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leidelaohu
Board Lord
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 5751
Status: Offline
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Nov 26, 2008 - 02:18 AM |
 
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| MoonOverMiami wrote: |
| ^And I doubt the Chinese population were saints before the MNC's arrived. |
Hell no, they weren't ! but there's a difference between being cheated by your own friends and neighbors and selliing out to an invader. Ask the French about how they felt towards the Vichy government.
Given that proviso, actually people were better behaved in China ten or fifteen years ago. An egocentric grasping acquisitiveness at all costs has always been a major feature of the chinese culture. But a decade ago it was somewhat held in check. Don't ask me, I'm a grouch. Ask some of the unbiased people who were here then, such as sbergman. Things were quite different before the capitalist-roaders decided to become wealthy at the expense of the future. |
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MoonOverMiami
LoopKicker
Joined: Jan 07, 2008
Posts: 865
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Nov 26, 2008 - 02:49 AM |
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| leidelaohu wrote: |
| Don't ask me, I'm a grouch. |
I've only been here 2 yrs and I'm fast becoming one too, if I haven't turned into a complete grouch yet.  |
_________________
"One who falls asleep with an itchy backside, will wake up with smelly fingers..." |
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underh20
Board Legend
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 12702
Location: Veggie-Free Zone
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Nov 26, 2008 - 08:08 AM |
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| leidelaohu wrote: |
| Given that proviso, actually people were better behaved in China ten or fifteen years ago. |
Want to know why?
Because when you stole a bike the entire village was locked down until you were caught, had your arms and legs broken and then shipped off to a foodless re-education camp for ten years. |
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"If I need to buy a TV, I'll definitely buy a Japanese TV. A Chinese TV might explode." -- Jackie Chan |
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leidelaohu
Board Lord
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 5751
Status: Offline
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Nov 26, 2008 - 09:05 AM |
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^^ The country is full of Adnimistrators now. Anything is okay as long as it's in the cause of making money. Even if people also thought that way before, at least they didn't dare act that way. In the real world that makes a big difference. |
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ziccawei
Post Roaster
Joined: Sep 12, 2008
Posts: 4547
Location: Ziccawei
Status: Offline
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Nov 26, 2008 - 09:18 AM |
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While I can understand your sentiments, leidelaohu, I can also understand the desire for people to turn the money tap on. For the Chinese it was off or non-existent for years and you're asking them to turn it off? Not gonna happen. And for some up-and-coming 30-something guy from outside of China, who finally has the chance to prove himself? Of course he's going to go for it. Socialist ideals are great, but I think they are often conjured up with the heart and not the head. |
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Jackie Onnassis on acid. |
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ziccawei
Post Roaster
Joined: Sep 12, 2008
Posts: 4547
Location: Ziccawei
Status: Offline
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Nov 26, 2008 - 09:23 AM |
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There are some suggestions that China could go back to where it was 20 years ago, although that could be wishful thinking for some people.
Here's a funny one though - Gordon Brown has asked China to contribute to the already depleted funds of the IMF. In return he has told China that Britain has always recognised t¡bet as a part of China. It's like 'Give us some cash and we'll agree that t¡bet is part of China just like we did before the second world war'. |
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Jackie Onnassis on acid. |
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leidelaohu
Board Lord
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 5751
Status: Offline
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Nov 26, 2008 - 10:35 AM |
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| ziccawei wrote: |
| Socialist ideals are great, but I think they are often conjured up with the heart and not the head. |
That's what people always say. Then the Adnimistrators of the world drive it all into the ground and the fuzzy-thinking socialists have to come back out of the woodwork and save the economies.
Ya know, it's not necessary. Let the people be as greedy as they want but the govenments have to be socialist and look out for the good of the whole. I don't mean bleeding-heart socialist, I mean practical common-sense socialist. No socialism = Enron. No socialism = no highways, no access to a responsible press, no clean air or water or safety standards for food. We are already socialist. We have to be. The modern world is too intertwined to let the basic needs of society go unmet - and no, the evidence is that Private Enterprise does not do the job unless it's regulated.
So let's get over the crap about "socialism / communism is a wonderful idea but ..." It's not only a wonderful idea, it's the only thing that actually works. We just need to concentrate on making it functional rather than the bandaid we apply when the law of the jungle brings us to another meltdown.
| ziccawei wrote: |
| Here's a funny one though - Gordon Brown has asked China to contribute to the already depleted funds of the IMF ... |
Hey now ! China is the world's up and coming Superpower ! booming economy ! Growth rates the West can only envy in their dreams ! Land of opportunity, streets paved with gold ! Went into space, won the Olympics, China is our new World Leader !
Time to step up to the plate, Big Boy. |
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ziccawei
Post Roaster
Joined: Sep 12, 2008
Posts: 4547
Location: Ziccawei
Status: Offline
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Nov 26, 2008 - 10:56 AM |
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That's not what I meant, leidelaohu. I think it's kind of ironic that five or six months ago the whole world was up in arms at China's arrogance in assuming that t¡bet is part of China. Now they are holding out begging bowls, acting Uriah Heep, and assuring China that t¡bet is and always will be part of China.
Of course China can afford it - it's pocket change to them.
For the record, I think t¡bet is part of China and history will tell us that has been the case for years and years. It's interesting what a difference a day makes. |
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Jackie Onnassis on acid. |
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Reggin
Veejay
Joined: Nov 07, 2008
Posts: 2197
Status: Offline
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Nov 26, 2008 - 01:28 PM |
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| The country is full of Adnimistrators now. |
I am here 11 years you dumb assclown communist. Always doing business on my own. Only dumb communist like you can claim that 10 or 15 years earlier was better here. The change to the better is so quick that you can even be here present to see the changes, how quick and good they are. |
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livestrong
Reacher
Joined: Sep 25, 2007
Posts: 325
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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Nov 26, 2008 - 02:24 PM |
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| leidelaohu wrote: |
| So let's get over the crap about "socialism / communism is a wonderful idea but ..." It's not only a wonderful idea, it's the only thing that actually works. |
  
Have you actually lived in a country that's been governed by a "so called" socialist government? Perhaps you should have a look at Sweden (where I'm from), and see how things are going. Sure, it's a good country to live in (for most of the time). But you should try to walk the streets and ask people how it feels to pay the highest taxes in the world, but still don't have the best schools, hospitals, police force etc etc etc - in the world. Where does all the money go, one might wonder? Well, how much money do you think it cost to have this enormous government - just to give you one example. And in the end, do you things are fast and efficient when you need to get something done? Well, I don't think one need to be a rocket science to know the answer on that one...
I don't have the time to go in to specifics here. But again, I lived almost my whole life in a country with a socialist government, and I can promise you - thinks are not as great as it seams.
On another note. I'm happy to live here in Shanghai, and I don't have much to complain about. Sure, I live in a so called "bubble" as an expat, but I also let China be China. Personally I think that if you compare the country now with 10-15 years ago, they have come a long long way, and there are for sure a lot more people living a better life now then before.
Cheers |
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seanryan471
Reacher
Joined: Aug 08, 2008
Posts: 307
Status: Offline
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Nov 26, 2008 - 02:55 PM |
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| livestrong wrote: |
Personally I think that if you compare the country now with 10-15 years ago, they have come a long long way, and there are for sure a lot more people living a better life now then before.
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Which is 100% due to capitalism and not 1 bit less. |
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leidelaohu
Board Lord
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 5751
Status: Offline
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Nov 26, 2008 - 04:53 PM |
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| seanryan471 wrote: |
| livestrong wrote: |
Personally I think that if you compare the country now with 10-15 years ago, they have come a long long way, and there are for sure a lot more people living a better life now then before.
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Which is 100% due to capitalism and not 1 bit less. |
You two were here in 1992 ?
I was. Several of my friends were (and still are.) sbergman was.
We don't agree with you. |
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Reggin
Veejay
Joined: Nov 07, 2008
Posts: 2197
Status: Offline
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Nov 26, 2008 - 05:06 PM |
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You two were here in 1992 ?
I was. Several of my friends were (and still are.) sbergman was.
We don't agree with you. |
So basically you and your friends are saying that China would be best off if it would continue in Maocedong's way...does not surprise me little bit with commie fucktard like you... |
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seanryan471
Reacher
Joined: Aug 08, 2008
Posts: 307
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Nov 26, 2008 - 05:45 PM |
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| leidelaohu wrote: |
| seanryan471 wrote: |
| livestrong wrote: |
Personally I think that if you compare the country now with 10-15 years ago, they have come a long long way, and there are for sure a lot more people living a better life now then before.
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Which is 100% due to capitalism and not 1 bit less. |
You two were here in 1992 ?
I was. Several of my friends were (and still are.) sbergman was.
We don't agree with you. |
I was not here in 1992. I'm not sure how that is relevant.
Do you and your friends disagree on the point that people are better off now than they were 15 years ago or the point that capitalism is the reason why?
If it is the former, then you don't have common sense.
If it is the latter, then the burden of proof is on you I believe. Socialism/communism has been in China for the better part of a century. Capitalism has been around.... for about 15 years. Sure it doesn't put the final nail in the coffin, but I think it qualifies as a smoking gun. |
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underh20
Board Legend
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 12702
Location: Veggie-Free Zone
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| Posted:
Nov 26, 2008 - 05:58 PM |
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| leidelaohu wrote: |
| seanryan471 wrote: |
| livestrong wrote: |
Personally I think that if you compare the country now with 10-15 years ago, they have come a long long way, and there are for sure a lot more people living a better life now then before.
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Which is 100% due to capitalism and not 1 bit less. |
You two were here in 1992 ?
I was. Several of my friends were (and still are.) sbergman was.
We don't agree with you. |
Excuse me for being too fucking lazy to read the whole thread, but you are not saying that China has not improved in the last 14 years or so, right? Right?? |
_________________
"If I need to buy a TV, I'll definitely buy a Japanese TV. A Chinese TV might explode." -- Jackie Chan |
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Arby76
Seeker
Joined: Aug 13, 2004
Posts: 51
Status: Offline
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Nov 26, 2008 - 07:35 PM |
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I thought this thread was about Expats leaving Shanghai. They must be, I am seeing apartment rental prices drop in expensive compounds. Another thing I've noticed already is not about expats, ie foreigners that live here, but the number of visiting foreigners has already diminished. Ask someone who works with/in 5star hotels, they'll tell you occupancy is already down and sliding.
I understand what posters above have said about not missing the loser foreigners that aren't doing anything useful here. Though they haven't gotten the memo yet, drop by Lounge 18 on a Fri/Sat night and you'll see what I mean. If you are earning a high salary in China, you'd better be sure you're worth it... |
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TISM
SuperStar
Joined: July 14, 2005
Posts: 1581
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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Nov 26, 2008 - 07:56 PM |
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I don't think its just people leaving its people not coming here
1. Its low season for tourists thus the empty hotels
2. The F-Visa crack down made a lot of people have second thoughts about coming over
3. the crack down on people with less than 2 years experience getting z-visas and teaching english or being financial advisors
There are some who are leaving but that's more to do with having had enough of China after 3-5 years and gone back to the easy life in their home countries.
I think that the financial crisis will have an effect on the number expats, but there are probably some in MNC's who are taking advancage as they think 'right Mr. Jones with his wife and 3 kids with the 2 mil RMB salary and 500K in costs per year - i think he needs to come home so we can hire Mr.Smith who will cost us 1.5mil salary and no extras. Tell Mr. Jones its due to the financial downturn' - Basically I think the days of over paid expats with golden packages is over.
So yes I think there are expats leaving town(or not coming) but not by the plane load.
Mind you some think the opposite will happen and that next spring a flood of expats will come looking for jobs willing to take lesser packages because there is nothing at home for them.
So who knows exodus or stampede I think we will know next spring |
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Everyone will be famous for 15 minutes. |
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underh20
Board Legend
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
Posts: 12702
Location: Veggie-Free Zone
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Nov 26, 2008 - 08:29 PM |
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| TISM wrote: |
| I think that the financial crisis will have an effect on the number expats, but there are probably some in MNC's who are taking advancage as they think 'right Mr. Jones with his wife and 3 kids with the 2 mil RMB salary and 500K in costs per year - i think he needs to come home so we can hire Mr.Smith who will cost us 1.5mil salary and no extras. Tell Mr. Jones its due to the financial downturn' - Basically I think the days of over paid expats with golden packages is over. |
The days of great expat packages are not over for those who bring value to the firm.
Many companies are still attempting to localize, but that is having minimal consequences as it is extremely difficult to find quality local talent.The first step most major multinationals is taking is to replace the less expensive expats such as Taiwanese and Malaysians. Next you'll see the Hong Kongers and Singaporeans go, but there will be no exodus yet as they are more difficult to localize in terms of quality. |
_________________
"If I need to buy a TV, I'll definitely buy a Japanese TV. A Chinese TV might explode." -- Jackie Chan |
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rxg
Raver
Joined: Sep 06, 2005
Posts: 496
Status: Offline
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Nov 26, 2008 - 10:04 PM |
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^ Completely agreed with TISM! And Under 20
Many MNCs send the Mr. Jones home because he costs 2.5 Millions RBM per year. On top of that his wife is a bitch to the company driver.
MNS will send over Mr. Smith because he is single so his total package is much less than Mr. Jones but his salary is equal to Mr. Jones. Mr. Smith is happy because he gets paid a lot.
Having said that I agreed with Under 20. My company tried to localize some key positions, thinking that being local, they can manage the local market , and local people better and that they are less expensive. Bad move, these local hires are not the same caliber. This year and next year, the company plans to bring back a few more expats, more than the amount they sent home.
Some of us are wondering when they will fire these locals.
One cannot buy ethical education, class and environmental experiences with an MBA as someone mentioned earlier.
My impression of China is:
10-15 years ago, many Chinese were riding their water buffalos, but today they are riding in their Mercedez and thinking that it is OK if they run people over because they have car. And if they kill some poor guys on the street, it is OK b/c these people are poor and that they could pay a fee to stay out of jail.
This is what I think of China. |
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Juan_Tamad
Board Royalty
Joined: Jan 29, 2007
Posts: 7094
Location: Smoky Mountain
Status: Offline
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Nov 27, 2008 - 08:41 AM |
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Yup a quick look at expensive bars and western restaurants will show that business has slowed down. If this is the gauge then, its true that expats who are paid big bucks are getting less and less in shanghai.., or avoiding expensive places too.
BUT, cheap places that offer cheap or free drinks are full of young expats (wondering what they do in shanghai though) Go to Zapatas on monday and the bulldog bar on wednesday night....its a zoo
Local Good restaurants are still packed. Go to Yuxin, Di shui dong, etc. You still need 15-30 minutes to wait during peak hours. The local economy is now working. |
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BAD LUCK has always been the excuse of LOSERS!!! |
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Shangstar
Fire-eater
Joined: Feb 07, 2008
Posts: 2786
Location: Spitland
Status: Offline
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Nov 27, 2008 - 10:12 AM |
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yep, and people will no longer pay 35-60 RMB for a simple Chinese dish to be delivered by Sherpas or Mealbay. The stuff on the street corners is much better, cooked in front of you and a 10th of the price. I think all over the world today, those pretentious restaurants that served "ooooh, food to die for" with their pumpkin ravioli (disgusting pasta), sandwich à boeuf (burger), pomme de frites (fries) and jus de tomate (kethcup), not to mention their specially selected wines (Jacobs Creek), will finally disappear together with their pretentious clientele who's property values are coming down like a lead balloon. Finally! |
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Iamunique
Lurker
Joined: Apr 19, 2008
Posts: 35
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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Nov 27, 2008 - 02:32 PM |
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Yes, my company has put a freeze on all employment, Expats are being sent home and its, generally, a very unstable time. 2009 will be a year of changing and re-submitting FTE Budgets, T&E and focussing on core products rather then creating new ones... yippee. |
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Juan_Tamad
Board Royalty
Joined: Jan 29, 2007
Posts: 7094
Location: Smoky Mountain
Status: Offline
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Nov 27, 2008 - 04:28 PM |
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how about expats leaving bangkok and mumbai?
ahhh...enjoy the safety of shanghai |
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BAD LUCK has always been the excuse of LOSERS!!! |
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Shanghai7136
Reacher
Joined: Nov 26, 2003
Posts: 318
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Jan 29, 2009 - 01:36 AM |
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| rxg wrote: |
^ Completely agreed with TISM! And Under 20
Many MNCs send the Mr. Jones home because he costs 2.5 Millions RBM per year. On top of that his wife is a bitch to the company driver.
MNS will send over Mr. Smith because he is single so his total package is much less than Mr. Jones but his salary is equal to Mr. Jones. Mr. Smith is happy because he gets paid a lot.
Having said that I agreed with Under 20. My company tried to localize some key positions, thinking that being local, they can manage the local market , and local people better and that they are less expensive. Bad move, these local hires are not the same caliber. This year and next year, the company plans to bring back a few more expats, more than the amount they sent home.
Some of us are wondering when they will fire these locals.
One cannot buy ethical education, class and environmental experiences with an MBA as someone mentioned earlier.
My impression of China is:
10-15 years ago, many Chinese were riding their water buffalos, but today they are riding in their Mercedez and thinking that it is OK if they run people over because they have car. And if they kill some poor guys on the street, it is OK b/c these people are poor and that they could pay a fee to stay out of jail.
This is what I think of China. |
And I completely agree with you. I've been here many years -- local talent really is just not impressive at all. Sometimes, they've got the skills but their mentality is horrible. Usually I find it's the mentality that I can't work with, or their mentality that is blocking their potential.
This also leads in with your next comment of how they'll run people over just because they've finally got a Benz. Again, it's the mentality. As long as they think that way I feel its hindering them. |
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Snippets
SuperStar
Joined: Apr 09, 2005
Posts: 1415
Status: Offline
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Jan 29, 2009 - 01:54 AM |
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| Sometimes, they've got the skills but their mentality is horrible. Usually I find it's the mentality that I can't work with, or their mentality that is blocking their potential. |
^Well said. In just 2 sentences, you have summed it up so well - better and more important than all of the mindless business books written about doing business in China. I'll vomit if I ever read 1 more piece of crap talking about the importance of guanxi... You are so right - it's the mentality, the utterly shocking thought process or lack of, I am not sure which.. mind boggling.
I've been here since 2001 and nothing has changed, just the government has put some lipstick on this pig so to speak. |
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