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Humac
FooJay
Joined: July 07, 2007
Posts: 1619
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 Posted:
Oct 12, 2009 - 09:17 PM |
 
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| LadyofLeisure wrote: |
| ... because when they grow up they will need to take over my factories... |
Yes, quite incredible, as I'm sure lol will realise when she rereads what she wrote... |
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monalisalee
Veejay
Joined: May 10, 2005
Posts: 2019
Location: Shanghai
Status: Online!
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Oct 12, 2009 - 09:32 PM |
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lifeMage: Well put
"I will make you a free thinker so you will follow the path I lay cown for you". |
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johnboy88 |
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leidelaohu
Board Lord
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 5751
Status: Online!
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Oct 12, 2009 - 09:32 PM |
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| Humac wrote: |
| LadyofLeisure wrote: |
| ... because when they grow up they will need to take over my factories... |
Yes, quite incredible, as I'm sure lol will realise when she rereads what she wrote... |
You know, guys ... being capable of independent thought does not preclude having responsibilities ... being a leader requires problem-solving abilities and non-rote solutions but it doesn't mean you can do whatever the hell you want. |
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Humac
FooJay
Joined: July 07, 2007
Posts: 1619
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Oct 12, 2009 - 09:49 PM |
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| leidelaohu wrote: |
| Humac wrote: |
| LadyofLeisure wrote: |
| ... because when they grow up they will need to take over my factories... |
Yes, quite incredible, as I'm sure lol will realise when she rereads what she wrote... |
You know, guys ... being capable of independent thought does not preclude having responsibilities ... being a leader requires problem-solving abilities and non-rote solutions but it doesn't mean you can do whatever the hell you want. |
The point being, though, that the parents have mapped out the child's future, not the child. |
Last edited by Humac on Oct 12, 2009 - 09:49 PM; edited 1 time in total |
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Kirishima
Talker
Joined: Oct 22, 2008
Posts: 115
Status: Offline
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Oct 12, 2009 - 09:49 PM |
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you know, when you are saying that state school kids are mindless zombies over and over, and then say that kids from a private school aren't in control of their future, well, frankly it sticks in my craw. Whatever the hell you want...yes, that is what a truly independent person could do...oh, i see, just independent enough to accept whatever job is in the family and to hell with their own personal goals. It's that kind of independent parents want. Thanks, but i prefer the state school's "freedom" |
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Shady_Slim
Reacher
Joined: Dec 08, 2008
Posts: 219
Location: Out by the next hutong...
Status: Offline
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Oct 12, 2009 - 10:08 PM |
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| StMichael wrote: |
| Shady_Slim wrote: |
| Been told over the weekend about a Singapore international school in Hongqiao, where the fees are not astronomical. lots of asian children there whose parents are not on the cushy high end expat packages, maybe you could give that a try? |
*Scratches head* If there is one at Hongqiao, I am likely to know about it. The main campus of the Singapore International School is at Zhudi town, near the American School. The smaller campus (mine) is at the southern part of Xuhui district. My school has the cheapest tuition of all schools holding international school licences. |
Yes, you are correct, apologies for getting the district wrong, it does have the cheapest fees amongst the rest and i m sure its good as a good mate of mine has his kids there, and they are pretty bright... |
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Don't argue with an idiot; people watching may not be able to tell the difference. |
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StMichael
Rocker
Joined: Feb 19, 2005
Posts: 783
Location: Qibao, Shanghai
Status: Offline
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Oct 12, 2009 - 10:10 PM |
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Still not cheap though, even if it is the cheapest. Tuition for a grade 1-3 kid will set you back RMB88k a year. |
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Michael Chan www.senseimichael.com |
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leidelaohu
Board Lord
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 5751
Status: Online!
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Oct 12, 2009 - 10:12 PM |
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| Humac wrote: |
| The point being, though, that the parents have mapped out the child's future, not the child. |
And that's been true for every single king or queen in history. But they still have to be able to think independently. You can't look up the answers in a book. Solving today's problems by applying grandpa's answers is not effective.
One major trouble with Chinese education is that it teaches people to revere authority. But what happens when a person who has never learned to think analytically becomes the authority ? Look around you and you will see. |
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Humac
FooJay
Joined: July 07, 2007
Posts: 1619
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Oct 12, 2009 - 10:23 PM |
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| leidelaohu wrote: |
| Humac wrote: |
| The point being, though, that the parents have mapped out the child's future, not the child. |
And that's been true for every single king or queen in history. But they still have to be able to think independently. You can't look up the answers in a book. Solving today's problems by applying grandpa's answers is not effective.
One major trouble with Chinese education is that it teaches people to revere authority. But what happens when a person who has never learned to think analytically becomes the authority ? Look around you and you will see. |
Royal families...independent thought?  |
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Humac
FooJay
Joined: July 07, 2007
Posts: 1619
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Oct 12, 2009 - 10:24 PM |
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Sorry, that little laughing thing looks like I'm being rude when I'm just trying to be amusing... |
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monalisalee
Veejay
Joined: May 10, 2005
Posts: 2019
Location: Shanghai
Status: Online!
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Oct 12, 2009 - 10:42 PM |
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Royal families: Full of incestuous behaviour leading to craziness. Good example to follow.
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But what happens when a person who has never learned to think analytically becomes the authority ? Look around you and you will see.
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Yeah right. This is George W Bush you were referring to I think. Where thousands of innocent people were killed by being dragged into a war that was started with misinformation and lies.
BUT: I didn't know he was educated in China.
Hell, you learn something every day.  |
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johnboy88 |
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Kirishima
Talker
Joined: Oct 22, 2008
Posts: 115
Status: Offline
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Oct 12, 2009 - 10:48 PM |
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All societies revere authority. Teachers, Police, the Law, Parents...can kids just ride roughshot over them in the west? No. there's a difference between respect for authority and brainwashing, and i don't believe in the latter. Have you met a state school teacher? I have, and they are most definitely not all out to brainwash the kids.
Leidelaohu makes a very good argument, about the lack of analysis in Chinese education (rather than offensively labelling kids mindless zombies like some others...) and I think that it is true. |
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leidelaohu
Board Lord
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 5751
Status: Online!
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Oct 12, 2009 - 10:54 PM |
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| Humac wrote: |
| Royal families...independent thought? |
Humac, you're not cheap enough for those glib Republican one-liners 
And I'm shocked - MoaningLisa hit the nail on the head. Bush is a happy-face non-thinking follower. What happens when you get that kind of person in authority ?
| Kirishima wrote: |
| (rather than offensively labelling kids mindless zombies like some others...) |
Well, they do become mindless zombies but that's not the kids' fault. It's the point of the entire system.
I used to think the examination system was a wonderful thing. That was before I realized the power that the people who wrote the examinations had. Of course they created a situation where people just like themselves would be successful. This was the road off the farm for a thousand years. Do you think this hasn't had a powerful influence on Chinese society ?
About "respect for authority", well ... there are times and there are times. My own time was of the rebellious sort  |
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iara
Fire-eater
Joined: June 09, 2006
Posts: 2658
Location: brazil-shanghai
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Oct 13, 2009 - 12:21 AM |
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October,2004...We had a similar discussion with a Concordia teacher and a principal. My son had arrived in a strange country, with strange people,going to a strange school,learning his first english words, totally sad and scared to hell.
One day he came back from school with an envelope with a few hairs inside and a letter from the teacher: you son had a bad behavior in class today and he cutted a piece of hair from a friend's doll. This isn't acceptable. We all agreed, I made him take some money that his grandmother gave him and we bought a new barbie doll and he gave it to his friend. A few days later: your son hit a kid in the bus, this isn't acceptable. I went to school next day with him, made him apologize the kid (my son a pre-schooler, the kid, a chinese 1st grader) on front his parents.
Next day I received an email from the kid parents: sorry our son told us that it wasn't your son's fault, that our son started a fight and your son just try to defend himself. Of course, for his teacher he was still a bad boy. And she adviced us to look for a doctor and ask some medicine to calm him down, because he was too active and didn't stop all day.
Few days later: you son had a bad behavior again, I sendt him to the principal's office, so he could sit there and think about it, but later he was there and laughing! He is an evil child, you need to put God in his heart!
Enough!
My husband and me, we went there and ask for a conference with the teacher and the principal. Making a long story short: husband was questioning if the school wanted to teach robots and "angels" or if they wanted children that could face challenges and use their minds, and fight to a better world. Because we werent paying that much to have a kid that obbeys everyone everytime without asking why. Our boy would question, and argue, and talk, and scream to be listened, and they wouldn't dare to put him in a cross like they did with the Jesus they have hanging in every wall!
A 3 and half year boy cannot be considered evil or be accused of things that he even understand were happening.
And we want him using his brain, his heart, his sould to do whatever he wants when he grows up. He will decide. And is why he is at Concordia. As we come from a Catholic country, but we aren't catholic at all at home, we need to give him the chance of knowing his grand parents religion. Later, when he is ready to understand, we will tell him what we think about religion and in what we believed (our God is a bit better than this One that punishes everyone for every "sin" ). And we will also talk about every religion possible, and maybe he will choose to be an atheist, who knows?
Well, it was our first and last fight in the school. The next teacher was really good and he knew how to handle every situation.
I don't know the chinese schools by experience, so I just can talk about others experiences and about what I see around me. And see people around me that cannot think by themselves, that are quite good in math, and memorization, but cannot explain what they learnt - the sky is blue. Why it's blue? because is on the book, because the master said so, because isn't red. They can't think about why or if it could change, or about any possibility.
It's not their fault. The system works like this, and it will untill who knows when.
When I was kid, I was in private schools and public schools. At that time public schools were really good in Brazil. Untill now our best universities are the public ones, and its 100% free. But to enter one of these nowadays if a kid doesn't attend a private school from 6 to 17 years old, it will be almost impossible to get a place in these good public universities.
So, now, we have 90% of people that could pay for a private university, but pass the exam in the public ones and get the spot there. While most people that can't afford are in private universities at night, working at day to pay the fees.
It's why I believe that a good school for your child will give him a chance to fight for a better place in a good university later, or if he becomes a s**t useless "vagabond" , at least he will have a good vocabulary and grammar! |
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I'm my husband slave! |
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helloasia2
Squeeker
Joined: Aug 12, 2009
Posts: 12
Status: Offline
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 Posted:
Oct 13, 2009 - 01:21 AM |
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I wouldn't say zombie, but I do think many students that come out of the Chinese school system today are pretty 'cookie cutter': good in math/sci, poor in communicating and critical thinking. They're smart and hard-working but not particularly creative or bold. And I think that's how the Government likes them. |
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leidelaohu
Board Lord
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 5751
Status: Online!
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Oct 13, 2009 - 01:26 AM |
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| helloasia2 wrote: |
| ... good in math/sci, poor in communicating and critical thinking.. |
How can you be good in science and poor at critical thinking ? Good lab technicians maybe, always feed the rats on time, but imaginative breakthroughs ? |
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helloasia2
Squeeker
Joined: Aug 12, 2009
Posts: 12
Status: Offline
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Oct 13, 2009 - 01:57 AM |
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Not big into science are you? A strong foundation in mathematics helps in the practice and theory of science. There's a lot of rote memorization going on when you are learning the basics of science. You're not exactly getting a chance to be creative with lab rats in middle school/high school if you get my gist. |
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LadyofLeisure
Reacher
Joined: Aug 03, 2009
Posts: 272
Location: Pudong
Status: Offline
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Oct 13, 2009 - 08:28 AM |
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I think the system works perfectly here because it is impossible to have everyone a forward thinking individual. What would the government do with all of them?
Here is what helps the system:
 One Child policy - can't have kids talking to each other at home and learn to be independant from the their brother or sister. Also without a sibling it's harder to make friends.
Don't question the teacher - what a perfect system!!! It is not considered acceptable for the parent to be their child's advocate at school. The teacher is always right (learned this from my Chinese friends)
Load the kiddies down with a staggering amount of homework - this way they have no time to go out and play with friends and relax - important to keep the kids apart
It seems that we have several readers of ShanghaiExpat who have gone to local schools. Why the big chip on your shoulder?
I saw this special on the Discovery channel about what Chinese parents do to their independant thinking children - the one's who don't want to do what they are told - they send them to boot camp! At this camp they make the little children hike all day and do manual labor because tiring them out will help make them into mindless zombies. The whole time the parents are crying on camera - please help me, I need junior to become "normal" so they can go get a good job and support me in my old age. God forbid, if a child doesn't support good old mom and dad. Everywhere the poor kid turns the system is working against them!
To finish my story about my lovely HK friend - I tell her that while she may want her kids to run the family business when they grow up - most likely they will go their own way since they are being brought up as independent thinkers. She agreed with me and said, at least she has 3 kids and one of them might be interested in the business. It's a 50/50 chance she is willing to take! |
_________________
If bored visit the website: www.peopleofwalmart.com good for a laugh! |
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Ah Beng
Rocker
Joined: May 14, 2008
Posts: 779
Location: Shanghai Paradise
Status: Offline
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Oct 13, 2009 - 09:02 AM |
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irregardless where you choose to send your kids to school, the parents play the crucial role modelling. Schools teach the facts, parents teaches the values.
How the child turns out, well it depends on the upbringing, isn't it?
If you can afford the exobidant 1st class private fees, fine go ahead. If you can't go the economy route, the destinations is the same anyhow. |
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leidelaohu
Board Lord
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 5751
Status: Online!
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Oct 13, 2009 - 09:15 AM |
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| helloasia2 wrote: |
| Not big into science are you? A strong foundation in mathematics helps in the practice and theory of science. There's a lot of rote memorization going on when you are learning the basics of science. |
Au contraire, madame. In the sciences there are a very few postulates. The rest derives from critical thinking and subsequent test. No need to memorize anything, merely understand what other people have discovered and bob's your uncle. One could rebuild the entire edifice of the sciences by oneself given the abilities and the time. In fact, most of the big directional changes in the sciences have come when someone re-examined something previously thought to be true and said "Hmm, I don't think so." There are no static "truths" to memorize.
Memorization is a liability in the sciences ... unless you are a chinese "scientist." (Lab rats thru mazes, anyone ?)
| Quote: |
| You're not exactly getting a chance to be creative with lab rats in middle school/high school if you get my gist. |
I take it you belong to the great unwashed ? This is one reason education in the US has diminished in quality - too much parental interference. Mathematics is not about memorization but most parents are not capable of dealing with thought either. So they pressure schools to discard anything beyond their own limited abilities. SMSG was a failure because the parents couldn't do the homework ... so we are headed more in the Chinese direction ourselves. Sad. |
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ladylady
Reacher
Joined: Aug 29, 2007
Posts: 259
Status: Offline
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Oct 13, 2009 - 02:10 PM |
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| monalisalee wrote: |
Here's a story for the OP ratty, and others who are NOT anti everything Chinese, and have open minds.
Recently I did a trial at a TOP senior school in Shanghai.
Name: Shanghai Jinyuan Senior High School. State School.
etc.. etc...
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Mona –
I too had a similarly eye opening experience teaching English at a local middle school in Lu Jia Zui. I saw each of the middle school classes for 40 mins each week, plus ran 2 ‘invitation only’ English Corners and a special optional after school Friday class. My English Corners and Friday classes were amazing! The kids would talk about all sorts of things and were as bright and curious and interesting as any smart middle school kid I’ve met in the US or UK. Hardly zombies.
Sadly – there was a flip side to this. As I said – English corner was ‘by invitation only’ and only the top students were allowed to attend. Classes were segregated by performance and there was an obvious difference in the way that the smarter kids were treated and respected by the teachers and peers vs. even the next ones down on the ladder. All the top kids were junior members of the party at the school and participated in special events and competitions. The kids in the bottom classes looked depressed and beaten down.
In China I believe, only a % of middle schools even get the opportunity to go to high school (school is compulsory only through middle school), and not all high school graduates attend university. In China, they use the results of a single college entrance test to decide which kids go to which schools. Hence the ranking, and pressure, and cramming that goes on.
While I see alot of hope for the future - I’d hate to be an ‘average’ student in China right now. |
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alixiw
Reacher
Joined: June 19, 2009
Posts: 292
Status: Offline
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Oct 13, 2009 - 02:35 PM |
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| LadyofLeisure wrote: |
| Shady_Slim wrote: |
| Been told over the weekend about a Singapore international school in Hongqiao, where the fees are not astronomical. lots of asian children there whose parents are not on the cushy high end expat packages, maybe you could give that a try? |
Jealous much????  |
I don't think his/her statement has anything to do with jealousy. Their statement just states the facts. Most parents who send their kids to the international schools which charge these insane prices do not pay for their tuition out of their own pockets. They're usually on "the cushy high end expat packages". |
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LadyofLeisure
Reacher
Joined: Aug 03, 2009
Posts: 272
Location: Pudong
Status: Offline
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Oct 13, 2009 - 03:10 PM |
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Not true - for our school upwards of 50% of the parents pay the tuition themselves..... |
_________________
If bored visit the website: www.peopleofwalmart.com good for a laugh! |
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yangl
Squeeker
Joined: May 12, 2009
Posts: 14
Status: Offline
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Oct 13, 2009 - 04:06 PM |
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| Quote: |
irregardless where you choose to send your kids to school, the parents play the crucial role modelling. Schools teach the facts, parents teaches the values.
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Agree with your point, however, "irregardless" is not a word, but "regardless" is. Everytime I see/hear "irregardless" being used, I just have to correct it. |
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Humac
FooJay
Joined: July 07, 2007
Posts: 1619
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Oct 13, 2009 - 04:18 PM |
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| yangl wrote: |
| Quote: |
irregardless where you choose to send your kids to school, the parents play the crucial role modelling. Schools teach the facts, parents teaches the values.
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Agree with your point, however, "irregardless" is not a word, but "regardless" is. Everytime I see/hear "irregardless" being used, I just have to correct it. |
As much as we don't want it to be, irregardless is, indeed, a word. You can google it...lots of interesting (if you're a pedant like me) stuff on it. |
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