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victorinchina
Board Royalty
Joined: Jan 17, 2009
Posts: 7075
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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July 03, 2009 - 12:48 PM |
 
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^ Yes, fully agree.
My point wasn't that it was a great achievement of China to have "unlimited" human resources... |
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tomnoddy_uk
Wonder Wit
Joined: Mar 14, 2006
Posts: 3509
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July 03, 2009 - 12:59 PM |
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| Andreas wrote: |
| with total disregard of environment or working conditions, only because there's an abundance of cheap labour, can hardly be seen as an achievement in the long run. |
China and its government is and has been doing more for the environment than a heap of other countrys (who got us where we are today).
Working conditions are impoving - labour law indicating the goal - think of the western countries when they were developing. Much better? No.
How much of the poor conditions is used for export? Same for the pollution and cheap labour? |
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Not everyone who chased the zebra caught it, but he who caught it, chased it. |
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ziccawei
Post Roaster
Joined: Sep 12, 2008
Posts: 4547
Location: Ziccawei
Status: Offline
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July 03, 2009 - 01:06 PM |
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^ Exactly.
China is a member of the Kyoto Agreement. There are western countries that are not.
Also, citing Japan and Korea and expecting China to be up to speed with these countries is ridiculous. Japan started mass-production in the 70's or before - environmental issues were probably neglected. At the same time China was struggling through the CR. |
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Jackie Onnassis on acid. |
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Andreas
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Feb 27, 2004
Posts: 9140
Location: s/v Waratah
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July 03, 2009 - 01:08 PM |
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China is a member of a few handfuls of other agreements too, and we know how well they stick to those LOL. |
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How do you make a small fortune? Start with a big fortune, and buy a boat. |
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tomnoddy_uk
Wonder Wit
Joined: Mar 14, 2006
Posts: 3509
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July 03, 2009 - 01:18 PM |
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China's auto engine standards exceed US standards. They will lead the world for battery cars within a few years. Much of the stimulus package has been directed towards improving environental standards (on top of what was already going on). They have more going on in wind, solar, hydro, nuclear than any other country by quite some way. Green targets have been raised beyond what they were since last year. Will they continue to use coal? Of course. It is cheap and plentiful, but I bet they will be ahead of the curve on carbon capture and so forth. Why does Beijing care so much? Because households are affected by environmental damage and they ultimately decide who is in charge. See how they have made local officials accountable for their environmental record, not just economic performance. I don't know why but you have quite a dated view on China. Things are happening here, open your eyes. |
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Not everyone who chased the zebra caught it, but he who caught it, chased it. |
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ziccawei
Post Roaster
Joined: Sep 12, 2008
Posts: 4547
Location: Ziccawei
Status: Offline
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July 03, 2009 - 01:23 PM |
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It's late for Andreas, Tommy.
He's a sinosaur.
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Jackie Onnassis on acid. |
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Andreas
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Feb 27, 2004
Posts: 9140
Location: s/v Waratah
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July 03, 2009 - 01:32 PM |
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| ziccawei wrote: |
It's late for Andreas, Tommy.
He's a sinosaur.
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I was just lucky I damaged my rose coloured glasses beyond repair when I was in my early twenties. 
Some people had them glued on I reckon. |
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How do you make a small fortune? Start with a big fortune, and buy a boat. |
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ziccawei
Post Roaster
Joined: Sep 12, 2008
Posts: 4547
Location: Ziccawei
Status: Offline
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July 03, 2009 - 01:35 PM |
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| Andreas wrote: |
Some people had them glued on I reckon. |
Like Edgewood, you mean?
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Jackie Onnassis on acid. |
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Andreas
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Feb 27, 2004
Posts: 9140
Location: s/v Waratah
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July 03, 2009 - 01:35 PM |
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| tomnoddy_uk wrote: |
| China's auto engine standards exceed US standards. They will lead the world for battery cars within a few years. Much of the stimulus package has been directed towards improving environental standards (on top of what was already going on). They have more going on in wind, solar, hydro, nuclear than any other country by quite some way. Green targets have been raised beyond what they were since last year. Will they continue to use coal? Of course. It is cheap and plentiful, but I bet they will be ahead of the curve on carbon capture and so forth. Why does Beijing care so much? Because households are affected by environmental damage and they ultimately decide who is in charge. See how they have made local officials accountable for their environmental record, not just economic performance. I don't know why but you have quite a dated view on China. Things are happening here, open your eyes. |
Standards without enforcement are useless.
A lot seems to happen here, and from the outside it looks good. Which is exactly the purpose.
The reality is that the more it seems to change, the more it stays the same. The best hardware does not work without the right software. That, and nothing else is the problem here. |
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How do you make a small fortune? Start with a big fortune, and buy a boat. |
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Andreas
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Feb 27, 2004
Posts: 9140
Location: s/v Waratah
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July 03, 2009 - 01:36 PM |
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| ziccawei wrote: |
| Andreas wrote: |
Some people had them glued on I reckon. |
Like Edgewood, you mean?
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Mate, you and I know that he is not a good example |
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How do you make a small fortune? Start with a big fortune, and buy a boat. |
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victorinchina
Board Royalty
Joined: Jan 17, 2009
Posts: 7075
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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July 03, 2009 - 01:37 PM |
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| Andreas wrote: |
| ziccawei wrote: |
It's late for Andreas, Tommy.
He's a sinosaur.
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I was just lucky I damaged my rose coloured glasses beyond repair when I was in my early twenties.
Some people had them glued on I reckon. |
Most of the time it's the same people who have only been staying in Beijing or Shanghai...
Go to Guangdong, and tell me they are concerned about the environment for 1 second there... Bollocks |
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tomnoddy_uk
Wonder Wit
Joined: Mar 14, 2006
Posts: 3509
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July 03, 2009 - 01:39 PM |
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Andreas, I am more cynical than most - I'm from the UK after all. However, I have seen what China is doing and is planning on doing - a shed load, whether you care to admit it or not. If you are to criticise Beijing then at least do it on one of the many things it mucks up on. The environment, however, is not one of them. |
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Not everyone who chased the zebra caught it, but he who caught it, chased it. |
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tomnoddy_uk
Wonder Wit
Joined: Mar 14, 2006
Posts: 3509
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July 03, 2009 - 01:41 PM |
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Just saw you're reply. I guess we must be visiting different places. |
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Not everyone who chased the zebra caught it, but he who caught it, chased it. |
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Andreas
Shanghai Royalty
Joined: Feb 27, 2004
Posts: 9140
Location: s/v Waratah
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July 03, 2009 - 01:50 PM |
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Well, we don't have to agree on everything. It's just that I have seen a lot of the China outside of the big 3 or 5 cities they make look nice for the tourists. If you go to my wife's hometown where the lakes don't even freeze at -10 C anymore, because they are totally polluted, where you get skin rash when you touch a freshwater fish, where 20% of the kids have leukemia or nervous disorders caused by pesticides, then I know that these people have not seen much of Beijings environmental involvement. And given their totally corrupt local governments, they probably never will.
And I am not being cynical now. I have seen it with my own eyes. |
_________________
How do you make a small fortune? Start with a big fortune, and buy a boat. |
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Marakanis
Fire-eater
Joined: Jan 11, 2009
Posts: 2948
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July 03, 2009 - 01:51 PM |
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| Andreas wrote: |
| ziccawei wrote: |
It's late for Andreas, Tommy.
He's a sinosaur.
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I was just lucky I damaged my rose coloured glasses beyond repair when I was in my early twenties.
Some people had them glued on I reckon. |
Contacts... |
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officeguy
Seeker
Joined: Oct 22, 2008
Posts: 53
Status: Offline
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July 03, 2009 - 01:54 PM |
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(Just a reminder, almost half a million Chinese die on the road every year in China, as a direct result of the locals selfish behavior and their utter direspect for others, in spite of everything they learn in school. 500,000 innocent victims. This I can never accept.[/quote])
Where did you get that statistic from? I have seen a number of references to 200 road traffic accident fatalities per day in China, 73,500 in 2008. Of course, its still too much but its one seventh of what you say.
Dispect for others is part of it but the 'it will never happen to me and carry on regardless' approach is responsible for a lot of the deaths as many who die were not wearing a seatbelt. |
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tomnoddy_uk
Wonder Wit
Joined: Mar 14, 2006
Posts: 3509
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July 03, 2009 - 02:12 PM |
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| Andreas wrote: |
Well, we don't have to agree on everything. It's just that I have seen a lot of the China outside of the big 3 or 5 cities they make look nice for the tourists. If you go to my wife's hometown where the lakes don't even freeze at -10 C anymore, because they are totally polluted, where you get skin rash when you touch a freshwater fish, where 20% of the kids have leukemia or nervous disorders caused by pesticides, then I know that these people have not seen much of Beijings environmental involvement. And given their totally corrupt local governments, they probably never will.
And I am not being cynical now. I have seen it with my own eyes. |
I am by no means trying to say China's environment is good at the moment. Economic development has been the be all and end all for China since 1970 up to maybe 3-5 years ago. I really think, hear and see this now changing. Its all relative.
China has highly ambitious plans in this sector, maybe this will not all be met, but in opening up the private industry to achieiving them, Beijing is making every chance that they will be. Things really are happening now and things are improving quickly. Take power stations as an example, not only are scrubbers now mandatory at power stations, but they are now switched on all of the time, not just when foreign inspectors/gov officials visit the plants.
Further, Beijing really does get climate change and accepts it is happening. This in itself is a step ahead of many other countries' governments where there is still wide spread debate as to whether or not it is happening.
Big coal is a good read, even if a little journalistic. Some nice insights into what coal is doing to people's health mainly in the US, but also China. |
_________________
Not everyone who chased the zebra caught it, but he who caught it, chased it. |
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Chrisse
PopStar
Joined: Feb 25, 2009
Posts: 1143
Status: Offline
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July 03, 2009 - 02:15 PM |
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| officeguy wrote: |
(Just a reminder, almost half a million Chinese die on the road every year in China, as a direct result of the locals selfish behavior and their utter direspect for others, in spite of everything they learn in school. 500,000 innocent victims. This I can never accept.)
Where did you get that statistic from? I have seen a number of references to 200 road traffic accident fatalities per day in China, 73,500 in 2008. Of course, its still too much but its one seventh of what you say.
Dispect for others is part of it but the 'it will never happen to me and carry on regardless' approach is responsible for a lot of the deaths as many who die were not wearing a seatbelt. |
This was 5 years ago
If the increase per year is correct it should be almost 180k per year. Not really half a million but still a scary number. |
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victorinchina
Board Royalty
Joined: Jan 17, 2009
Posts: 7075
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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July 03, 2009 - 02:19 PM |
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Just remembered an article I read in a local DK newspaper last year around Christmas.
(I mentioned it a long time ago in another thread about something like this)
A Chinese woman from Beijing, now living in Denmark with a Danish government guy, says that Denmark are way way behind in environmental thinking. She punked us for still using plastic bags at supermarkets etc.*
She said: In China we stopped that a long time ago. Now we only use cloth bags. (Which by the way, conveniently enough, she had a company producing and selling )
See now... I haven't been to Beijing (Other than the airport) so I don't know if they in fact stopped using plastic bags there. But I do know, that they certainly did not stop using those in Shenzhen or in Shanghai. Back in Shenzhen you'd get them thrown after you even if you just bought a pack of smokes...
But maybe the Chinese lady weren't talking about this China... Maybe she was talking about that other China... Where everything is all tip top...
I could find the article, but it's in Danish, so hardly any of you would be able to read it anyways...
* We haven’t gotten totally rid of plastic bags, but cloth bags have also been used in Denmark for as long as I can remember. |
Last edited by victorinchina on July 03, 2009 - 03:58 PM; edited 1 time in total |
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dfoo
Post Roaster
Joined: Jan 19, 2005
Posts: 4693
Status: Offline
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July 03, 2009 - 02:41 PM |
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You get plastic bags here in Shanghai when you buy fruit and vegetables but not when you buy stuff in the super markets, unless you pay for the bag of course. |
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hammerforlife
Low Seater
Joined: May 24, 2004
Posts: 3087
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July 03, 2009 - 02:43 PM |
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| tomnoddy_uk wrote: |
| Take power stations as an example, not only are scrubbers now mandatory at power stations, but they are now switched on all of the time, not just when foreign inspectors/gov officials visit the plants. |
Still some way to go though. I paid a trip to Bailonggang Wastewater Treatment Plant (yes I have a very glamorous job) which treats over a million tonnes of sewage from Shanghai each day. The visit was a suprise to the works manager though as she was very embarrased when I noticed that all the flow was bypassing the treatment plant and flowing directly into the sea, probably to save money. The plant was not being used at all at that time. |
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victorinchina
Board Royalty
Joined: Jan 17, 2009
Posts: 7075
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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July 03, 2009 - 02:44 PM |
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| dfoo wrote: |
| You get plastic bags here in Shanghai when you buy fruit and vegetables but not when you buy stuff in the super markets, unless you pay for the bag of course. |
You don't get any plastic bags in your local supermarket?
So if you pay for the bag then it's ok? It's only the free bags that are environmental incorrect?
I have yet to see a Chinese person with a cloth bag coming out of the Supermarket in New Briliance Shopping Mall where I do our shopping... |
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leidelaohu
Board Lord
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 5751
Status: Offline
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July 03, 2009 - 04:35 PM |
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| hammerforlife wrote: |
| Still some way to go though. I paid a trip to Bailonggang Wastewater Treatment Plant (yes I have a very glamorous job) which treats over a million tonnes of sewage from Shanghai each day. The visit was a suprise to the works manager though as she was very embarrased when I noticed that all the flow was bypassing the treatment plant and flowing directly into the sea, probably to save money. The plant was not being used at all at that time. |
I happen to know for a fact that over a third of their much-vaunted windmills do not work at all for the first year or year and a half. By which time another third are broken so at any one time perhaps half or less of the published capacity is in fact functional.
I also worked in two plating plants for a while. Hammer knows the story there. The rest of you don't want to know.
If there are two solutions, one which works and works well but has a higher upfront cost and is imported while the other doesn't work at all but is cheap to install, guess which one a chinese company will choose every time ? This satisfies all the goals which Beijing sets without actually accomplishing anything ... "I will do my best" pfaugh.
| Andreas wrote: |
| Other countries, like Japan and Korea ... |
People like to make that comparison but in the case of Japan, doesn't apply. Japan had it together a century ago. They ran thru China like shit thru a tin horn. They built quality products and had an effective organization. The crap they built in the fifties and maybe sixties was because they had just lost a major war and had two atomic bombs dropped on them. It's hard to do good work when your place looks like Nagasaki, September 1945.
Different situation, I think. |
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Kiwi
Post Boaster
Joined: May 07, 2003
Posts: 4972
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
July 03, 2009 - 05:23 PM |
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| Chrisse wrote: |
| officeguy wrote: |
(Just a reminder, almost half a million Chinese die on the road every year in China, as a direct result of the locals selfish behavior and their utter direspect for others, in spite of everything they learn in school. 500,000 innocent victims. This I can never accept.)
Where did you get that statistic from? I have seen a number of references to 200 road traffic accident fatalities per day in China, 73,500 in 2008. Of course, its still too much but its one seventh of what you say.
Dispect for others is part of it but the 'it will never happen to me and carry on regardless' approach is responsible for a lot of the deaths as many who die were not wearing a seatbelt. |
This was 5 years ago
If the increase per year is correct it should be almost 180k per year. Not really half a million but still a scary number. |
Statistics can be influenced by how they count a 'road traffic accident fatality'. I believe that Taiwan used to only count deaths at the scene of the accident. If you died in hospital you didn't get recorded in the statistics. Something similar could be going on in the PRC. |
_________________
Always blow on the pie |
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Marakanis
Fire-eater
Joined: Jan 11, 2009
Posts: 2948
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July 03, 2009 - 05:29 PM |
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Kinda like how Disneyland won't let them declare someone dead until they've left the magic kingdom. No deaths at Disneyland, no sir... |
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