Shanghai Expat

Questions and Answers - cellphone sms eavesdropping: fact or fiction?
8lrr8 - July 02, 2009 - 09:00 PM
Post subject: cellphone sms eavesdropping: fact or fiction?
i was told there's a black market service here where all u have to do is give the "service provider" the cell # (and not the physical sim card) of the person u want to spy on, and they can make it so all sms' and call logs will be forwarded to your cellphone. i'm not sure if they can let u eavesdrop on phone calls that are made from the phone, but the sms fwding feature is for sure.

this would for example be extremely useful to confirm one's suspicions of a cheating partner.


so is this a myth or reality? i have my doubts but w/ this being china, i'm not quite so sure...
Andreas - July 02, 2009 - 09:25 PM
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I am not sure about having them forwarded to your cell phone, but you can definitely 'buy' the transcripts if you know the right peeps at your provider. It's highly illegal of course, so it will cost you.
8lrr8 - July 02, 2009 - 09:40 PM
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if the story was they could do it upon physically receiving the sim card, i'd believe it. but if a cell # is all they have to work w/, it seems like it'd require some deep connections w/ very specific people working at china mobile et al...
Andreas - July 02, 2009 - 09:42 PM
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For money everything is possible in this country. And yep, only the number is enough.
Marakanis - July 02, 2009 - 11:23 PM
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8lrr8 wrote:
if the story was they could do it upon physically receiving the sim card, i'd believe it. but if a cell # is all they have to work w/, it seems like it'd require some deep connections w/ very specific people working at china mobile et al...


It depends on how they store the information. I think AT&T is pretty strict about not logging each individual text and storing the text. While those logs are stored SOMEWHERE, not just any employee can access those files and they're pretty strictly watched over (accessing them would set off some alarm bells somewhere). However, most employees can check your bill and from that you can see who texts who and how often and exactly when.

Now in China, who knows how they store SMS information and where. If any employee can open up the files and look at it, it's obviously not so secure so it wouldn't be difficult to get a look, and given the lax security protocols I've seen at some companies, it's not hard to imagine that any employee might take a gander at your SMS messages.
8lrr8 - July 02, 2009 - 11:40 PM
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Marakanis wrote:
If any employee can open up the files and look at it, it's obviously not so secure so it wouldn't be difficult to get a look, and given the lax security protocols I've seen at some companies, it's not hard to imagine that any employee might take a gander at your SMS messages.
the question wasnt about if a cellphone employee can pull up your sms's. it was about if there exists a service the general public can purchase from a "black market" individual who can allow u read another person's sms's in real-time.
leidelaohu - July 02, 2009 - 11:55 PM
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8lrr8 wrote:
the question wasnt about if a cellphone employee can pull up your sms's. it was about if there exists a service the general public can purchase from a "black market" individual who can allow u read another person's sms's in real-time.

Why the dickbrain above is talking about AT&T I have no idea. China Mobile does have all the sms messages stored and if you have the phone's owner's ID card or a copy therof you can get those records. So people who cheat on their husbands / wives are careful about their sms if they are smart.

About the "service" you speak of, I wouldn't bet that it can't be done.
ziccawei - July 03, 2009 - 12:01 AM
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If you lose your phone, you can get your old number back by giving China Mobile the last ten numbers you either called or sms'd. If they have that information then I strongly suspect that it would be possible to 'eavesdrop' on sms messages and calls.

No doubt highly illegal in the West, but in China money talks and Marakanus walks.
KarmaComa - July 03, 2009 - 12:05 AM
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Marakanis wrote:
8lrr8 wrote:
if the story was they could do it upon physically receiving the sim card, i'd believe it. but if a cell # is all they have to work w/, it seems like it'd require some deep connections w/ very specific people working at china mobile et al...


It depends on how they store the information. I think AT&T is pretty strict about not logging each individual text and storing the text. While those logs are stored SOMEWHERE, not just any employee can access those files and they're pretty strictly watched over (accessing them would set off some alarm bells somewhere). However, most employees can check your bill and from that you can see who texts who and how often and exactly when.

Now in China, who knows how they store SMS information and where. If any employee can open up the files and look at it, it's obviously not so secure so it wouldn't be difficult to get a look, and given the lax security protocols I've seen at some companies, it's not hard to imagine that any employee might take a gander at your SMS messages.


Yet more proof that you have no idea what you're talking about but it doesn't stop you from pulling sh#t out of your ass. Seriously man, give it a rest.
8lrr8 - July 03, 2009 - 12:16 AM
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leidelaohu wrote:
China Mobile does have all the sms messages stored and if you have the phone's owner's ID card or a copy therof you can get those records.
fair enough, but can a spouse get those records (w/o the other person's ID card)?

also, do u know if china mobile stores phone convos? i remember US cellphone companies record the previous month's convos in case the individual disputes making those calls. what about here in china?
leidelaohu wrote:
About the "service" you speak of, I wouldn't bet that it can't be done.
i agree it can be done. whether such a service is readily available (a la black market money changers) is another question.
Andreas - July 03, 2009 - 12:34 AM
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Again, you only need the number. And readily available is only a matter of money.
Mr Totomolo - July 03, 2009 - 12:48 AM
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8lrr8

I dont know about cellphones, but I can make a parabole: there is one company in Sichuan which sells over the internet FULL listings of ALL the chinese customs informations about import and export movements: shipper name and adress, consignee name and adress, commoditiies and custom tariff, etc...
You can buy listings in excel forms , by class of product, by country of destination or provenance etc...

And I know it is true, because they have shown me my own records, and i fell on my ass, litteraly

Like Andreas said, with money , everything is possible
Besides, dont forget that all phone have also the GPS function; if the emergency services (or a cheated spouse) can know the location of a phone at the exact meter, they surely can access the data.

Again another example a bit far from phones: the chinese police caught recently 2 guys who bought over the internet some devices to block the remote controls to perform the locking of cars (at the time the owner was thinking he had locked the car, the device had actually prevented the alarm system to lock the car, and they could steAL it easily)
if you can buy this kind of highly sophisticated device over the internet in china, you surely can buy spying devices too

If you have something to hide, dont call, dont write, dont read
leidelaohu - July 03, 2009 - 12:52 AM
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8lrr8 wrote:
[fair enough, but can a spouse get those records (w/o the other person's ID card)?

8lrr8, have you been a bad boy ? Remember those spy movies with the tiny little camera ? Now think ... you are living with someone. You've got a cell phone. Unless he or she stores their ID card up their ass, there's going to be an opportunity to take a photo. A copy is acceptable to China Mobile.

Intelligent cheaters have more than one phone.
sinned69 - July 03, 2009 - 01:21 AM
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Quote:
i was told there's a black market service here where all u have to do is give the "service provider" the cell # (and not the physical sim card) of the person u want to spy on, and they can make it so all sms' and call logs will be forwarded to your cellphone. i'm not sure if they can let u eavesdrop on phone calls that are made from the phone, but the sms fwding feature is for sure.

this would for example be extremely useful to confirm one's suspicions of a cheating partner.


so is this a myth or reality? i have my doubts but w/ this being china, i'm not quite so sure...


yes, it can be done, and easily.
both China Mobile and China Unicom (both China Telecom) keep sms and number logs on record, they can be retrieved for a fee and with the right connections, or simply using many private investigators who will/can get that info...
one only need to provide the mobile/phone number and the lists are provided on hardcopy, not sent via sms...
sinned69 - July 03, 2009 - 01:23 AM
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^no ID card is needed, just cell#, money &/or connections...
i know and experienced this first hand...
Wink
Marakanis - July 03, 2009 - 01:26 AM
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Such angry people today.

My point was, if you want to look at someone's text messages other than on their phone, you need access to the logs. I mentioned AT&T because I know that not just any employee can read the actual texts, but almost any employee can read the log of when texts were sent and to who.

In order to get a list of text messages on the "black market" you need people who are able to access the information. That (typically) means an employee. For AT&T to get the text of the messages themselves, not bloody likely.

Here in China, I have no idea. BUT, I imagine their security is more lax and that many people have access to the text logs, thus a higher chance of a black market where you can get someone's text messages.

Anyways, if you want to be safe, get a prepaid phone, and burn the phone when you're done.

In related news, there is software you can put on phones to discreetly auto-forward incoming and outgoing SMS' to another phone or e-mail.
Andreas - July 03, 2009 - 01:30 AM
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As sinned69 confirmed my story, it's easy as anyhting. How do you think companies (mine included) keep track of employees they suspect of stealing, cheating, or passing confidential information, or running their own business in company time?
Andreas - July 03, 2009 - 01:32 AM
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Marakanis wrote:
In order to get a list of text messages on the "black market" you need people who are able to access the information. That (typically) means an employee. For AT&T to get the text of the messages themselves, not bloody likely.


No 'black market' mate, but readily available information for the right price.
Marakanis - July 03, 2009 - 01:53 AM
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From where? From who?
8lrr8 - July 03, 2009 - 07:15 AM
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it seems the chic who told this to me (not my girl, btw) wasnt bullshitting at all. thx everyone for their responses!
ziccawei - July 03, 2009 - 08:55 AM
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Marakanis wrote:
From where? From who?


From a China Mobile employee, dumbass!

Rolling Eyes
Marakanis - July 03, 2009 - 11:15 AM
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ziccawei wrote:
Marakanis wrote:
From where? From who?


From a China Mobile employee, dumbass!

Rolling Eyes


(sigh) I mean SPECIFICALLY. How about a phone number or a website or something. Maybe a shady bar where they hang out to exchange info for cash.
Andreas - July 03, 2009 - 11:17 AM
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Marakanis wrote:
ziccawei wrote:
Marakanis wrote:
From where? From who?


From a China Mobile employee, dumbass!

Rolling Eyes


(sigh) I mean SPECIFICALLY. How about a phone number or a website or something. Maybe a shady bar where they hang out to exchange info for cash.


Mate, you watch way too many B-movies. You just ask any PI, or go to any of the bigger China Mobile shops.
ziccawei - July 03, 2009 - 11:19 AM
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I bet one of those guys that sell mobile phone cards knows someone.
zanderion - July 03, 2009 - 01:24 PM
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Get an anonymous pre-paid sim?
Marakanis - July 03, 2009 - 01:31 PM
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zanderion wrote:
Get an anonymous pre-paid sim?


I think Bing mentioned he was doing that, but the hassle of switching the sim card and remembering which one was in there was quite the pain.

The consensus was that you shouldn't cheap out on something like that. Just get a whole prepaid phone.
zanderion - July 03, 2009 - 01:55 PM
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well that too but sometimes the 2nd phone is more telling!
Marakanis - July 03, 2009 - 02:00 PM
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business phone... eh? =D
cantcheckemailnopw - July 03, 2009 - 02:24 PM
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You can get a 2 sim phone for under 1000RMB
Marakanis - July 03, 2009 - 02:26 PM
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Neat, how's that work? A switch or something? Got a link?
victorinchina - July 03, 2009 - 02:34 PM
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The ones I've seen works like this; when you switch the phone on, you get to chose which sim you want to use. Which IMO is a little lame, seeing that it is not very far from just switching the cards in the first place.
Maybe today they are improved, I don't know.

Anyway, that won't really help if you don't want your partner to read your messages. I would still go with the 2 different phones solution, and make sure the cheating one was with password and only on when something was about to take place. Oh, and keep it out of reach of your partner. At work or somewhere she won't look.
(I learned the tricks from all the Taiwanese guys back at my old job in Shenzhen. They seem to be masters of cheating on the wifes. Wink )
compsolutions - July 03, 2009 - 02:41 PM
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Sims can be cloned fairly easily here with the right tools.
About 300rmb worth of tools/software

Depending what revision sim it is, depends how long it takes to copy. Never ones take longer.

Once you have a cloned sim, you are essentially the same as the other phone for all intents and purposes.

Taobao has several vendors selling these.

Other ways:
Special sms message with software attached.
(Highly phone dependant, software dependant)
Ref: http://www.techworld.com/news/index.cfm?newsID=7425

Listen in on the signal to the cellphone tower.
Its possible to eavesdrop on SMS traffic for the particular GSM Base Transciever Station
This can be done with reprogrammed phones, or specialized hardware.
I'm pretty sure this is the method they were using in Germany to intercept the bank sms's.
Place yourself near the banks transmission tower, and start listening...
Ref: http://www.h-online.com/security/Manipulated-Nokia-phones-intercept-SMS--/news/113126

The weak link in the chain - social engineering..
Pay someone for a list of all the SMS's, probably the easiest non technical method.


If anyone is interested in more details, let me know I can dig something up.
Shangstar - July 03, 2009 - 02:51 PM
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wow, so would these devices work in the west? Just asking of course
compsolutions - July 03, 2009 - 02:53 PM
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Funnily enough this news just came out - http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/07/02/apple_working_to_fix_unreleased_iphone_sms_exploit.html
compsolutions - July 03, 2009 - 02:56 PM
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Which devices?

Also this goes over the basic (in)security:

http://www.nowsms.com/discus/messages/132/260.html

The SMPP protocol does not support any form of encryption. Sessions are completed in plain text over TCP/IP (so if security was a concern, you may need a private line or VPN connection to the operator SMSC ... oddly enough it seems that I see a lot of VPNs used for UCP/EMI connections, but not so much in the SMPP world).

In a GSM modem interface, messages are sent out over the air ... to the operator SMSC ... and then sent back out to the recipient over the air.

Of course, you have the same "over the air" issue on the receiving side however the message is being sent.


If we go back to the SMS hack idea.
Some further talk about that here -
http://www.lexa.ru/security-alerts/msg00776.html


Seems thats probably the way to go, at least for devices of a particular nature / software - eg iPhones. Its similar to Windows - once you have enough of a particular species you can target them.
leidelaohu - July 03, 2009 - 04:59 PM
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compsolutions wrote:
... once you have enough of a particular species you can target them.

One of the drawbacks of a monoculture, eh ?
compsolutions - July 03, 2009 - 05:53 PM
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Exactly.

Some of the common tools / hardware needed is here -
http://www.simmk.net/

Looks like a thriving industry in copying phone cards apparently.
woron_scan and simscan et al still in use.

I took a brief look at the state of things a few weeks ago, although more from a satellite perspective - the firmware for my clone DM800 could do with an updated security sim, so I was looking into it for that perspective.

This is going to be meaningless for most people who aren't interested in this though.
tomahawks - July 04, 2009 - 11:30 AM
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Compsolutions,

Clear as mud, thank you. Now what about for us for non-boffins?
Therealme - July 04, 2009 - 01:11 PM
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My friends confirm it is possible and that any or most SIM cards vendor at the railway station can do it for RMB 500/number for the last month SMS data.
Technology+right tools(money/guanxi,etc) everything is possible.
Interesting from the link given by computersolutions, I learned that one SIM card can have up to 12numbers.
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