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Chrisse

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Joined: Feb 25, 2009
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Posted: Nov 04, 2009 - 06:38 AM

fWerrF wrote:

foreign investment has been going to india as long as it has been going to china.

Yes, but you need to look up the difference in amounts sonny boy...

Quote:

urbanization is when rural communities migrating from rural areas to urban cities. those ppl are not capable of working at ibm or gm factories.
the government urbanizing its cities, which create jobs for those rural area migrates, which demand materials/products that drive other industries.

There are other big foreign companies that make other things that practically anyone can learn to do (all clothing companies for example). It is not only the high tech companies that take advantage of cheap labor and decent infrastructure. Matter of fact is that foreign investment has led to many new jobs in urban areas and more jobs of course lead to higher rate of urbanization. Dude, what you don't seem to get is that no matter how much the government builds in a city (apartments, infrastructure) people won't just magically move in without a reason...

Quote:

matter of fact a big part of china's GDP is due to urbanization. when government pours in trillions, into development of infrastructures and etc. that will happen regardless if foreign investment existed or not.

And a very big part of their GDP is as a indirect/direct result of foreign direct investment. I am not saying that the Chinese themselves had nothing to do with it but you have to understand that no economy can develop this fast without a big foreign influence.

Chrisse

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Posted: Nov 04, 2009 - 07:06 AM

fWerrF wrote:

...the foreigners knocked on their doors with canons guns ships and forced their way in. 1/2 of the so called traders sold opium to poison the chinese...

Wrong, maybe a little review of the history lessons are in order? (gun boat thing was with Japan btw) It was of course the opium war that opened up China. And after 1880's the amount of cotton sold was more than the opium.

Quote:

thus whatever contribution from foreigners in 19 centuries, had virtually no impact on the last 30 years of china development.

You know that there was quite a substantial amount of foreign investment during the time of RoC? Of course this has had an impact, and especially all the FDI during the last 20 years.

Quote:

4) Jews who fled to Shanghai during WW2? they were refugees. Laughing

u can not possibly define someone expat just cuz its a foreigner going to another country to work/live.

Actually the definition is "a person living in a country that is not their own" sometimes people use a stricter definition in that it has to be voluntarily. So you could potentially call the Jews expats, but they were definitely refugees, not that it matters.

Chrisse

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Posted: Nov 04, 2009 - 07:09 AM

fWerrF wrote:

your statement would be correct, IF you walk into a fancy mall, restaurant, bars, buildings, hotel ... etc ... everyone you see is foreigner.

You totally missed his point... Go back and read it again, then please comment on what he really wrote.

Chrisse

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Posted: Nov 04, 2009 - 07:22 AM

fWerrF wrote:

u did not dare to answer my question.
were the chinese labors built railroad in usa in late 19 centuries expats?
are all the mexicans washing dishs in a new york restaurant expats??
you are a focking idiot.

Chinese labors where not really expats in my mind, most of them where kidnapped and brought over to the US.

Mexicans that have gone to the US to look for work could be correctly labeled expats though. You seem to have a very wrong perception on the definition of the term expat. Look it up in a dictionary or see what I wrote in one of my previous posts.

fWerrF

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Posted: Nov 04, 2009 - 07:34 AM

Chrisse wrote:

... I am not saying that the Chinese themselves had nothing to do with it but you have to understand that no economy can develop this fast without a big foreign influence.

Look, I have never denied that, did I?

Since its so confusing for you, let me say this again:

I agree that foreigner investment had influence on china's economic growth.
I disagree with Marakanis's claim that without *expats* chinese ppl would be on the street slitting eachother's throat for 5 rmb. (which is an offensive thing to say, let alone being false).

now read the above 3 times, then tell me again what YOU and i are arguing about??

fWerrF

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Posted: Nov 04, 2009 - 07:48 AM

Chrisse wrote:

... Wrong, maybe a little review of the history lessons are in order? (gun boat thing was with Japan btw) It was of course the opium war that opened up China. And after 1880's the amount of cotton sold was more than the opium.

Opium war was what i said.
i did not say anything about japanese and gun boats. i said "canons, guns, ships.." not "gun-ships".

Chrisse wrote:

You know that there was quite a substantial amount of foreign investment during the time of RoC? Of course this has had an impact ...

yes i am absolutely aware of the foreign investment in 1st half of 20th century.
but can you enlighten me with what *impact* it had on the modern china??

the way i see it:
when china founded in 1949, the only thing left, was hardware, the infrastructures. everything else was wiped out.
it had no money, chiang took everything to taiwan.
all the rich ppl fled to hong kong or taiwan or oversea.
china has no credit intentionally, and no diplomatic relationship with most of countries.
it started from scratch with 1/2 billion ppl to feed.

if you really know something i don't, please go into details instead of a blank statement.

Chrisse

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Posted: Nov 04, 2009 - 07:50 AM

Quote:

remember, merely 30 yrs ago, private biz did not exist, and look at where it is at today. u expats had no hand in that.

Quote:

china will still b where its at, without the so called foreign management ppl like you.

Quote:

how about u tell me what exactly you do, and also anyone on this site that you know, give me the detail rundown of your/their contribution to china economy???

i would love to hear how you ppl made china where it is at today.

These are some of the statements made by you that I was disputing. So if you also agree that China could not have become the world's second largest economy by today without the massive foreign influence and investment then we are all good. (for now)

fWerrF

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Posted: Nov 04, 2009 - 07:52 AM

Chrisse wrote:

... You totally missed his point... Go back and read it again, then please comment on what he really wrote.

i did not.
his point is: without expats, high rise buildings, foreign cuisines, cafes, bakeries, the internet, computers, beer and cars will have a very slim change of existence in china.

which i wholeheartedly disagree.

if you don't think that his point, please clearly state in your opinion what his point is. i am waiting. Rolling Eyes

ziccawei

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Posted: Nov 04, 2009 - 08:00 AM

fWerrF wrote:

Chrisse wrote:

... You totally missed his point... Go back and read it again, then please comment on what he really wrote.

Life during the 60's/70's in China (with no outsiders) was pretty grim, wasn't it?

Having said that, the British did some disgusting things in Asia, both to the Chinese and the Indians. I love the way they teach the history of The British Empire in British schools like it's all Queenbury rules and cricket - more like the biggest bunch of thugs ever.

_________________
Jackie Onnassis on acid.

fWerrF

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Posted: Nov 04, 2009 - 08:01 AM

Chrisse wrote:

Mexicans that have gone to the US to look for work could be correctly labeled expats though. You seem to have a very wrong perception on the definition of the term expat. Look it up in a dictionary or see what I wrote in one of my previous posts.

look, i think you are a nice person, cuz no matter how much we might disagree, you have never resorted to personal attacks and name callings, like some ppl.

so i will say this to you gently:
mexicans that are washing dishes in restaurants in usa, are NOT expats.
you will get laughed at out there if u keep say they are.

mexicans in usa that wash dishes and mow lawns, are immigrates(mostly illegal). not expats. there is a difference between those 2.

Chrisse

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Posted: Nov 04, 2009 - 08:02 AM

fWerrF wrote:

if you don't think that his point, please clearly state in your opinion what his point is. i am waiting. Rolling Eyes

His point was: (in my opinion)

Take away all the foreign influence (restaurants, bars, factories, offices, houses/real estate built/funded by foreigners, contracts for supplying goods for export and so on) that has ever existed in China. I.e. everything that comes with the foreign influence, all the jobs and every single damn thing. Let all the foreigners go back to their separate countries and then see what you end up with.

I think you misunderstood his point as just take away all the foreign people living in China right now.

ziccawei

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Posted: Nov 04, 2009 - 08:03 AM

Mexicans in LA are abused in terms of employment.

It's ridiculous to consider an average Mexican guy in LA being an expat even if he is legal.

_________________
Jackie Onnassis on acid.

Chrisse

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Posted: Nov 04, 2009 - 08:09 AM

fWerrF wrote:

so i will say this to you gently:
mexicans that are washing dishes in restaurants in usa, are NOT expats.
you will get laughed at out there if u keep say they are.

mexicans in usa that wash dishes and mow lawns, are immigrates(mostly illegal). not expats. there is a difference between those 2.

I've never said I would label them expats. What I meant is that it is possible to consider Mexicans working in the US for more money expats, it all depends on how loosely you consider the term and definition (look it up in a dictionary or read a little here). I personally would be more inclined to use the word immigrants.

fWerrF

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Posted: Nov 04, 2009 - 08:18 AM

ziccawei wrote:

... Life during the 60's/70's in China (with no outsiders) was pretty grim, wasn't it?

it was.
ppl were starving, they wear clothes in 2 colors. no any sort of entertainment, list goes on...

BUT.
there were still cars, computers, and beer in china then.
that alone, makes Marakanis's claim false.

further more, when deng xiaoping announced to allow private business ~30 yrs ago, thats when things started to change. some ppl got little richer, the country opened its doors, there was trades/business foreign related, and there were tourists.
just for tourists ALONE, china would have foreign cuisine restaurants and cafes. and lets not forget when locals had money they need to spend it somewhere, thats why leisure establishments like cafes, bars, shopping malls, clubs and everything else would be built and in existence.

is expats' existence and spending a plus to the local economy? of course!
but without expats is china still looking like the grim 60's/70's? no way in hell.

fWerrF

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Posted: Nov 04, 2009 - 08:35 AM

Chrisse wrote:

Take away all the foreign influence (restaurants, bars, factories, offices, houses/real estate built/funded by foreigners, contracts for supplying goods for export and so on) that has ever existed in China. I.e. everything that comes with the foreign influence, all the jobs and every single damn thing. Let all the foreigners go back to their separate countries and then see what you end up with.

I think you misunderstood his point as just take away all the foreign people living in China right now.

even if u take away all the foreign influence in china, there will still be demands for louis vuitton, for fine foreign cuisine, for health clubs, for beauty salon and spas, for clubs and lounges, those demands are bounded to happen when locals have money, so those establishments are bounded to exist, with or without expats.

Chrisse

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Posted: Nov 04, 2009 - 08:42 AM

This was his original words that you quoted when I said you misunderstood:

Quote:

REALLY? Just think about Shanghai and all the nice restaurants here, buildings, hotels, malls, foreign companies and other things that come from foreign influence, money or companies. Now remove all the expat influence, all those restaurants and buildings, hotels, malls, jobs from foreign companies and jobs based on the foreign community. What's left?
Maybe you don't see it, but just walk around. Remove anything with foreign influence and see if that paints a pretty picture of Shanghai.

Tell me how you can warp that in to something else than my understanding of it?

Ah, whatever, it is like talking to a wall.

Chrisse

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Posted: Nov 04, 2009 - 08:42 AM

Whoops... someone deleted his own words Razz

fwerrf wrote:

this was his original words:

Marakanis wrote:

Really? You think there'd be high rise buildings, mexican, italian, french cuisine, cafes, bakeries, the internet, computers, beer and cars here if it weren't for expats? Chances are pretty slim that if China had closed its borders and said "NO EXPATS" that any of those things would have made its way into Chinese culture or ever been made.

i think my understanding was correct.

fWerrF

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Posted: Nov 04, 2009 - 08:47 AM

look we are beating a dead horse here.

just give me a straight answer.
are you saying, if no expats ever came to china. there is never gonna be highrise buildings, foreign cuisine restaurants, cafe, bakery, internet and computer in china????

leidelaohu

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Posted: Nov 04, 2009 - 09:16 AM

fWerrF wrote:

are you saying, if no expats ever came to china. there is never gonna be highrise buildings, foreign cuisine restaurants, cafe, bakery, internet and computer in china????

There might have been but we will never know. Or there might have been something completely different.

But the way things are today is because Deng xiaoping sold out the people of China for foreign money. Over 40% of China's economy is based on foreign money. Without that it would definitely not be the way it is today.

Marakanis
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Joined: Jan 11, 2009
Posts: 2944

Posted: Nov 04, 2009 - 09:19 AM

fWerrF wrote:

Marakanis wrote:

Oh no, you're on ignore. But ...

yawn ... like i thought. its all talk. Laughing

All you can do is talk, but you haven't the intelligence to back up anything you say.

fWerrF wrote:

oh really. so hypothetically, if china exported cocaine into britain by force, brits do drugs and government is too weak to fight china to stop it. are you telling me its british ppl's own fault to do drugs?

Yes.

fWerrF wrote:

Marakanis wrote:

of course all of those things would still exist. are you really that stupid to think otherwise??

It's not stupid to think otherwise. You prove me right in your next couple sentences.

fWerrF wrote:

lets use north korea as an example, you would agree there aren't really any expats there, since its a self-enclosed nation.
are you really telling me there is no beer, no internet, no computer, no cars, no foreign cuisine no cafe and bakery shops there??? Rolling Eyes

they have all of those. whether their ppl can afford or have access to it, its another question. but they have all those things.

No, access to those things is the ONLY QUESTION! The only thing that matters is whether the lives of individual citizens are better. If a country "has" something but NO ONE CAN USE IT, then it is USELESS! Thanks to the expat community here, everyone in China has access to all those things. Not everyone can afford it, but thanks to foreign company jobs, the Chinese are no longer used as slave labor and many people have money and can go use those things and improve themselves. Thanks for proving me right with your amazing stupidity once again.

fWerrF wrote:

with the developing and modernization of china, all those things are bounded to appear and stay for good. its mind boggling to me that you think without expat there is forever only chinese food in china???
also remember, expats are not the only foreigners in china, they are foreign business travelers and tourists.

What food do Chinese locals eat? Do you think that there would be an El Mexicano or Cantina Agave without foreign influence? If so, you are so frackin retarded that your head must be shoved straight up your rear so far that it's popped out your spine, which is why you're half a man in every respect.

And you're right, expats include foreign business travel and tourism. Imagine all that money being taken out of the economy here. Paints a pretty grim picture.

fWerrF wrote:

Marakanis wrote:

WOW, you ARE retarded... The dictionary definition of an expat is... Yep, you guessed it, the thing you just said is not what defines an expat.
You are the very definition of a world class MORON.

You just said that an expat isn't what an expat is defined as and you think I'm an idiot? You are so stupid it's hard to imagine you're able to breathe without deep concentrated thought.

As to the railroads, the Chinese were not slaves, they came over voluntarily. Was their treatment great? No, but they chose to be there. Mexicans washing dishes in a new york restaurant are indeed expats. Yes, that is the definition of an expat. MORON!

fWerrF wrote:

Marakanis wrote:

Please, continue to amuse us all with your insane idiotic dribbling. ...

like wise. i am amused by your continuous exhibition of stupidity.
keep it up Laughing

You're like a little monkey in a cage being poked with sticks, except you feel so high and mighty being the master of your little cage that you don't realize everyone outside is laughing and pointing at your stupid face.

zoolander

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Posted: Nov 04, 2009 - 09:27 AM

hahahahahaha... im back...

binky

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Posted: Nov 04, 2009 - 09:32 AM

fWerrF wrote:

Nobody would ever make that statement. Never is a long time.

But, as much as respect the ingenuity of the Chinese people and government, I am absolutely confident that without foreign investment and influence, Shanghai would not have developed nearly as fast as it did, nor would it currently look the same as it does now.

Seriously, you must know the history of Shanghai, right? Why is "Shanghai" even here today? Wasn't it a relatively obscure little fishing village before the foreigners arrived (wasn't even called Shanghai before: Hu or something like that, right?) Same deal with HK, right? And, looking outside China, we can say the same thing happened in Manila (which the Chinese also helped settle.)

This is not to say that foreigners are so much better than Chinese or whatever. Its just that wealth and opportunities are created at the point of contact between different cultures and economies. Not just today in China, but in many examples throughout history.

And open, trading cities like Shanghai directly benefit from this. Financially, intellectually and culturally. And we "expats" are one vehicle by which these benefits are being brought here (at least, some of us are...) Laughing

As to what constitutes an "Expat": for me, as long as someone still maintains significant culture, financial or emotional ties to his "motherland", and hasn't totally given up any idea of returning someday, he is an "Expat" in his heart.

However, when he crosses that mental line, and decides that his future is in his adopted land, and he will likely never truly return, he is an "Immigrant."

By this definition, many Mexicans are probably Immigrants in their hearts, if they intend to settle in the States, even if circumstances do not permit it. But those who just want to make a few bucks and return to their homes and families are actually Expats, even if they are only cleaning toilets or washing dishes.

jzzzzzzz

Veejay

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Posted: Nov 04, 2009 - 09:33 AM

Welcome back zooey. This thread was getting boring without you.

Marakanis
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Posts: 2944

Posted: Nov 04, 2009 - 09:38 AM

fWerrF wrote:

Chrisse wrote:

If it weren't for expats, the Chinese wouldn't even know they wanted those things. They can't even leave the country without asking permission of the government you tool! Most are DENIED!

If expats didn't come here and show them what COULD be achieved, they would never know they want to achieve it. Good or bad, this place would be a complete crapper by the rest of the world's standards without an expat influence. Imagine Hong Kong without the brits...

It'd be just another crappy province with piss and crap all over the streets...