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leidelaohu

Board Lord

Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 5741

Status: Offline

Posted: Nov 06, 2009 - 03:46 PM

btb wrote:

To sum up right and left wing principal in america
Govt should spend money on things "I" like or "I" benefit.

The fight is due to right and left like opposite things.

You gottit. Both sides are exactly the same.

Bush and the neocons, however, go one step beyond that. Or maybe two steps. Comparing George Bush to Adolf Hitler is not a big stretch of the imagination.

btb

SuperStar

Joined: Aug 09, 2008
Posts: 1422

Status: Offline

Posted: Nov 06, 2009 - 03:46 PM

Curious_Visitor wrote:

fWerrF wrote:

btb wrote:

... You have shown without a doubt that Obama is turning america into socialism.

you are beyond help.

why not just google "obama socialism", and read. reading is fundamental Laughing

i rather spend my time laying pipes, cuz, u just can't be helped.

It is the exact opposite of what you say. The only kind of socialism going around in America is the corporate kind. Obama is a nicely spoken establishment tool who has continued more or less exactly the policies of the last administration: bailouts for Wallstreet, reinflation of the housing market and endless facilities from the Fed to prop up banks with trillions of $ of toxis assets on their balances sheets. Oh, and the wars. Taxing the ultra rich a little more is perfectly trivial. More work for the accountants. It's a great time to be in the top 1% and pretty **** for everyone else.

_________________
I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.

Marakanis
Fire-eater

Joined: Jan 11, 2009
Posts: 2918

Posted: Nov 06, 2009 - 03:52 PM

Curious_Visitor wrote:

peterber wrote:

As a dual EU-American citizen I watch with sadness how America has moved from having the type of win-win capitalism that everyone tried to emulate to a rob-cheat-steal type capitalism that now mostly rewards idiotic lawsuits and lawyers, greedy healthcare providers that prey on the misfortune of others and greedy bankers who's outrageous bonuses have drained 100's of billions of taxpayer dollars -- and which has caused the global economic mess we are in now. No wonder the "abused" US masses are crying for fairness and equaliy. For ANYTHING better than what they have now, including more "socialism" in the Keynsian sense. I feel for Obama and his efforts of turning this around by creating a more Keynsian model mixed economy but I don't think he's got the "juice" unfortunately. There are too many right wing religious fanatics, gun totin' war mongers and get rich quick wacko's fighting his every move. Very sad. The US has got a very rough road ahead...

Another disturbing trend is as China embraces capitalism many "new-capitalists" seem to try to model their money making efforts after the current US model of destructive capitalism...NOT a good idea. Quality of life is not only about making money - it is about quality education for all, social stability and equality, healthcare for all, quality housing, better communications, etc., etc. All the "best quality of life" surveys that I have seen point towards the Germanic/Nordic nations as best - especially Switzerland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway and Finland.

Some of the principled right wingers actually have a point - they think that America is best run without a gigantic, intrusive, wasteful, warmongering government. The problem with the establishment 'right' is they are quite happy to support big goverment for the military, police, war on drugs, 'national security' surveillance etc etc. but absolutely cannot stand to see a cent spent on education, support for the unemployed, investment in infrastructure etc.

Because it's hard to abuse the poor and take their money if you don't have:
1. Their respect, which requires them to be uneducated so they can't analyze how you made your money.
2. Their fear, which requires them to know you have a huge military that at any moment can be turned against them.
3. Their money, which requires you to keep them in a state where at any moment you can crush their lives (such as through health insurance, taxes, and any other number of disaster situations).

They've done all that by continually having Wars on X (Communists, drugs, terror, doesn't matter). Why people can't see through that is... well it's because they're uneducated and proud of it. "I don't need no edumacation, I can be a plumber and make millions like Joe" (who it turned out is neither a licensed plumber or rich).

I think it all goes back to the early years of the country. When the people in charge really had the best intentions for America and set things in place to try and make it so stupid people couldn't screw things up. The electoral system is a good example of that. The electoral college was meant to be a more informed group of people that could course correct for the stupid public and prevent things like smear campaigns from deciding elections. Is the electoral college still a good idea?

I don't think so. Make every vote count and let the country actually vote the way it wants. Had it been the case, Bush would never have won in the first place. =P

findus

Fire-eater

Joined: Feb 03, 2004
Posts: 2520

Status: Offline

Posted: Nov 06, 2009 - 04:02 PM

fWerrF wrote:

btb wrote:

... Can you give some of things he is doing to turn america into socialism ?

i can go on all day, but i got things to do, so let me give this to you in a short sentence:
"spreading the wealth around" is precisely what obama's policies will seek to do, he said that on national TV time after time.

He campaigns on a pledge to reduce the taxes on 95% of all Americans, only those making more than $250k will be subject to having an increased percentage of their earnings confiscated by the government in the form of increased taxes, to be redistributed to those citizens that he believes merit the fruits of other people's labor.

that does not sound like socialism to you?

You've just out-fWerfF-ed yourself. And I just made a new verb. Please feel free to use.

There have been a number of brain-impaired people around ShEx over the years, but you're starting to take the biscuit. I'm sure you mean well, but your 'insights' are almost entirely fallacious.

_________________

zoolander

Barker

Joined: July 01, 2008
Posts: 175

Status: Offline

Posted: Nov 06, 2009 - 04:23 PM

blah there blah blah there... all of you should just meet up and argue it face to face..it will be a nice show to watch...

Curious_Visitor
Newbie

Joined: Nov 03, 2009
Posts: 7

Posted: Nov 06, 2009 - 05:34 PM

leidelaohu wrote:

Hydro wrote:

leidelahou while i agree with your statement about maseratis above it didnt answer my question concerning the economic concept of "natural" growth of an economy. im not trying to nail you down or anything just genuinely confused as you seem to think that chinese should re-invent building skyscrapers, cars etc. themselves??
if the only point ure trying to make is the absence of innovation in current china i whole-heartedly agree.
that has little to do with "natural growth" though please elaborate on this concept

I guess I'm trying to say that this is still a planned economy, rather than one that grows to fill needs. Oh yeah, it's three or four layers deep now instead of right on top but this is the same society that China had a thousand years ago. Everything is controlled by the Bureaucracy and the Bureacracy doesn't seem to be too good at it.

The biggest difference between now and Mao's time is that we've dumped the idealism and substituted greed and self-interest.

If you've ever lived in a place that had a real economy, you'd have noticed that this place makes no sense at all. Housing prices that are sky-high, renting for nothing. Baozi stands on the street with lines a mile long but you could shoot a cannon down the aisles in most of the flashy malls. 30 story buildings going up all over while brand new empty ones sit right next door. Luxury stores with a thousand sales girls (but none of them know anything about the product) and no customers.

I was just in a factory that makes parts for Chery. They had fourteen million dollars to spend but their manufacturing guys were asking me "why does the motor on this machine overheat ? Why does this shaft break ?" Honestly, twenty years ago in a state-owned factory they wouldn't be asking stupid stuff like that. Not everyone is an idiot but there are way too many people who bought the technology but don't understand it at all.

Look above, you'll see a lot of people just off the boat claiming that day by day in every way things are improving ... but that's not what I see. I see new buildings that look flashy but have toilets that don't flush and people with expensive cars they can't drive, while the society itself has regressed. Seriously regressed. It's like the third generation in a family business - all money, no brains, spoiled rotten. Down the toilet it goes.

Too fast, too easy.

Control by Bureaucracy may be flawed, but can you imagine China WITHOUT Bureaucracy? Think of how rapidly the economy has grown and then imagine the rampant inflation and free for all there'd have been without enforced saving, capital controls etc. You surely don't believe that the so-called 'free market' (aka neoliberalism) is always right?

The same society as a thousand years ago? Was there really the equivalent of a sizeable and growing middle class capable of buying their own home and sipping lattes in Starbucks a thousand years ago? (Equivalent, note).

No one who's spent any time in Shanghai - and no, I'm not a veteran, but I didn't get off the boat yesterday either - can have failed to notice the vast amount of seemingly empty real estate around the place, but is this really a great mystery? Asians have always been obsessed with property - witness the Japanese during the hay day of their boom - and a lot of this stuff is being built for the greater glory of China, to put the city on the map. It's called taking the long view, not something unique to Chinese communism. Look at e.g. the Roppongi Hills complex in Tokyo (incidentally developed by the guy behind the SWFC) - people said it would be a white elephant but occupancy rates have gone up, and it's a tourist magnet. The SWFC was supposed to have 45% occupancy before it even opened, so there is clearly some demand out there.

You exaggerate. We've all seen empty shopping centres, but there are plenty of busy ones too. Again, regardless of the economics, it's a statement, and it seems odd to begrudge the Chinese their glittering monuments to consumerism after decades of 'enjoying' them in the West. It's a shame that you only encounter incompetent Chinese and broken buildings. The ones I work with are eminently capable and the buildings i've worked in have all had running water.

Judging China by its spoilt billionaires is a bit like judging the UK by hedge fund managers in Mayfair and their money-no-object lifestyles. Except they are Western, so no doubt their decadence is more 'sophisticated'. Ultimately, most Chinese seem to think their lot in life is improving, and that's with a massive forced saving rate, pollution, inadequate services and all the other problems here. To expect there to be no corruption, a mature legal system, cultured rich people etc. is utopian.

Tiny_year

Seeker

Joined: Nov 01, 2009
Posts: 61

Status: Offline

Posted: Nov 06, 2009 - 05:47 PM

zoolander wrote:

blah there blah blah there... all of you should just meet up and argue it face to face..it will be a nice show to watch...

Pls let me know the venue and time if you are to have a live debate!

Hydro

Reacher

Joined: July 15, 2009
Posts: 224

Status: Offline

Posted: Nov 06, 2009 - 06:01 PM

let's box instead

Curious_Visitor
Newbie

Joined: Nov 03, 2009
Posts: 7

Posted: Nov 06, 2009 - 08:19 PM

Marakanis wrote:

Of course, had the Supreme Court not acted as a wing of the Republican Party, Bush would never have won even with the EC. I'd agree with a better system of representation but I doubt something like PR would actually make much difference. You still have the pervasive problems of money in politics, lobby groups, the security establishment, etc etc.

A good start would be a President with the guts to end the imperial foreign policy and put Wall Street back in its box.

KalanStar

Reacher

Joined: Oct 06, 2009
Posts: 241
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline

Posted: Nov 06, 2009 - 10:30 PM

I thought this thread had something to do with the Chinese work ethic???

Anyway, I find the Chinese to be as disorganized as Canadians, to be as uninterested in quality as Mexicans, and to be as inefficient as Americans. Laughing

_________________

leidelaohu

Board Lord

Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 5741

Status: Offline

Posted: Nov 06, 2009 - 11:15 PM

Curious_Visitor wrote:

... it seems odd to begrudge the Chinese their glittering monuments to consumerism ...

Nobody is begrudging anything. Or I am not, anyhow.

The problem is that doing it this way leads to a veneer of competence one-eighth inch thick and a ton of internal stresses.

For one thing, they sold their environment right down the river to save ten years' time. It's going to cost a hundred times more than they saved to get the heavy metals out of the water, for instance. Either that or this whole eastern seaboard is going to become one burnt-out poisonous blight. Look up Minamata ... I worked in some plating factories for a while. I'm afraid to touch a fish now.

KalanStar

Reacher

Joined: Oct 06, 2009
Posts: 241
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline

Posted: Nov 07, 2009 - 11:05 AM

leidelaohu wrote:

Curious_Visitor wrote:

... it seems odd to begrudge the Chinese their glittering monuments to consumerism ...

Minimata is a good example of companies essentially killing people for profit. Ever hear of the radium girls? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radium_Girls

Ever hear of the Doc, "The Disappearing Male"? http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/doczone/2008/disappearingmale/ Apparently our whole modern existence is leading to extinction. The modern industrial age and all the products we depend on has sealed our doom.

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fWerrF

Rocker

Joined: Aug 31, 2009
Posts: 695
Location: New York, Hong Kong, Shanghai, Bangkok
Status: Offline

Posted: Nov 07, 2009 - 12:50 PM

Wow this thread exploded! LOL.
Let's all take a break cuz its weekend, we shall eat drink party and lay pipes Razz

I'll be back on Monday full force, this ain't ova yet Laughing

For now let me just say this quickly:
In USA, on the Obama socialism debate, the cheerleaders are the ppl that barely make enough money to pay taxes, they leech off government and taxpayers' money, well, no surprise, they outnumber the ppl who actually pay significant taxes. Thus, I understand if I am in the minority here on this subject Laughing

Anyway, anyone happens to be in Hong Kong and wants to tear LKF apart tonight, PM me, I am entertaining couple of friends from Bangkok, its gonna be a sick time. ciao.

Tiny_year

Seeker

Joined: Nov 01, 2009
Posts: 61

Status: Offline

Posted: Nov 07, 2009 - 10:17 PM

Marakanis wrote:

fWerrF wrote:

who the f0ck is talking about 1845???
we are talking about today's china, PRC, people's republic of china. not qing dynasty. you guys were invaders back then not expats.

if u truly believe what u say, then get the f0ck out of china. i would love to see shanghai become a ghost town.

You are aware that the past affects the present? Did you also forget that you were the one saying that expats have only been here since the 80s?

You're clearly too stupid to put together a coherent string of conversation or thought.

Are you sure you're not Nutalie with a better translator?

Anyways. I'm putting you on ignore, talking to you in any reasonable way is obviously pointless.

Hi Marakanis - from what I read till page 8, I see fWerrF quite a coherent string of thoughts,on the contrary,I don't quite understand your logic.

Just my personal thoughts.

Hydro

Reacher

Joined: July 15, 2009
Posts: 224

Status: Offline

Posted: Nov 07, 2009 - 11:08 PM

haha tiny you're really cute

Tiny_year

Seeker

Joined: Nov 01, 2009
Posts: 61

Status: Offline

Posted: Nov 07, 2009 - 11:41 PM

Hydro - I have to spend 1 hour and ten mins to finish 5 pages!...ehh..snail speed but I learned every word that they say.

Wonderful debate!I like it! Zoolander & FwerrF you both are so cute! without you guys this thread would be tedious and I would not even give a glimpse on it.

well, my perception is,as a local mainlander,China is in so many ways to be criticized but it doesn't matter because criticization is a mirror for China to know its win and loss.but Since China has 1.3b number of people, pls don't judge the whole population by some individual's behavior.It's unfair to me/us who {never spitting/peeing in public}/{washing hands - the first thing to do when reach office in the morning in a crowd,let alone after taking crap}/{never sleeping and QQ & Taobao during working times}, non?

anyways,I like this thread very much, pls keep it up and I'll finish the rest of it tommorrow..

Last edited by Tiny_year on Nov 08, 2009 - 09:36 AM; edited 1 time in total

Marakanis
Fire-eater

Joined: Jan 11, 2009
Posts: 2918

Posted: Nov 08, 2009 - 12:21 AM

Tiny_year wrote:

Hi Marakanis - from what I read till page 8, I see fWerrF quite a coherent string of thoughts,on the contrary,I don't quite understand your logic.

Just my personal thoughts.

Really? Fwerrf's argument is that expats have absolutely no impact on Shanghai and that with the removal all of the restaurants and foods that expats brought here, they would still (somehow) have found their way here.

He then argues that China would have been better off without any foreign influence. Do you really agree with that? Do you really think his arguments were logical? The only thing he presented as evidence was North Korea, which had to import all the things from foreign countries in order to have them (beer and cars). They did not make them on their own because they never learned how... Which is pretty much where China would be without any foreign influence (minus the ability to import them from foreigners since that would be a foreign influence).

That seems logical and coherent to you?

fWerrF

Rocker

Joined: Aug 31, 2009
Posts: 695
Location: New York, Hong Kong, Shanghai, Bangkok
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Posted: Nov 08, 2009 - 01:24 AM

Marakanis wrote:

He then argues that China would have been better off without any foreign influence.

I have never said that.
Please quote my original words that matches the above exactly.

"expats influence" and "foreign influence" are NOT the same thing.

Marakanis wrote:

The only thing he presented as evidence was North Korea, which had to import all the things from foreign countries in order to have them (beer and cars). They did not make them on their own because they never learned how... Which is pretty much where China would be without any foreign influence (minus the ability to import them from foreigners since that would be a foreign influence).

Again, your argument was "expats influence", now you are changing it to "foreign influence".
As you said, if China imported a car, and studied it, made a copy that worked, then China would have a car. YES, that's from foreign influence, but that process does not have to involve a foreigner coming to China (which is definition of expat), therefore no expat influence.

Thus, please do not twist my argument, I have always said expats influence, NOT foreign influence.

jeffinflorida

Board Royalty

Joined: Nov 19, 2007
Posts: 7036
Location: Somewhere between Itchy and Scratchy
Status: Offline

Posted: Nov 08, 2009 - 07:25 AM

^ Without an expats influence Chinese females would never have experienced an orgasm.

End of discussion.

_________________
Wanker- One who masturbates or is full of themself, egotistical.

cidcid

Seeker

Joined: May 14, 2009
Posts: 50

Status: Offline

Posted: Nov 08, 2009 - 07:59 AM

^don't biatch around!

You belong to the PIT! Enjoy your orgasm there, TROLL!

Marakanis
Fire-eater

Joined: Jan 11, 2009
Posts: 2918

Posted: Nov 08, 2009 - 09:12 AM

fWerrF wrote:

Marakanis wrote:

He then argues that China would have been better off without any foreign influence.

I have never said that.
Please quote my original words that matches the above exactly.

"expats influence" and "foreign influence" are NOT the same thing.

You said both, so I argued both cases.

fWerrF wrote:

without expats and foreign influence, there WILL BE foreign cuisines. you are the crazy if u don't think so.

fWerrF wrote:

even if u take away all the foreign influence in china, there will still be demands for louis vuitton, for fine foreign cuisine, for health clubs, for beauty salon and spas, for clubs and lounges,

fWerrF wrote:

In north korea, there is no expat/foreign influence. but there are cars, beer, computer and etc there.

fWerrF wrote:

Marakanis wrote:

I didn't twist your argument and I'm not changing it. Once again, the first argument is if all expats and expat businesses were removed it would turn Shanghai into a festering pit.

Second argument, without foreign influence Shanghai would not be so great and definitely would not have most of the things it has right now.

See above... You stated that without a foreign influence China would have foreign cuisine. Your argument about North Korea also discussed foreign influence, not expat influence, thus you were making the argument that without foreigners China could have what North Korea had, but as we know, North Korea required a foreign influence to get both cars and beers so that is false as well.

Your arguments have been utterly defeated. So...

Shhhhhhh...

Marakanis
Fire-eater

Joined: Jan 11, 2009
Posts: 2918

Posted: Nov 08, 2009 - 09:13 AM

cidcid wrote:

^don't biatch around!

You belong to the PIT! Enjoy your orgasm there, TROLL!

You're probably just jealous because when he has sex with Chinese girls... well you probably don't have sex with anyone so there's no need to continue. =D

Tiny_year

Seeker

Joined: Nov 01, 2009
Posts: 61

Status: Offline

Posted: Nov 08, 2009 - 10:10 AM

Marakanis wrote:

Tiny_year wrote:

Hi Marakanis - from what I read till page 8, I see fWerrF quite a coherent string of thoughts,on the contrary,I don't quite understand your logic.

Just my personal thoughts.

Marakanis - first off I am not a judge here, my points below is just what I perceived from your words and attitudes above.

Fwerrf never stated that expats have absolutely no impact on Shanghai or even China's economy, He agrees that expat contributes to China economy, in a certain degree, but he doesn't agree with your ideas that China or Shanghai would be back into the stone age without foreign influences.

That makes perfect sense to me. doesn't seem logical and coherent to you?

I think 9 out of 10 Chinese would agree that China's development is largely impacted by foreign influences,but the premise is,China is willing to take the initiative to develop its economy.The internal cause(wouldnot elaborate here) plays a decisive role. It sounds to me that China's enconomy have been boosted 100% by foreign impacts from your perspective, and without KFC/Coca Cola etc..China would cease it's developing paces.to be frank,for the past 25 years of my coming to the world,it's less than 3 times that I eat KFC,drinking Coca Cola.But I lived well!

anyways, China's development is a good thing to the world.Would you like the 1.3b population to be feed by elsewhere in the world?So don't dwell too much on the cause.it's like you enjoy eating eggs,but do you really care that much on which hen gives birth to it? =P

Over

Correct me if anything wrong with grammer or words,Good way to improve English here!

Last edited by Tiny_year on Nov 08, 2009 - 10:23 AM; edited 2 times in total

cidcid

Seeker

Joined: May 14, 2009
Posts: 50

Status: Offline

Posted: Nov 08, 2009 - 10:17 AM

Marakanis wrote:

cidcid wrote:

^don't biatch around!

You belong to the PIT! Enjoy your orgasm there, TROLL!

You're probably just jealous because when he has sex with Chinese girls... well you probably don't have sex with anyone so there's no need to continue. =D

Probably? Can you be more precise?

But I know for SURE that you love to roll in the mud! It is not "probably". Be a MAN to say something that you are certain about. Are you a MAN?

Marakanis
Fire-eater

Joined: Jan 11, 2009
Posts: 2918

Posted: Nov 08, 2009 - 10:23 AM

Tiny_year wrote:

Marakanis wrote:

Tiny_year wrote:

Hi Marakanis - from what I read till page 8, I see fWerrF quite a coherent string of thoughts,on the contrary,I don't quite understand your logic.

Just my personal thoughts.

Except for one problem. What you just stated is the opposite of the truth.

Fwerrf wrote:

all the top chinese corps on forbes list are local companies, all the ppl top the hurun report china rich list are self-made, with their local education(if they even had one) and way of thinking.
remember, merely 30 yrs ago, private biz did not exist, and look at where it is at today. u expats had no hand in that.

Tiny_year wrote:

That makes perfect sense to me. doesn't seem logical and coherent to you?

Saying that expats had no hand in Shanghai's business economy as it stands today does not seem logical and the way he has presented his argument it is absolutely devoid of coherency and common sense.

Tiny_year wrote:

I think 9 out of 10 Chinese would agree that China's development is largely impacted by foreign influences,but the premise is,China is willing to take the initiative to develop its economy.The internal cause(wouldnot elaborate here) plays a decisive role. It sounds to me that China's enconomy have been boosted 100% by foreign impacts from your perspective, and without KFC/Coca Cola etc..China would cease it's developing paces.to be frank,for the past 25 years of my coming to the world,it's less than 3 times that I eat KFC,drinking Coca Cola.But I lived well!

Even if you personally never eat KFC or drink coca cola, there are factories and restaurants under the YUM brand name that employee hundreds of thousands of Chinese locals. But if you're trying to say that China would develop a great economy without a foreign influence, I'm sorry to say but you are wrong.

Culturally speaking, the Chinese m.o. is to do whatever the government tells you and never hope for more. What's the old Chinese saying?

"If you're being raped, learn to enjoy it."

From my point of view, if foreigners hadn't come into China and showed citizens that they could achieve more than their assigned station in life, they would still be bending over and taking it from the government instead of trying to make it on their own. That includes development of businesses and whatever else you can think of...

Tiny_year wrote:

anyways, China's development is a good thing to the world.Would you like the 1.3b population to be feed by elsewhere in the world?So don't dwelling too much on the cause.You enjoy eating eggs,Do you really care that much on which hen gives birth to it? =P

What? What are you saying? Is that a reference to the great leap forward where a bunch of starving Chinese turned into cannibals in order to survive? =P

Tiny_year wrote:

Correct me if anything wrong with grammer or words,Good way to improve English here!

Pay me. =p