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helloasia
Talker
Joined: Mar 15, 2008
Posts: 120
Status: Offline
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 Posted:
Aug 23, 2009 - 06:12 AM |
 
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| jamar wrote: |
| I actually made that connection myself due to an odd trend I've seen as a student at SCIS, but anecdotes don't always help parents make informed decisions (especially anecdotes from students that haven't been there since June 2008), so I decided to ask. |
So does that mean you think otherwise about SCIS being a good school to send our kid? (I'm looking into SCIS, SAS & Concordia.) |
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ecbaby818
Lurker
Joined: Aug 12, 2009
Posts: 20
Status: Offline
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Aug 23, 2009 - 02:46 PM |
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| Post subject: Re: International Schools, Bilingual Schools, Local Schools |
[quote="emselst"]
| patriciaychou wrote: |
| Thanks "emselst" for the info and I will look into seeing other posts on Xiehe. |
* Question the high prices at the International Schools, and don't be afraid to ask for tuition reductions/ financial aid/ (discounts!) These schools are making a lot of money, and they are not Harvard (no one is leaving with a degree, that's for sure!!)
Hi, our 2 kids will be attending an int'l school next term, can you advise me when is the best time to ask for fee concession? at the time I summit my application or after I've been offered a place? usually how much off listed price?
thanks, |
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ecbaby818
Lurker
Joined: Aug 12, 2009
Posts: 20
Status: Offline
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| Posted:
Aug 23, 2009 - 02:48 PM |
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| Post subject: Re: International Schools, Bilingual Schools, Local Schools |
[quoteQuestion the high prices at the International Schools, and don't be afraid to ask for tuition reductions/ financial aid/ (discounts!) These schools are making a lot of money, and they are not Harvard (no one is leaving with a degree, that's for sure!!)=quote]
Hi, our 2 kids will be attending an int'l school next term, can you advise me when is the best time to ask for fee concession? at the time I summit my application or after I've been offered a place? usually how much off listed price?
thanks, |
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Phage
Newbie
Joined: Aug 25, 2009
Posts: 2
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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Aug 25, 2009 - 09:10 AM |
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Input from another newbie, although not as a reader of the fora. Our experience of BISS Puxi was also an unhappy one but I should emphasize that this was a very specific experience and that many of our friends find BISS Puxi to be an excellent school for their children.
One of our children needs extra support (combination of mild dysgraphia & gifted). This was being provided at our previous expat location and, following long prediscussions and sharing of assessments with BISS management, was a determining factor when we chose BISS Puxi before landing last August.
The last academic year has been a series of broken committments, missed communications between management and teachers and inaction. We soon became aware that, contrary to the public statements being made in the Shanghai Expat magazines, the learning support department was actually a title being passed around without a dedicated or trained resource. After numerous follow ups we realised that we had been naive in believing what we had been (and were being) told. After three terms they had still not done an individual assessment or put in place any specific support and so we withdrew our children from the school.
We had an exit meeting with the new head where he reviewed our case, apologised for the school's failure and outlined to us exactly what should have been done. He seemed knowledgable and sincere and I wish him well in his challenge, as these things do take time to turn around. However we have effectively lost a year in which our son has not gone forwards as much as he could have done and that is regrettable.
The bottom line is obvious. Getting good learning support in an international school is always a challenge as it is usually focussed in one or two specialist teachers and the transient nature of the teacher and pupil population makes continuity of teaching relationships difficult to maintain. If your children have these needs then make sure that you get specific commitments in terms of actions, timings and resources during your prediscussions with the school of your choice. Meet the specialist support teachers for a discussion of your child's specific needs to (a) confirm that they exist and (b) confirm that they know what they are talking about.
A year is a long time to waste in a child's life. We were lucky that the learning support teacher from our previous posting is a personal friend and gave us a lot of advice and materials to do at home what should have been provided at least partly at school. |
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hautumncloud
LoopKicker
Joined: Nov 04, 2006
Posts: 967
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Aug 25, 2009 - 09:42 AM |
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Phage, thanks for your input. If/when you find an international school who is willing to offer/apply an IEP for your child, do post and share the info. Your experience in BISS is not atypical within the international school community. From my own experience and also extensive research directly with international schools, here is my finding:-
1. No international schools in Shanghai will be willing to provide a full IEP for a student ESPECIALLY a new incoming student.
2. The best some int schools do is to accept students with mild special needs who needs very little support and able to integrate into regular programs. Some would not even process your application and/or see the student when there is any indication of special needs requirement. The others provide whatever little support along the way and hope that the student survive the year without much ordeal.
3. So far, Western International School has good communication with parents who have special needs students. Their school is still small and at the manageable level where some individual attention is available. This however is more so for students in the lower elementary level or younger. Parents are already starting to complain there are too many special needs students there!!
4. Yew Chung is also known for acceptance of special needs student but their support is very limited and unofficial at best eg, no formal IEP.
5. In my opinion, the best resources for special needs students are available in SAS. But if your child is a new student going in and has records of any required special support, chances are they will not even grant you an interview. On the other hand if your child started at kindergarten as a neuro-typical child and then progress from there on in SAS and require special support later on, SAS will provide the extra help needed. And they do have excellent staff for that too.
6. Then there is Special Ed Consultants who is willing to help bridge a special needs child who is able to function in an integrated setting, into regular international school. They do this by advocating on your child's behalf but only subjected to willingness of the school. They do the assessment, recommendation, IEP etc.. Unfortunately the schools with the best resources are not very open to this since they reserve their resources to their current students only.
7. While all this is very difficult for an expat family with special needs child, I understand that international schools here simply do not have the extensive resources available. Many are also afraid that they will be bombarded with all the special needs students rejected by other schools. As international schools, they are very protective of their image of academic best since they are legitimate business first who provides education. Remember, they are not governed by any country laws to provide any type of special support.
I believe St Michael of SISS may have some view point about this too as we discussed this before on this forum. He too have some experince with special needs students.
Best wishes and hope that you will find the school that can provide the help your child is looking for. |
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jamar
Seeker
Joined: Aug 16, 2009
Posts: 53
Status: Offline
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Aug 25, 2009 - 02:55 PM |
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| helloasia wrote: |
| jamar wrote: |
| I actually made that connection myself due to an odd trend I've seen as a student at SCIS, but anecdotes don't always help parents make informed decisions (especially anecdotes from students that haven't been there since June 2008), so I decided to ask. |
So does that mean you think otherwise about SCIS being a good school to send our kid? (I'm looking into SCIS, SAS & Concordia.) |
Well, if you can't get into SAS the Hongqiao campus of SCIS is pretty good academically speaking. The Pudong campus is more athletically oriented (the high school, at least) but I'd only recommend it for elementary and maybe middle school (again, based on my personal experience as a "quiet kid" in the SCIS Pudong high school). Though the trend I was speaking of is that most students who left SCIS Pudong (whether because they wanted to or otherwise) seemed to go to BISS. |
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Phage
Newbie
Joined: Aug 25, 2009
Posts: 2
Location: Shanghai
Status: Offline
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Aug 25, 2009 - 04:35 PM |
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Thanks for the support hautumncloud.
The children will be starting at Dulwich tomorrow as we had a good session with their special needs support teachers before we made the decision to take them out of BISS, and they offered some useful advice and support in terms of further assessment that we have followed over the Summer holiday, and so hopefully they will be ready to deliver from day one.
In terms of being reluctant to take on a child needing extra support we were completely open with Dulwich and both children sat and passed the entrance exam. I don't know whether they made any special allowances for my son but they offered places for both of them. We know that some of our English friends' children sat the entrance exam at about the same time and didn't get through, so presumably this is not a formality even for native speakers as it is at some international schools in other countries.
I will keep you posted of our experience. |
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StMichael
Rocker
Joined: Feb 19, 2005
Posts: 783
Location: Qibao, Shanghai
Status: Offline
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Aug 25, 2009 - 05:19 PM |
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Wow, I see my name being mentioned.
I would also be interested to hear how Dulwich does it. Support for special children is really a very sticky subject in the international school community, due to the amount of resources required relative to the fees paid.
One of my support teacher (who have since returned to his home country) did mention that there may be a market for a special school here. I wonder. |
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Michael Chan www.senseimichael.com |
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mmhm
Talker
Joined: Mar 31, 2008
Posts: 83
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Aug 25, 2009 - 09:48 PM |
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I'd like to think that its more than resources relative to fees paid. Many special ed kids require much more than a support teacher - speech therapy, speech pathologist with APD specialities, occupational therapy, physical therapy, medical support unavailable in Shanghai. To accept a special needs child without the full compliment of these services, and more, is to do an unconscionable disservice to the child as it is robbing the child of a chance of an appropriate education. International schools in many locations are under immense pressure to make unsuitable admissions for the convenience of corporations and parents.
The reason that an influx of special needs kids causes other parents to complain is simply that special needs are very time-consuming for the teacher-more prep, more re-teaching-and the other parents who have paid 20,000 to 30,000 USD realize that their child is not receiving their share of the teacher's attention.
International, especially American ones, seem to be compared to govt supported schools at home. In reality they are independent private schools and are comparable to independent private schools at home. And the average private does not accept special ed kids either. The therapeutic private schools cost much, much more as they specialize in very, very small classes specifically designed for the population. |
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StMichael
Rocker
Joined: Feb 19, 2005
Posts: 783
Location: Qibao, Shanghai
Status: Offline
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Aug 25, 2009 - 10:05 PM |
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Uh..mmhm, in education-talk, teaching specialists are considered resources. I guess I am so used to speaking among fellow administrators that I forget the terms I use may have different meanings to others. My apologies. |
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Michael Chan www.senseimichael.com |
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hautumncloud
LoopKicker
Joined: Nov 04, 2006
Posts: 967
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Aug 25, 2009 - 10:51 PM |
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Providing education for students with special needs warrants for an entire different thread of discussion. That is why it took years and years of advocating before the current public schools in developed countries to have provision for these students. The point is there is such a wide spectrum of specific needs. Some need much more than extra support as mmhm stated but many are able to integrate into regular setting while being taught to compensate for what they cannot do naturally. And each and every need requires special training from the provider.
Anyways, its like opening a huge can of worms for international schools who try to stay away from this topic due to limited resources - financial, training, specialised teachers etc.
I know Special Ed Consultants runs a couple of programs for students who could not function in regular settings but the cost is beyond expensive.
St Miichael, yes there is a market for special school here - more for the profit making I think unless the said future school can form some kind of an alliance with an int school to keep special needs students integrated so that we don't end up institutionalising and/or segregating them. Most special needs students with proper support, excel in regular classroom setting because they have the other neuro-typical peers as models. And the neuro-typical students will learn how to relate to their peers who has special needs. In many ways, int schools in China should be ideal because local Chinese Educational Assistant are cheap but weather they are trainable to our expectation is another issue altogether. Its a much much bigger picture......See.......we do need another thread for this...........lol |
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hautumncloud
LoopKicker
Joined: Nov 04, 2006
Posts: 967
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Aug 26, 2009 - 04:34 AM |
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| jamar wrote: |
Well, if you can't get into SAS the Hongqiao campus of SCIS is pretty good academically speaking. The Pudong campus is more athletically oriented (the high school, at least) but I'd only recommend it for elementary and maybe middle school (again, based on my personal experience as a "quiet kid" in the SCIS Pudong high school). Though the trend I was speaking of is that most students who left SCIS Pudong (whether because they wanted to or otherwise) seemed to go to BISS. |
I am very curious, how long has SCIS Pudong been in operation? From what I was told the school just started this school year a couple weeks ago! How many grades are there and how many students in total?? |
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jamar
Seeker
Joined: Aug 16, 2009
Posts: 53
Status: Offline
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Aug 26, 2009 - 01:26 PM |
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The new campus started last year, actually. However, the old campus (now for elementary students only as they moved middle/high school to the new campus, but before that it held all grades) has been around since... late 1990s? I'm not sure, to be quite honest (but when I entered as a 9th grader in 2004 11th grade was the highest they went; now they have all grades). Also not completely sure how many students there were. In my grade there were 20-something at graduation; lower grades were larger but I don't think more than 400. |
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caramello
Talker
Joined: Apr 17, 2008
Posts: 83
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Aug 27, 2009 - 10:21 AM |
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I think so much of "special needs" education can depend on the teacher. From a parents point of view i have very much found this to be the case. Some of my friends have children in a wide range of schools in Shanghai and have a wide range of "special needs" (which is a term i hate!) and we've been discussing this since I read about it on this thread. A sympathetic teacher makes a HUGE difference and it does seem that this is the key factor in a childs life and happiness within the school. Some teachers just don't seem to want to be bothered with these children at all and that seems to be almost independent of the school they are in and just to do with that individual which i think is a real shame. On the other hand a friendly, well trained who is at least open minded can make a huge difference.
I do agree that children who have more severe needs will take up a great deal of time and might be best served in a specialist environment. However one of my friends at a school I won't name reported that her childs teacher suggested that "dyslexia was all in the childs mind and is not a real condition and isn't recognised in the states" ! Of course this isn't the case and to be fair the schools administration backed up the parent (my friend) but to see this attitiude still being spread around seems amazing. |
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goingtoSH
Newbie
Joined: Aug 28, 2009
Posts: 7
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Aug 28, 2009 - 08:14 AM |
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HI folks, I am new to the forum and am reading this thread naturally due to the fact that we are moving to SH soon. Looking for a school for my 5year old. Can anyone shed some light about the Shanghai United International School? The last I read about them was in 2006.
They appear to have several campuses. Anyone has kids there? Is there any difference in 'quality' at each campus? Thank you! |
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tnmom18
Newbie
Joined: Aug 28, 2009
Posts: 2
Status: Offline
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Aug 28, 2009 - 05:22 PM |
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Any comments about Rainbow Bridge International in general? |
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remmocr
Newbie
Joined: Aug 28, 2009
Posts: 3
Status: Offline
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Aug 28, 2009 - 07:04 PM |
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What sort of pay should a teacher request? Should you try low-bidding to get the gig or does that make you look cheap?
Also, I'm curious if any of the parents here would mind sharing info about their salary (ballpark) and what they do? Some of you have 3 kids in Intl. School (WOW $$$$). What do you make and what do you do? Thanks much!
Don't mean to be nosey, but everything is so hush-hush on salary. None of the jobs of any kind list salaries in Shanghai and teacher applications ask you to specify your desired salary. |
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StMichael
Rocker
Joined: Feb 19, 2005
Posts: 783
Location: Qibao, Shanghai
Status: Offline
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Aug 29, 2009 - 09:33 AM |
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Those who have 3 kids in international schools are likely to have a lush expatriate package paid for by the company, and are likely to be in executive positions (VP or above).
If you are low-bidding to get the gig, you will find yourself unhappy. Ask yourself what kind of pay you want, and are willing to accept, and believe you can ask for, for your qualifications and experience.
A teacher without B Ed can teach in a language school here for about RMB10k-12k minimum. One with a B Ed can demand more from the international schools here, which tend to peg the amount to the private schools back home, if not more. |
_________________
Michael Chan www.senseimichael.com |
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remmocr
Newbie
Joined: Aug 28, 2009
Posts: 3
Status: Offline
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Aug 29, 2009 - 12:13 PM |
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Thanks.
I am certified and teaching presently in the states (not language btw). And the application says "Gross expected salary" to which I am thinking "negotiable" as that depends on if they are providing housing, Internet, utilities, Chinese lessons for me, or discount tuition for a child, etc.). But "negotiable" might land my app in the trash if they think I'm trying to be a "wise guy". "Expected Salary" seems like a loaded question for someone trying to break into the scene.
I really want to teach internationally so I am happy with less than I make in the states. I think of the experience as more grad school in a way and it will look good on the resume whether I continue overseas or return home.
It seems so strange to me that none of the schools or any of the jobs (even outside of teaching) list salaries.
I don't know what the food or transpo will cost, but additionally I want to be able to get away and around to see China a bit on any breaks I have. I'll need to pay tuition for a course or two online, buy some class supplies for my students and maybe some Chinese lessons for me, etc.
I believe I read you have two home-schooled children and a wife to support on your teacher's salary. Maybe Shanghai is not as expensive as I imagine or you live very low profile or don't really have that much expense outside of what the school provides. I don't know. And I'm not trying to pry into anyone's personal business. If housing is provided and all, then I don't really need that much to live on and do a good job, right? |
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StMichael
Rocker
Joined: Feb 19, 2005
Posts: 783
Location: Qibao, Shanghai
Status: Offline
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Aug 29, 2009 - 01:19 PM |
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You must realise that I am actually an administrator, so my salary is likely to be higher than a teacher's. 
You must also realise that I am ethnic Chinese (my grandfather hails from China), and speaks and read Chinese, so I do not get "foreigner price" a lot (yes, for some reason foreigners get a higher price). The Chinese are very smart - they could still tell that I am a foreigner after talking to me a while (some claim they could tell *without* even talking to me!).
Not only that, but I have no cravings for western food, Singaporean food, etc, and have no qualms popping into a mom-and-pop store for an RMB10 (about USD1.50) bowl of noodles.
If you do not need to live "western" but can live local, trust me, you can save a lot even on a language teacher's pay of about RMB12k (assuming no family, of course). It is quite impossible for an international school to pay less than RMB20k. They cannot attract any qualified teachers with any lower pay. |
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Michael Chan www.senseimichael.com |
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remmocr
Newbie
Joined: Aug 28, 2009
Posts: 3
Status: Offline
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Aug 29, 2009 - 01:51 PM |
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That makes sense. I've heard about American vs Chinese price for transportation.
I can grind it out and eat noodles, but I probably want to join a gym, and be out and about seeing as much as I can which probably means spending some money. No biggie, I'll figure it out.
Anyway, I'm not going there to save money. I want to expand my teaching experience, pad the resume, pick up some contacts and do a good job. However, I want to get "IB" and "AP" certified and hit a week long conference on something relative to what I teach next summer. In the states, your school pays for it. If I teach overseas and return for the summer, I'll have to pay for it. That could easily top $15,000.
Just curious, why not put your kids in a state/Chinese school? Then your wife could just home school for any gaps or extras you want to add such as English. That way they get the structure and socialization they'll need for future schooling, and they get the individualized attention at home too. Would the state really hit you for $5K a piece? I read somewhere else that the fee was actually reasonable. |
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StMichael
Rocker
Joined: Feb 19, 2005
Posts: 783
Location: Qibao, Shanghai
Status: Offline
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Aug 29, 2009 - 01:58 PM |
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My children is not in a state school for the same reason why they are not in my school - both are very academically rigorous systems, with TONS of homework (the Chinese ones even more!). There is no way my children can practise on the piano 2 hours a day, do taekwondo 2 times a week and go for swimming lessons if they were to attend a state school.
My children have pretty strong musical talents, and I believe it'd be good for them to pursue that line. School will not allow them to give that much time to other aspects of growing up.
My children are part of a homeschool group, and they socialise with their tkd classmates and Sunday School as well, so they do not lose out on that. |
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Michael Chan www.senseimichael.com |
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ship
Reacher
Joined: Sep 08, 2005
Posts: 318
Status: Offline
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Aug 29, 2009 - 02:34 PM |
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msittig
LoopKicker
Joined: Oct 06, 2004
Posts: 826
Location: Zhangjiang High-Tech Park
Status: Offline
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Aug 29, 2009 - 04:13 PM |
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LadyofLeisure
Reacher
Joined: Aug 03, 2009
Posts: 272
Location: Pudong
Status: Offline
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Aug 29, 2009 - 05:18 PM |
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| remmocr wrote: |
What sort of pay should a teacher request? Should you try low-bidding to get the gig or does that make you look cheap?
Also, I'm curious if any of the parents here would mind sharing info about their salary (ballpark) and what they do? Some of you have 3 kids in Intl. School (WOW $$$$). What do you make and what do you do? Thanks much!
Don't mean to be nosey, but everything is so hush-hush on salary. None of the jobs of any kind list salaries in Shanghai and teacher applications ask you to specify your desired salary. |
Remmocr,
Most International Schools send their Admin team to Job Fairs around Asia or the US sometime in the year before they hire the teachers. These teachers then come on a "package" to work at the International Schools. If you are a qualified teacher and are interested in this, then you would need to find out where the job fairs are taking place and see if you qualify to interview with schools all over world It's a fun experience and a great lifestyle for the teachers.
Good luck! |
_________________
If bored visit the website: www.peopleofwalmart.com good for a laugh! |
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