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gng
Newbie
Joined: Aug 22, 2008
Posts: 5
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 Posted:
Aug 22, 2008 - 12:34 AM |
 
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| Post subject: Expat family: Shanghai vs Taiwan? |
Hi all,
I currently live in US and am considering an expat opportunity in Asia... either Shanghai or Taiwan. Can anyone help me to compare pros and cons of the two places? Comparisons to Honk Kong and Singapore (if you can) will also be helpful. (I lived in Singapore in late 90s).
Also, now we have two kids (3yrs and 6mths), so family living, medical support, education, domestic help etc. are important.
I have seen some old threads comparing the two cities, but those comments are several years old and given the rapid change in Shanghai and evolving political and economic landscape in Asia, I thought it will be helpful to get fresher perspective.
Any insights/perspective will be highly appreciated.
Regards. |
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Mr Totomolo
FooJay
Joined: June 21, 2008
Posts: 1718
Location: Shanghai & Taipei
Status: Offline
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Aug 22, 2008 - 12:51 AM |
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Can anyone help me to compare pros and cons of the two places?
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I definitely can.
But first, you should say where in Taiwan ? Taipei? or Hsinchu?
With your 2 kids, and one in age to go to kindergarten, soon elementary school, you surely would prefer to be in Taipei.
American school in Taipei in in Tienmu, European school is in yangmingshan; both have school bus pick up schedules, but it depends which area you live.
Hsinchu: honestly I dont know bu international school may be more problematic.
Rents: more or less same level as Shanghai, if you want a kind of service apartment, right near taipei 101. Otherwise , can find really nice villas (even with swimming pools) for 3,000 US$/month
It is hard to compare everything, but to make it simple, I should say, that even in downtown Taipei, life is a bit more laid back, less stressed...
For communication, language, street signs, more or less same as Shanghai.
Taiwan economy is a bit slower in recent years, mostly because many taiwan companies have closed their manufacturing facilities t move them to China and also to Vietnam, and keeping mostly management, finance and design/marketing.
But the big companies in Hsinchu like TSMC for example, are still very large, at the edge for manufacturing and sales and still attracting lot of talent.
For the quality of life and with a family and small kids, Taiwan is definitely more attractive than HK for example, with the problems of pollution and cramped space.
In Taiwan, there is a joke with some half truth among expatriates: it says if you survive 3 years, you will never leave afterwards (becoz in 3 years, you will have enjoyed at least one big typhoon, one medium earthquake, some saber-rattling between china and taiwan, enterovirus, foot-and mouth disease...)
I live one month in Taiwan and one in Shanghai; live in Taiwan permanently since 1985. If I can help with more infos, pls dont hesitate |
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Mr Totomolo
FooJay
Joined: June 21, 2008
Posts: 1718
Location: Shanghai & Taipei
Status: Offline
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Aug 22, 2008 - 12:59 AM |
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cleared for double posting |
Last edited by Mr Totomolo on Aug 22, 2008 - 01:02 AM; edited 1 time in total |
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Mr Totomolo
FooJay
Joined: June 21, 2008
Posts: 1718
Location: Shanghai & Taipei
Status: Offline
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Aug 22, 2008 - 01:01 AM |
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[quote="Mr Totomolo"]sorry I did not read all yor post entirely:
domestic helpers: not so easy in Taiwan as China.
To get a foreign domestic helper, as an expat, you will need to be the general manager of a company with at least 100 millions NT$ turnover/year.
Or like the taiwanese people do, you need apply to the Labor Bureau with evidences of a kid with special needs, or a very old ascendant with chronic disease.
Also not too easy to find part-time domestic helpers like we can find ayis so easily in Shanghai (Taiwanese people have long ago refused to do a lot of jobs considered dirty or low in the social scale , that is why we have so many filipinas maids, thai workers in factories, and vietnamese and indonesian caretakers)
Medical support : Taiwan medicine is great. I used to have the social security of expatriates from France abt 2 decades ago..and I gave up for the local tw social security...
Hospitals, doctors, everything is great... I had a very bad motorcycle accident 2 years ago, requiring serious surgery on the leg with screws, re-education.etc..and it was really a great success
Good luck for your future life |
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Mr Totomolo
FooJay
Joined: June 21, 2008
Posts: 1718
Location: Shanghai & Taipei
Status: Offline
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Aug 22, 2008 - 01:36 AM |
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Schools: If I am not wrong, American school in Taipei is around 450,000 NT$/year (about 15,000 us$)
European school (includes british, german and french schools) : between 350 and 400,000 NT$/year depending on the kid's age |
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gng
Newbie
Joined: Aug 22, 2008
Posts: 5
Status: Offline
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Aug 22, 2008 - 02:55 AM |
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[quote="Mr Totomolo]
To get a foreign domestic helper, as an expat, you will need to be the general manager of a company with at least 100 millions NT$ turnover/year.
Or like the taiwanese people do, you need apply to the Labor Bureau with evidences of a kid with special needs, or a very old ascendant with chronic disease. [/quote]
Mr. Totomolo,
Thanks for your insights and the prompt responses. I am considering Taipei vs Shanghai.
Regarding the domestic help issue, I want to confirm that I am understanding you correctly. Are you saying that people in Taiwan (expat or local) are not allowed to hire full-time maids unless they are GM or CEO of a company or have special needs kids/elders? That sounds a bit extreme.
Normally, I would think that qualification to hire a maid should be based on one's financial ability rather than the position. What if I can negotiate a package with my employer to pay for the full-time maid? Having said that I can see that not all policies have to follow logic. So, I just want to confirm.
Your all other points are very helpful.
Thanks. |
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Mr Totomolo
FooJay
Joined: June 21, 2008
Posts: 1718
Location: Shanghai & Taipei
Status: Offline
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Aug 22, 2008 - 03:13 AM |
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Hi gng,
I was almost ready to go to bed, it is 3am here.
I will give you more details tomorrow with some texts or evidences from Labor Bureau.
You just overlooked one word in my post : foreign domestic helper.
I don't know of any "normal" taiwan family with a taiwanese domestic helper.
All our domestic helpers are Filipinas.
To employ a filipina domestic helper, you have to go through an agent (broker) who is licenced to arrange the paperwork, the medical check-up before arrival and upon arrival in taiwan, etc...
In the past, the system was quite loose, and lots of Taiwanese families could get one helper by applying in the name of one old relative , even if in fact, the maid was not living with this elderly and not taking care of (or a disabled child for example).
In the last 3 years, the screws have been tightened up, and lots of doctors are afraid to issue complacent medical certificates necessary for the hire.
Also, in the last 10 years, there was a growing problem of foreign workers runaways, leaving their original employer for multiple reasons (sometimes abuse, but also hope of making much more money, even in legal limbo).
A foreign domestic helper is paid at the minimum legal salary of roughly 18,000 NT$ (i.e. abt US$ 600), with housing and food provided by the employer, and 4 days off a month...
A Taiwanese woman would not work for 26 days a month for less than double that amount, even if you could find one.
And sorry after checking, my limit was low and imcomplete becoz last time I checked it was in 2003 ..(I have a filipina maid becoz of one of kids)
Please have a look at this page on the American chamber of commerce in Taiwan, it is very detailed and well explained
It was not the turnover, but the investment (100 millions NT$ = us$ 3 millions)
http://www.amcham.com.tw/publication_topics_view.php?volume=33&vol_num =6&topics_id=332
"Prior to February of last year, only the CEOs of companies that have invested more than NT$100 million (US$2.9 million) in Taiwan could qualify to apply. Other executives at a slightly less senior level could apply if their companies had invested more than NT$200 million (US$5.7 million).
These qualifying conditions have now been expanded to include CEOs and other senior executives from companies whose annual revenue in Taiwan exceed NT$500 million (US$14.4 million) or NT$1 billion (US$28.7 million) respectively. Alternatively, individual executives may apply as long as their taxable income for the previous year exceeded NT$3 million (US$86,000).
Liao pointed out that locals have to satisfy a 16-point system based on the number of young children and elderly or invalid family members in the household. Different qualifying system, different surcharge." |
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Netswimmer
Talker
Joined: Jan 12, 2006
Posts: 96
Status: Offline
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Aug 22, 2008 - 11:32 AM |
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Mr. Totomolo here is your man and here's a site for more info in Taipei living: www.community.com.tw
Needless to say, I'm recommending Taipei over Shanghai. Worked there over 8 yrs and also have stayed in Singapore a few months 3 yrs back - I think it's almost same as Taipei in terms of convenience, safety, kids education, medical care, medical insurance, social security, and leisure places - Singapore is just a little more expensive. Can't help you out re HK, only goes there for business.
on a personal note, after this year's election Taiwan's people and economy seems to be more upbeat and promising. 
cheers!  |
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Kiwi
Board Lord
Joined: May 07, 2003
Posts: 5258
Status: Offline
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Aug 22, 2008 - 12:44 PM |
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Taipei, obviously. . .
Shanghai is a polluted cesspit in comparison. |
_________________
Rhum and Voodoo |
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emerson
Rocker
Joined: May 11, 2007
Posts: 684
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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Aug 22, 2008 - 01:04 PM |
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Can't comment as an expat with a young family to consider but as one who has lived in both Taipei (5 years) and Shanghai (1 year), I still prefer Taipei.
In terms of amenities--transportation, western sundries, restaurants, quality hospitals, schools, etc.--I think both cities are about the same.
Yes, Shanghai is bigger and more happening, but this, IMO, does not translate into a distinct plus. Bigger means more people, lots of shiny buildings and more sprawl but not necessarily more to see or do.
In terms of weather, summer in Taipei is as hot but a bit more humid than in Shanghai, but winter is milder and damper.
Hygiene much better in Taipei, though still behind Singapore and HK, and the Chinese food in Taipei is superior, both in terms of quality and selection.
In terms of nightlife, Shanghai is more happening--if clubbing is your thing, which I doubt, but Taipei is more eclectic--very good jazz and film scene (sans censors), and better than what I have experienced in HK and Singapore--albeit in the context of business trips and short vacations.
Most importantly, should you want to get for a quick vacation or a weekend family trip, you will find it much easier to leave Taipei--by car, train or plane--and more to see and do within two hours of Taipei than within two hours of Shanghai.
Feel free to PM with any questions. |
_________________
Depth perception: the difference between brown nosing and kissing *ss |
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didarx79
Raver
Joined: Mar 23, 2005
Posts: 436
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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Aug 22, 2008 - 01:19 PM |
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Taiwan pro: people are friendlier and less rude, cleaner air and environment, better food, better nature sights, no work or schools on tyhpoon days (quite a few), media is not censored, night markets(!)
Taiwan con: earthquake, typhoon, floods, crazy and stupid politicians fighting on and that's all that is reported in the tv news, hot wet summers
Shanghai pro: cheaper in most everything, more concentrated in the city, easy to travel to other Chinese cities (so much to explore), delivery/ massage, pirated dvd's
Shanghai con: lacking all those in "Taiwan pro", public transportation is much more crowded, cold wet winters |
_________________
7+ years in Shanghai. |
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860115huang
Barker
Joined: Mar 10, 2008
Posts: 159
Status: Offline
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Aug 22, 2008 - 01:34 PM |
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 Maybe expats who live in Taipei will say Shanghai is better than China Taipei. |
_________________
http://www.800chinabaskets.com Definitely a nice website!! |
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Mr Totomolo
FooJay
Joined: June 21, 2008
Posts: 1718
Location: Shanghai & Taipei
Status: Offline
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Aug 22, 2008 - 03:25 PM |
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In the past, I had one gf in Shanghai (before I get married) from the upper crust of Shanghainese...She used to joke me, every time I had to go back to Taiwan for my business and my house here in Taipei, that I was going back to the countryside...
But I live in the south suburb of Taipei, 10 mn from the entrance of the second north highway to go to Taoyuan airport for example, 15 mn by car to Taipei 101 by a nice brand new speedway...
I own and live in a 4 storeys villa, in a gated community with 24 hours security, with swimming pool, tennis courts...and this is what I see every day when I wake up.
This being said, I enjoy the energy of the city life in Shanghai...and I miss the family life when I have to stay in Taipei...
I use Air Macau, Taipei-Macau-shanghai, like if I was taking a bus to commute....
I get the best of both sides of the Taiwan Straits...
For kids: the OP wont becoz probably he will be here for just 2-3 years, but my kids went to the taiwan school, before moving to the States...
So they mastered the chinese since birth, then went on to have a western education..
Maybe one more plus in their future life
I would not say Taiwan is more expensive than Shanghai...
Even if you eat street food everyday, you can have a decent meal for 2, and not be sick for 120 nt$ on a street stall (abt 30 rmb)...
Transportation like subway is a bit more expensive than Shanghai, but cars are definitely cheaper. 30 K US$ will buy a brand new 3000 cc Ford Escape SUV ...  |
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italian-in-SH
Seeker
Joined: June 28, 2008
Posts: 55
Status: Offline
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Aug 22, 2008 - 04:39 PM |
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WOW, nice view from your villa! It reminds me of my home in Rome. Strikingly similar, the only difference being that I am not surrounded by mountains, but by a beautiful countryside landscape. |
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"A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally" |
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SatelliteTV
SuperStar
Joined: Nov 18, 2006
Posts: 1410
Location: Taiwan & China
Status: Offline
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Aug 22, 2008 - 06:17 PM |
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| 860115huang wrote: |
| Maybe expats who live in Taipei will say Shanghai is better than China Taipei. |
Nope. Clearly wrong. I spend a lot of time in Both but mainly in Taipei. Thats only because my office is in Taipei and sepnd a lot of time there.
Taipei's MRT public transports is very good. Taipie is very safe for young families. There are better places to live than ust Tianmu or Yangminghsan.
But like verywhere the OP will need some help. The OP has been posting the same questions on www.forumosa.com so I guess plenty of info on offer. |
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jim@taiwansatellite.tv skype blackcrusader www.taiwansatellite.tv |
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Netswimmer
Talker
Joined: Jan 12, 2006
Posts: 96
Status: Offline
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Aug 22, 2008 - 09:55 PM |
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| 860115huang wrote: |
| Maybe expats who live in Taipei will say Shanghai is better than China Taipei. |
Sorry but I doubt that. Most, if not all expats I know in the AsPac region have the same sentiments re SH. While we appreciate the cheap massage and DVDs in SH, it doesn't compensate the more relevant aspects of expat living. But don't fret, there's no way for Shanghai but up and towards improvement
and before you or anyone throws the "then go back to wherever shithole you came from" line; like most expats I'm here to make a living and sharing observations (not judgments) is my prerogative. |
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Netswimmer
Talker
Joined: Jan 12, 2006
Posts: 96
Status: Offline
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Aug 22, 2008 - 10:00 PM |
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| Mr Totomolo wrote: |
But I live in the south suburb of Taipei, 10 mn from the entrance of the second north highway to go to Taoyuan airport for example, 15 mn by car to Taipei 101 by a nice brand new speedway...
I own and live in a 4 storeys villa, in a gated community with 24 hours security, with swimming pool, tennis courts...and this is what I see every day when I wake up.
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Hey Mr. Totomolo, that view is familiar to me, we may have been neighbors. |
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Mr Totomolo
FooJay
Joined: June 21, 2008
Posts: 1718
Location: Shanghai & Taipei
Status: Offline
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Aug 23, 2008 - 12:21 AM |
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Hey Mr. Totomolo, that view is familiar to me, we may have been neighbors.
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 really? I live in Hsintien, but beyond the Pitan bridge, in Ankang area...A great place , called Lu yue shan po, very famous with taiwan politicians and movies stars or singers (Yu tien is my neighbour, and the former governor James Soong comes often play mahjong in a lane below), but unknown to most expatriates, as it is at the opposite of Tienmou and Yangmingshan, across Taipei city.
About 10 years ago, the wife of the top general manager of Carrefour Taiwan asked me during the yearly party of the French national day, where I lived..When I tried to explain, she had a surprised and scared face and said:" but..it is full of chinese people there....!!"
When I drive down the mountain, turn left and in 10 mn I am in Taipei, close to Taipei 101.
But turn right and in 10 mn, I am here....in the middle of tea gardens and jungle...
It is the mountain road to go to the famous old town of Sanshia.
For those who dont know: Taiwan really is worth a long visit...Someday, I will post about the east Coast near Hualien and Taroko marble canyons(my ex-wife is from the Ami tribe, in Hualien...)..
Then , even Guilin will seem like a small park to you |
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Kiwi
Board Lord
Joined: May 07, 2003
Posts: 5258
Status: Offline
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Aug 23, 2008 - 12:47 AM |
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Taiwan is so superior to Shanghai in every way. It's just not funny.
I lived about 4 years in each city by the way.
A key difference is people. You just get way more dickheads in Shanghai - and not just the locals. |
_________________
Rhum and Voodoo |
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carolina2aus
Seeker
Joined: Nov 21, 2009
Posts: 40
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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Jan 03, 2010 - 06:32 AM |
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| Kiwi wrote: |
Taiwan is so superior to Shanghai in every way. It's just not funny.
I lived about 4 years in each city by the way.
A key difference is people. You just get way more dickheads in Shanghai - and not just the locals. |
Fully agree. Shanghai is good ONLY for cheap massages and cheap domestic help. Taiwan has been open to US/europe for much longer, and it shows. The people in Taiwan are much more civilised. No comments on internet censorship. If you are looking for a nightlife EACH AND EVERY night, then perhaps you should come to SH. I would rather live in Taiwan and just visit SH every now and then.
If you want to eat western food or thai/indian/mexican food or have a good cup of coffee, this is very very expensive in SH -- heaven knows when these prices will come down in SH. |
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MrPuxi
Rocker
Joined: Jan 30, 2008
Posts: 667
Status: Offline
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Jan 03, 2010 - 08:44 AM |
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freind of mine who moved from taipei 2 years back is DYING to get back. he says compared to taipei, shanghai is essentially one big pool of filth and dirt.
also, you don't relly hear about taiwanese companies spiking their milk with melamine (AGAIN!!) or that sort of china-crap.... after all, taipei is taiwan and not china! |
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lucane01
Seeker
Joined: Sep 27, 2009
Posts: 43
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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Jan 03, 2010 - 09:35 AM |
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You'd be a pretty horrible father to take your young kids from the safety of the US and place them into Shanghai. |
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root
SuperStar
Joined: Oct 06, 2008
Posts: 1300
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Jan 03, 2010 - 09:36 AM |
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If for business, i think what HK is best choice: close mainland suppliers, offshore zone, English speaking pipl. Everything tuned for business. Life is pretty lonely there.
We never considered Shanghai for living, it's seem hmmm.. a little noisy. 
If for living - i may prefer Hawaii. |
_________________
Urban dictionary: Money talks, bullfeces walks, that is how life goes. |
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LadyofLeisure
SuperStar
Joined: Aug 03, 2009
Posts: 1335
Location: at the beach, reading a book :)
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Jan 03, 2010 - 09:56 AM |
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| lucane01 wrote: |
| You'd be a pretty horrible father to take your young kids from the safety of the US and place them into Shanghai. |
Surely you are jesting.... Safety of the US for children - where may I ask is this so called nirvana in America? |
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tassi
Barker
Joined: Nov 24, 2008
Posts: 134
Status: Offline
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Jan 03, 2010 - 10:26 AM |
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Taipei has a much much higher quality of life than Shanghai, yet Shanghai has better business opportunities. |
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