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filawsofize
Newbie
Joined: Nov 16, 2007
Posts: 4
Status: Offline
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 Posted:
Nov 16, 2007 - 07:25 AM |
 
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| Post subject: Advice? Suggestions? |
Hello,
I am a State Prosecutor in Arizona, but have a great desire to move to Shanghai. I am married and have two kids, ages 5 and 7. We speak no Chinese, but intend to learn.
My undergraduate degree is Poli Sci with a minor in business. My law degree has a soft IP emphasis, but my experience is in criminal prosecution.
I know I can teach English and am TEOSL certified, but I just finished browsing the real estate prices in Shanghai... ouch.
Most of the business opportunities seem to cater to Engineers and IT professionals.
Any ideas or suggestions on where someone with my background should apply for work? Any target wage expectations?
ANY advice would be greatly appreciated, beyond the scope of this post...
Thank you. |
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sanjj
Reacher
Joined: Nov 01, 2007
Posts: 291
Location: Vancouver/Shanghai
Status: Offline
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Nov 16, 2007 - 07:42 AM |
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Please come and prosecute those who sell pirated DVDs, spit everywhere, jump queues, and jack up real estate prices.
Kidding aside, how about a lawyer for MNCs in Shanghai? Starting around $100,000? I am not too familiar with salaries in Sh though. |
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Michael
Moderator
Joined: Mar 22, 2002
Posts: 6100
Status: Offline
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Nov 16, 2007 - 09:29 AM |
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Of course, the best way to get hired by a company and sent over. If you want to make go of it before you get a job, come over and check things out.. perhaps setup an apt and a job before you move your family.
You cannot officially practice law here but you can be a legal adviser of sorts. You should get some input from someone who actually IS a lawyer here and a foreigner. I doubt that you would be able to practice criminal law without jumping through ALOT of hoops, not the smallest of which is dealing with all the legal docs in chinese.
Consulting companies use foreign lawyers upon occasion.
The other option, if you have some capital, is to figure out a good idea and start your own business here. |
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sinned69
Veejay
Joined: Sep 01, 2004
Posts: 1814
Location: China, Middle East, Asia Pacific
Status: Offline
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Nov 16, 2007 - 10:51 AM |
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better to find the details of a few international law firms with offices here, contact them about any possible openings (consulting), though i see your big disadvantage is a lack of language, cultural understanding etc. not something that is easily taught nor picked up with out doing all the hard yards here. that being said there is always the potential to reinvent yourself here, but many try and fail and few succeed. IMHO.
as for teaching, well seems as though there are few real teachers with talent and ability in China, especially Shanghai, since many foreigners can get an oral English teaching position as long as they have the "look" (fair complexion), even if they themselves aren't from an English speaking country, consequently there's a range of attitudes and abilities and the salary/pay is not anywhere near realistic. still many do it as a way to fund their stay here, and get their "foot in the door"
Not to say there aren't some talented ESOL teachers here...
Starting a business is fraught with potential pitfalls. The biggest is that the PRC CCCP will welcome investors with open arms, help you sink your money here, but then make it damn difficult to take money out. it can be done, but its a hassle. many companies come, and fail here, not to mention the situation concerning IP rights. look at BG from Microsoft, he's sunk billions of capital here, without seeing a return, but he's still trying -eyeing the potential domestic market... when the reality is that only roughly 15-20% of the population have more than US$1/day to live on.
don't mean to burst your bubble of enthusiasm at all, but this is not a candy coated society, though it looks like it at times on arrival in places like Shanghai. There are huge pitfalls and problems woven nicely into the culture and society, festering away... |
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qing nin shao deng |
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me_myself_&_i
Reacher
Joined: Oct 15, 2007
Posts: 244
Status: Offline
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Nov 16, 2007 - 10:59 AM |
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sorry to say that but reading you post as followed:\
(I know I can teach English and am TEOSL certified, but I just finished browsing the real estate prices in Shanghai... ouch. )
what the hell on earth a state prosecutor in arizona married with children hahahahah would want to come in shanghai to teach english in a school wich probably would not give him more than 15/20.000rmb a month???? i can not get it may be i am retarded or i missed something.
as for real estate in shanghai it goes both ways very cheap or very expensive just make your choice.
i do not want to criticize your move but unless you have a very good reason to get out of the states it is tricky.
if your wife had a job offer in shanghai and you are contemplating leting your job go to follow her yes i would say good move good thinking but if it is just like that may be you want to make sure you have somehting lined up before you come here with 2 kids going to school it will cost you a fortune even in china
good luck anyway and think it over |
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sinned69
Veejay
Joined: Sep 01, 2004
Posts: 1814
Location: China, Middle East, Asia Pacific
Status: Offline
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Nov 16, 2007 - 11:10 AM |
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addit... oral Englsih teachers make anywhere from rmb3k-10k/mth, some are lucky to find some places paying more... like rmb12k-15k... but they are far and few between...
try and find your job here, while you are still state side, that way you get the full expat package, otherwise you will get far less, and life here with two children and a wife with all their expectations, is going to make life... well "colourful" 
life here is not as you find it in US of A. all of you will be stressed out no end even with a full expat package, so imagine how its going to be without a job.
try a holiday sure, but remember holiday mode isn't quite the same as having to experience life as a resident... understanding Chinese takes years and years, and thats just the language... |
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qing nin shao deng
Last edited by sinned69 on Nov 16, 2007 - 12:20 PM; edited 1 time in total |
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fortune_nookie
Reacher
Joined: Apr 07, 2003
Posts: 341
Status: Offline
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Nov 16, 2007 - 11:14 AM |
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My guess is that State proscuters probably make as much as an English teacher. With that aside, you have got to be kidding right. You are going to uproot a 5 & 7 year old and move to China to practice criminal law. This is a troll right, assuming it isn't or if it is I'll bite.
I would strongly suggest to come here first with the family for a holiday; after that if necessary nah, never mind it won't be necessary. |
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austfella
Talker
Joined: Jan 30, 2007
Posts: 79
Status: Offline
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Nov 16, 2007 - 11:40 AM |
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There is a shortage of corporate lawyers with foreign qualifications in SH. However, you need Chinese skills to work here. It would be impossible for a foreigner to practise criminal law in China. |
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kappakai
Raver
Joined: Apr 04, 2005
Posts: 417
Status: Offline
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Nov 16, 2007 - 12:22 PM |
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maybe selphnir can hire him on to kick out those dastardly french. |
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sinned69
Veejay
Joined: Sep 01, 2004
Posts: 1814
Location: China, Middle East, Asia Pacific
Status: Offline
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Nov 16, 2007 - 01:09 PM |
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edidasa
Lurker
Joined: Nov 11, 2007
Posts: 31
Location: Shanghai, China
Status: Offline
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Nov 16, 2007 - 01:43 PM |
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i agree that you should come here for a holiday first...
it's not just a job change... food, life, language, culture, friends, family .... the list goes on... |
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filawsofize
Newbie
Joined: Nov 16, 2007
Posts: 4
Status: Offline
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Nov 17, 2007 - 04:01 AM |
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| Post subject: thanks |
A lot of good advice and suggestion given. I appreciate it.
I have no intention of practicing criminal law in Shanghai. In fact, I have no intention of practicing law at all...
With that said, my family and I are ready for the challenge. I want my two kids to be fluent in Chinese.
Before law school I thought about doing this. For some reason I didn't. So now I am coming full circle. Now my wife and kids will get the benefit of the adventure.
I am happy to hear the good and bad. Thanks for your honesty.
What are you guys doing there? Do you have families? What inspired your move/change? |
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me_myself_&_i
Reacher
Joined: Oct 15, 2007
Posts: 244
Status: Offline
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Nov 17, 2007 - 08:15 AM |
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i am copying your last post then i will try to give you some thoughts my personal thought not others so do not think every one would say the same things:
I have no intention of practicing criminal law in Shanghai. In fact, I have no intention of practicing law at all...
(in this case what do you have in mind of doing and what will you live on? as someone else mentionned to you already if you want to teach english the salary would be from what was posted around 10.000rmb a month do you think you could live on that a month? with 2 kids going to school and a wife .......... may be she could also work did you think about visas and work visas? just talking about work?)
With that said, my family and I are ready for the challenge. I want my two kids to be fluent in Chinese.
(ready you say? kids fluent in chinese? this is good idea the thing is where will they go school? when they arrive they will have to go to english school to start witch mean probably a lot of money for 2 kids if you have a lot of money in the state i guess will not be a problem if not you really need a good paying job how ready are you? why do not you just take the familly here for a while before you decide for sure because when it is done it is done hard to go back)
Before law school I thought about doing this. For some reason I didn't. So now I am coming full circle. Now my wife and kids will get the benefit of the adventure.
(yes may be before law school you were probably single and no kids? lot easier and you were younger too. now it is another story, would not you say? yes they will get the benefits from the adventure, and also all the problems that comes with it. did you guys thought about it long enought?)
I am happy to hear the good and bad. Thanks for your honesty.
(people are trying to help as much as they can usually)
What are you guys doing there? Do you have families? What inspired your move/change?
(lots of us have famillies married or not with kids or without kids most of us came in china with a job already from our countries lot of us also changed during the time we are here. but when we start to be used to china it is easier to make a move to another job or city. some of us came here for either a woman or a man i came back here to marry my chinese girlfriend. others did the same some just came for a job and stayed for the same reason. other can also give you their own stories. what is really inspiring you to make the move from a stable life in america to china?)
i do not want to sounds too negative but the way you write your post especially the last one i think, it sounds like you need to make the move out of the state for some reason?
anyway this is your priority
and another thing may be i am wrong so do not take that from sure. do not listen to people in the states (unless they lived here for a while) telling you that china is like this or like that and you do this and that, because china is too big and everything change with every provinces and towns basicly. and shanghai is not really representative of china. it is a mega businees town with so many foreigners from western countries that you do not really feel like you are in china. for me anyway. i am sure other posters might say different. it would be interresting to know what they think about it. you should come check it out before taking your decision
good luck anyway may be we see you around one day in shanghai |
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filawsofize
Newbie
Joined: Nov 16, 2007
Posts: 4
Status: Offline
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Nov 17, 2007 - 10:12 AM |
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| Post subject: thanks again |
Honestly, my life as it exists now is too predictable and easy. That sounds stupid, I'm sure. I don't like the fact that I can say, with a fair degree of certainty, what my life will be in 10 or 20 years.
I moved back to the small town I grew up in. I took a "safe" course, getting my professional degree and a "safe" and "secure" job. My family has a good name here and I am good at what I do, so my prospects are very predictable - that I will make $80-140k doing the same thing every day of my life while feeling semi-important in the small town I grew up in. (I'm just trying to be as honest, not arrogant)
Without the pressure to have "security" or the be "responsible" I would have done something more adventuresome - like trek to China and learn Chinese. My initial plan was to degree in International Business, but it seemed to "feast or famine" - if that makes any sense.
So, I wake up one day in a box. I notice my kids in the box. I notice my wife in the box. We have a chat and I say "we should have gone to China." And she says, "We'll, let's go." And my jaw drops as I say, "okay."
I got TEOSL/TESL certified and we got our passports, and now I'm posting in a Shanghai forum as I send out resumes... and chat with people for advice about China.
Funny how the world spins and twirls... A little passion is creeping back into my existence. I love it. |
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DesertSpider
Post Boaster
Joined: Jan 19, 2007
Posts: 4725
Location: SHANGHAI, CHINA
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Nov 17, 2007 - 10:51 AM |
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Although I'm extremely anti-establishment and usually don't 'consort' with the other team, I will say this.... you should consider getting a legal consulting position w/ an MNC. Law firms here are a joke, except the ones that are 'connected' here.
Teaching English obviously would be a 'step down' from your current level, but to each their own. IMO, if I were in your shoes I'd probably look into legal adviser type positions - possibly with or through the consulates here.
There's lots of options, just depends on your short and long term 'goals'. |
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me_myself_&_i
Reacher
Joined: Oct 15, 2007
Posts: 244
Status: Offline
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Nov 17, 2007 - 11:09 AM |
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for the op:
if you are interrsted in a position in a law firm i have a friend of mine anglish who is a lawyer with a company in pudong i could find his card back and send you a pm if you want to look at it? |
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L.M.
Reacher
Joined: June 05, 2007
Posts: 266
Status: Offline
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Nov 17, 2007 - 11:30 AM |
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me_myself_&_i, did you read the OPs posts at all??? He said that he has "no intention of practicing criminal law in Shanghai. In fact, I have no intention of practicing law at all... ". |
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me_myself_&_i
Reacher
Joined: Oct 15, 2007
Posts: 244
Status: Offline
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Nov 17, 2007 - 01:11 PM |
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i am not suggestion he would practise law in shanghai where did you get that from? just because i tell him i could introduce him to a lawyer because this is his original job or assimilate?
let say one day i get in contact with some english teachers does that mean i want to become one? non or a big company maneger? will i take his job? no so where is the problem here?
am just telling him that may be he could get in touch with a lawyer friend of mine to have a chat about what he could do since they have the same background.
anyway just trying to be nice |
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mod5
Moderator
Joined: Oct 22, 2007
Posts: 178
Location: Behind the Wall
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Nov 17, 2007 - 02:59 PM |
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Consult to large MNC for patents and IP... |
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Pain: It |
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gw4khq
Reacher
Joined: Nov 13, 2006
Posts: 325
Location: Lujiazui
Status: Offline
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Nov 17, 2007 - 03:38 PM |
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Take a 2 week vacation with wife and kids.
I came here because my wife did (I'm retired), but I love shanghai. All of you need to feel the same before you come.
China is going places and I think it may be of great benefit to your kids to be part of it. Seems to me US has only one way to go. |
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alphabet
Talker
Joined: Apr 17, 2005
Posts: 83
Status: Offline
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Nov 17, 2007 - 05:26 PM |
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I think you should heed the advise of getting out here on a holiday to take a look around. It is one thing to be sent out here by your company - in such situations, they are likely to provide a lot of perks and also provide assistance in helping you and your family acclimatise. I know people who don't like it here even though they have packages that allow them to live in western compounds - they just can't wait to get out. If you come here on your own, you are severing your ties with your current employer and there is no guaranteed job to which to go back home. Given the break you will be making, it seems to me a good idea to come and see/feel the place first hand. You, and even your wife, may be up for the adventure, but your children are old enough to have already made friends at home. It will be testing for them to come here and have to learn a new language just to talk to their playmates. This is a whole different culture.
Just my two cents worth. |
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What goes around, comes around. |
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swisscook
Raver
Joined: Aug 27, 2007
Posts: 438
Status: Offline
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Nov 17, 2007 - 07:03 PM |
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Working in Hospitality and having been in a few places so far I've seen my fair share of people who wanted to come abroad for many reasons. Leaving your home country is never easy - no matter where you go ( for me it was canada at age 21). So many things to consider... Do you have some savings ? Health Insurance ( getting sick is very expensive here ) ? Where do the kids go to school ? ( English schools are a tad expensive ) What will you're wife do ? Moving is always easy for the guy who works - but if you're gone or she is gone 8hrs + a day ( if you have a nice job ) what will the other one do ? Exploring Shanghai is not always easy & cheap and can be a bit frustrating every once in a while. Don't get me wrong, I am all about adventure ( I moved to Canada at age 21 without being able to speak any english and figured Chef's are wanted anywhere ) but I think at your stage you need to be somewhat organized. What if it does not work out ? Do you have enough resources to get you all back safe & sound and start all over in the states ? This is always my Nr 1 advise. When you move make sure you have enough $$$ on the side to get back in one piece where you came from. Just in case. And never mind all the unexpected costs you face while moving. I hope it all works out for you and you can fulfill your dream. But I would strongly recommand to look for a job from stateside and be patient. If you looking for a change - did you consider moving within the US ? Maybe to the Coast ? You can also learn Chinese in San Francisco or Vancouver / Canada  ? Good luck to you anyway |
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Michael
Moderator
Joined: Mar 22, 2002
Posts: 6100
Status: Offline
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Nov 17, 2007 - 10:24 PM |
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Its an interesting dilemma. There have been times in my life where I decided to make a radical change for experience of it. I have no regrets. Of course, I had the luxury of being single without kids.. so I pretty could sink or swim and would not desperately impact close family.
It is good the folks here are helping you think it through. Guaranteed, it won't be easy, but if you handle it right, it could be very rewarding for you.
Practically, it is good to come with some savings if you don't have a job. You can live a lot cheaper here if you have to than in most places in the US - though it will be in an apartment, using public transport, making a fraction of what you make back there ( and costing a fraction ). If you don't have an insurance package, you would probably use local health care. which is very cheap.. but also very different. If you decide to move, I would recommend that you travel light.. here is what we did with our house full of accumulated stuff. 20% garage sale.. 20% dump... 20% goodwill...20% store or give to friends and family.. 20% move.
International schools are very expensive if you are not on a corp package. Local schools are cheap but taught in chinese/ A few local schools have programs for foreign kids, and those are only half taught in chinese. There are a few home schooling groups that are active here also.
Browse the job section of this site and get some ideas. Teaching english is an option, but not one you want to hang out in unless you love teaching. You can make ends meet at one of the better, higher paying private schools who teach english to overworked secretaries or spoiled brats.
Your minor in business might come into play. The overwhelming area of activity here for foreigners is manufacturing and trade. This is where the huge cash flows are, but if takes time to figure how things work and build up your connections. I hear over and over again how desperate everyone is for good project managers.. but for 99% of those jobs, you need good chinese language skills. |
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L.M.
Reacher
Joined: June 05, 2007
Posts: 266
Status: Offline
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Nov 18, 2007 - 03:04 AM |
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| me_myself_&_i wrote: |
| i am not suggestion he would practise law in shanghai where did you get that from? |
Where did I get that from? Have a look at your post:
"for the op:
if you are interrsted in a position in a law firm i have a friend of mine anglish who is a lawyer with a company in pudong i could find his card back and send you a pm if you want to look at it?"
In this post you are "suggesting" that he practice law even though it was quite clear when the OP said "I have no intention of practicing criminal law in Shanghai or practicing law at all". |
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me_myself_&_i
Reacher
Joined: Oct 15, 2007
Posts: 244
Status: Offline
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Nov 18, 2007 - 07:18 AM |
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i think you are nuts
working in a law firm does not mean practising law ok? get your stuff right boy
he could be filing files/doing some research/doing some investigations etc etc in a law firm for a while untill he get something new outside his environement but still not practising law ok with you? in any jobs or professions there is a lot more than just what people see on top of the iceberg. the hiden part is way bigger than what you can see above
working in a law firm you could also be the cleaning lady ok?
or working in a restaurant does not mean you will be the chef or the manager you could be the guy in the storage or the one making coffees or else ok or just answering the phones. stop complaining.
what the hell ?
get a little bit of imagination about this.
the guy want to make a 180 degree turn on his life. if he want to have any chance of success, coming to a country and a town he does not know, it could be a good start to beguing with something, or an environement he is familliar with in his home country,
even if he does not practise law. just be in the environement to give him a better feeling than just be dropped in a no mans land, with no knowledge about anything, and not speaking any of the local language.
i have no idea why you get on this case for no reasons, when someone is just trying to help others and obviously you have other means to do it |
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