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Is it really rudeness?

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SH_steveABC

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Posted: Sep 16, 2009 - 12:05 PM
Post subject: Is it really rudeness?

Many threads about the ways that Chinese people are "rude"- pushing on/off subway, cutting in line, etc. We've all experienced it, complained about it, even adopted some of these practices. But I haven't read a threat yet that asks a more basic question.....why?

There are two possibilities:
1. People here know they are rude: "I fully realize that I'm being a jerk by cutting in line but I'm going to do it anyway".

vs.

2. Because these practices are so widespread they have become social norms and not considered anti-social behavior and are culturally acceptable: "It's OK to cut in line, everyone expects it and there's nothing wrong with it".

I have to admit I'm not sure which to think it is. When someone cuts in front of me and I give them a hearty push back and "Ni you shemne wenti?!" They look at me like I'm an alien, as if I chastised them for tying their shoelace. But then then I can see that even locals get annoyed by the most belligerent offenders. So I'm not sure whether to think of it as just "the culture" here, just like people using chopsticks and not be driven crazy by it- or to really see it as some odd, maladaptive culturally anomaly. 20 million rude people jammed into one city....

Now the second question I wonder, regardless of whether people are conscious of their behavior or not is:

How does a society evolve where pushing and cutting in line become tolerated if not plain acceptable? I've heard many theories from other expats:
1. One child policy makes people self centered as many of them have grown up spoiled "little emperors". But a lot of the questionable behavior comes from older people that grew up with siblings.
2. The cultural revolution and times of poverty and famine made the "every man for himself" attitude a matter of survival. But, then that doesn't explain the young businessman who shoves the pregnant women out of his way on the subway (obviously too young to have experience Great Leap Forward).
3. It's a result of over-crowding and Darwinian principles, if you don't act this way and everyone else does, then you will never get on the subway and never get to work. But we see cities like Tokyo or South Korea or Manhatten, very over crowded but has some semblance of order.

I'm just curious to look at all this craziness from a deeper level and see what type of cultural or philosophical things could lead to how people behave here. I want to move beyond the typical post, "China sucks and all the people here are rude!" or "I can't believe I got spit on AGAIN!" Surely there is an explanation. Looking forward to some insightful answers....hopefully.

Office

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Posted: Sep 16, 2009 - 11:12 PM

combination of all the above....i think you more or less answered your own question

Andreas
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Posted: Sep 16, 2009 - 11:16 PM

Yep, thats about right. It all comes down to a lack of basic social skills, which you find at every level of society here.

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dfoo

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Posted: Sep 17, 2009 - 02:35 AM

What makes you think it is tolerated or acceptable? Its not just foreigners that find shoving-in annoying. I frequently see Chinese people telling off others for shoving-in.

Marakanis
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Posted: Sep 17, 2009 - 03:31 AM

Some have learned, some have not. Some are just self-righteous assholes who don't understand how the pain they inflict on others could just as easily be directed right back at them. I mean... I've seen people trying to get on a train and even though there's room to move further in, people don't budge an inch while more people are trying to get on. That's how people end up smeared between two closing doors.

There's a definite lack of empathy here. I can see it in their eyes.

jeffo

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Posted: Sep 17, 2009 - 08:02 AM

I think the environment has a lot of influence on people, I saw numerous "good looking/normal" expats acts as scumbags too. You know the "I'm the only expat in town" syndrome.

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Andreas
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Posted: Sep 17, 2009 - 09:51 AM

dfoo wrote:

What makes you think it is tolerated or acceptable? Its not just foreigners that find shoving-in annoying. I frequently see Chinese people telling off others for shoving-in.

That's right. There's a growing number of Chinese people, that are getting fed up with this cattle mentality and behaviour as well.

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JasUK

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Posted: Sep 20, 2009 - 03:15 PM

Chinese behaviour is annoying but again i undertsand this is not my home, UK. Its not just subways its elevators, it waiting to served at check out it happens regularly. If it happens i just say something in English they look think you little crazy and then step to one side. It helps if you are tall covered in tattoos and little crazy looking i find it works.

Last edited by JasUK on Sep 28, 2009 - 11:42 AM; edited 1 time in total

midway

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Posted: Sep 28, 2009 - 09:20 AM
Post subject: Re: Is it really rudeness?

SH_steveABC wrote:

When someone cuts in front of me and I give them a hearty push back and "Ni you shemne wenti?!"

lol, do that again！

SH_steveABC wrote:

1. One child policy makes people self centered as many of them have grown up spoiled "little emperors". But a lot of the questionable behavior comes from older people that grew up with siblings.
2. The cultural revolution and times of poverty and famine made the "every man for himself" attitude a matter of survival. But, then that doesn't explain the young businessman who shoves the pregnant women out of his way on the subway (obviously too young to have experience Great Leap Forward).
3. It's a result of over-crowding and Darwinian principles, if you don't act this way and everyone else does, then you will never get on the subway and never get to work. But we see cities like Tokyo or South Korea or Manhatten, very over crowded but has some semblance of order.

I'm Chinese and this is how I would interpret it：

I think over-crowding has definitely contributed to this, New York or Tokyo is not even at the same level. And 10 or 20 years ago, when China's infrastructure and public transportation was much less developed, it was a lot worse. I've read stories about how people had to sleep in the luggage rack of the train to save luggage space for their friends who are boarding. I think the chaos and fear back then had become collective memory of the nation that up until this day people still feel they have to fight to get to everywhere.

And I think the "every man for himself" attitude is true too. Beside the lingering socio-psychological effect of the cultural revolution and other political movements, Chinese culture emphasis so much on one's own family, that the sense of community, public, and sadly, empathy towards "strangers", is somehow missing. People care deeply about their family and friends, but not so much about "other people". However, when they take you as a 'true friend', they go out of the way to help.

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SnappySammy

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Posted: Oct 01, 2009 - 09:24 AM

Maybe they, the Chinese, think we are rude...

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Duduzhengyu

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Posted: Oct 04, 2009 - 01:52 AM

I 've seen this topic for countless times. It made me take a deep think. After having life in Netherlands and Czech, I found people are always rude in some aspects which may considered as a culture to local residents instead of a rude movement any more.
People cut in line, pushing on/off subway in China because some of them are not well educated to cover their self-center nature of human being with decent behaviors, some of them are afraid they would not get what they want or get on the metro by not doing this.
When I was a little kid, I was told to grab whatever were offered to you and think later. That was a poor age for Chinese, people didn't have enough food or goods for daily consumption. Though now in most cities in China, it's not an issue any more. Chinese people, deep down, are still holding the frightening that they might not able to get it, which reflects on their behaviors such as cutting in the line "I am in front of you, I can get the food, or service"; pushing on the subway to make sure they get the places for themselves. Some of them are just simply being selfish and indifferent to others.
To be honest, the first time I came back to hometown, shanghai, from the Netherlands after one year, I was shocked by people's rude behaviors and wondered why it did not seem to be that bothering and annoying for the last 22 years .
However change needs time. It's getting better if you compare it with that in the days before ( it's not quite easy for expats. It requires a significant long-period of living in China) instead of comparing it with your own country. Smile

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KalanStar

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Posted: Oct 24, 2009 - 12:23 PM

I'm tall, so if someone is being a particularily obnoxious pusher, usually on the bus, I try to elbow them in the head Laughing

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jinganjosh

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Posted: Oct 24, 2009 - 12:53 PM

jeffo wrote:

I think the environment has a lot of influence on people, I saw numerous "good looking/normal" expats acts as scumbags too. You know the "I'm the only expat in town" syndrome.

I've obviously had my share of rude locals, but what gets my goat is the utter hypocrisy with which expats conduct themselves when they think nobody's looking. Because I'm of Asian descent, they cut in taxi queues in front of me with impunity, until I say in English "um there's a line".

Any anger that I feel however, is quickly changed to a satisfied chuckle when their faces betray their embarrassment of being caught red handed engaging in behavior that they themselves complain about endlessly. Priceless.

On a sidenote, of course I can't stand the complete lack of social etiquette here, but in a way, don't you all think the locals are just being more honest? In the event of a great catastrophe, such as Katrina, didn't all the seemingly civilized citizens suddenly turn into looters and opportunists? All those years of upbringing metaphorically washed away in an instant. At least if a disaster happened here, the social degeneration wouldn't be quite so shocking.

Chingis

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Posted: Oct 24, 2009 - 08:15 PM

Jinganjosh said

Quote:

Any anger that I feel however, is quickly changed to a satisfied chuckle when their faces betray their embarrassment of being caught red handed engaging in behavior that they themselves complain about endlessly. Priceless.

So it's exactly the same people? How do you know this, or is it that they are all a kind of white colour, which is the same thing afterall? Or maybe you mean you heard these people both cutting in line, and at the same time complaining about others cutting in line...please tell

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jinganjosh

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Posted: Oct 24, 2009 - 08:56 PM

My earlier post never mentioned anything about skin color, but if you insist on trying to paint me as a racist, why not! While I hate to generalize, unfortunately the easiest way to identify expats is by the color of their skin. But my point applies to expats of any color Smile

Anyway, it seems to me, from my countless social gatherings here, that a favorite pastime of most, (not all) expats here is to complain about China.

These days I try very hard not to do so, but we all have those days. So yes, I'm unfortunately a member of the whiners club. It's unavoidable and not entirely reproachable.

But what is reproachable, is when members of the expat community engages in the very same behavior that the community as a whole so obviously disapproves of. This is the group of expats that belong in the rudeness club.

I'm not sure whether every single one of these expat line cutters ALSO complain about China, but for some reason, I'm guessing that there's a hefty chunk of expats here in Shanghai that belongs to both groups. Personally I'm acquainted with a few expats who would complain about a rude waiter and then turn around and yell from across the room, PI JIU! WO YAO PI JIU!

Their motto is probably "If you can't beat em, join em! (but don't get caught. and then complain about them)"

lostinchina

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Posted: Oct 25, 2009 - 12:41 AM

I think standing in orderly lines must be a Western custom. I haven't seen it practiced in Asia, except in Singapore. And no doubt we Westerners have many customs that are accepted at home which strike Chinese as offensive.

rick_SH

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Posted: Oct 25, 2009 - 02:28 AM

Well I consider Chinese drivers to be the same as posters like InsaneAsylum. Chinese drivers when they are driving know that there are not enough police that actually care to do anything, so they all act like they own the roads. They will do whatever they want like driving on the wrong side of the road because they know they are virtually sure not to face any penalties. I kind of am reminded of that corny movie Iron Eagle in the 80s and Lou Gosset Jr. telling the kid when you are flying think you have an iron eagle around you and you cannot be hurt.

Well posters like InsaneAsylum use internet anonymity to act just like Chinese drivers. He can post whatever he wants and he knows it will make no difference. I am sure in real life he is just a 70 kg kitty or 200 kg lard ass who gets his jollies at being anonymous. You have to realize, the average Shanghai citizen does not do these kinds of things, (well the driving things they do, all Chinese drive like they are the kings of the road, well except for the women... but we won't go there) it is the migrant population that does 80% of the things that you are speaking of. Don't get me wrong, I don't like Shanghai people, I find them pretty cold for the most part, nothing like Beijing people who are a thousand times better and much warmer, but Shanghai people are polite and follow most of the norms of society. But when you combine the locals with the migrants, everyone just assumes everyone is shanghai people.

rick_SH

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Posted: Oct 25, 2009 - 02:29 AM

lostinchina wrote:

No way... go to Hong Kong... people actually stand in proper lines and wait for crossing lights to turn green before crossing the road.

Donjuan

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Posted: Oct 25, 2009 - 02:12 PM

maybe 100 years later,they will behave the way your expected. Smile

People are hard to change, especially in terms of social behaviors, they are just used to it. Believe me, people are aware of this; they certainly don't like this. Like the adage goes, Rome isn't built in one day. They need time.
Hopefully, 100 years later we can witness the change together

KalanStar

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Posted: Oct 27, 2009 - 07:59 AM

rick_SH wrote:

lostinchina wrote:

No way... go to Hong Kong... people actually stand in proper lines and wait for crossing lights to turn green before crossing the road.

What planet are you from. Of course it's a Western custom, and of course they would follow it in Hong Kong as it was a British dictatorship for a 100 years! The Brits probably beat the crap out of Chinese who would not que in the old days.

And Beijingers being the kindest??? WTF??? I thought they were the rudest. "Children of the Emperor" and all that BS. Beijing is the Berlin or Toronto of China.

zillahh

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Posted: Oct 28, 2009 - 03:02 PM

KalanStar wrote:

rick_SH wrote:

lostinchina wrote:

No way... go to Hong Kong... people actually stand in proper lines and wait for crossing lights to turn green before crossing the road.

my .02 jiao

Line standing culture was developed in Russia.

Courtesy was developed in England in the west and Japan in the east.

'Most' East Asian countries maintain a semblance of common courtesy when waiting in line/queue. (reminds me of a "if the tree falls in the forest, do you hear any noise?" analogy.)

At any given moment in this town, any person, is capable of socio-path behavior. Numbers weigh heavily in the local column (there’s millions of them.)

Old ladies are the worst (most blatant.) Followed by middle aged ladies.

Chengdu has the friendliest people in this country.

Shanghai princesses have great hair.

Shanghai is a fun city. Not every bodies cup o' tea.

All forigners should take a break from this city every once in a while. It helps reduce the odds of getting run over.

kikibroom

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Posted: Nov 16, 2009 - 06:20 PM

These are all "urban survival syndrome", the city is overload with human beings.

tihZ_hO
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Posted: Nov 16, 2009 - 07:55 PM

Andreas wrote:

dfoo wrote:

What makes you think it is tolerated or acceptable? Its not just foreigners that find shoving-in annoying. I frequently see Chinese people telling off others for shoving-in.

That's right. There's a growing number of Chinese people, that are getting fed up with this cattle mentality and behaviour as well.

Exactly

I was told by many Chinese that they have been influenced when they have travelled to other countries and found that people aren't the same as in China. If you have nothing to compare to then it's not easy to imagine something different.

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tihZ_hO
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Posted: Nov 16, 2009 - 08:08 PM

KalanStar wrote:

rick_SH wrote:

lostinchina wrote:

No way... go to Hong Kong... people actually stand in proper lines and wait for crossing lights to turn green before crossing the road.

I agree that it was the British influence for Hong Kongnese.

Don't think that Chinese do not have social skills or politeness, they do BUT it is NOT public! Therefore it is not obvious to you or me.

There is definitely a decorum to be followed: Someone who is superior will always walk through a doorway first even though they might indicate a lower status person to go first. Where one sits at a table is important. When clinking glasses in a toast a person of lower position makes sure their glass is lower than the person of a higher position. And many more.

At a former company my production manager was very tradional and from Mongolia. There was almost NO WAY he would go through the door before me no matter how hard I would try! haha If however I did manage to get him though first he would have a very troubled look on his face so I stopped trying. He was a very good guy!

Chinese people are not purposly being rude, it just doesn't occur to them what they are doing might be taken the wrong way - they haven't been brought up this way and haven't experienced anything different.