posts: 38
Location: On the way to Sydney
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Posted: Aug 13, 2008 - 06:35 PM

AT 5k/months, You are definitely over-paid. Your position can be easily filled with someone local (but may have studied and worked overseas) at Euro 2-3k /month , who will be much more experienced and do at least as well as you could.

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kikibroom

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Joined: July 24, 2008
Posts: 15

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Posted: Aug 15, 2008 - 04:22 PM

Calculate the mean of your best 5 friends' salary - that's the one you may expect.

Wasabichez

PopStar

Joined: Dec 05, 2002
Posts: 1225
Location: Shanghai, China
Status: Offline

Posted: Aug 20, 2008 - 01:19 AM

Man Euro3K per is already A LOT for China expat packages as they are already shrinking. I don't think you need to ask for 5K. Of course this is under the supposition that they are also paying for housing and maybe also giving you a car and driver and maybe some other stuff? And if you get a raise of lets say up to 3.5K (just to downplay the possibility), that is still quite a nice package. Instead of jacking up your actual pay too much you should ask how the benefits/sufferance package will be like.

Taikonaut

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Joined: July 03, 2008
Posts: 31

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Posted: Aug 20, 2008 - 10:41 PM

Asking for 60% increase in wages after 6 months at the company is crazy and shows how little you know about business and employment. Even if the new position in Shanghai gives you more responsibility, your boss could easily counter with the decrease in livinig costs.