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Rio
Post Boaster

Joined: Dec 04, 2004
Posts: 4724

Posted: June 01, 2005 - 01:53 AM
Post subject: Average salary

Of:

- Fresh graduate from overseas (which I am)
- Expat with lets say local 5-10 yr experience
- Expat with lets say 5-10 yr overseas experience

I know, many topics have been opened to discuss salary issues. But I havent found one suitable to post my questions.

I've been searching for it on the net, but can't find it. I know the average salary for fresh graduates in Holland, so those who have an MSc in Business like me (at least, in August). Thats on average 30k Euro. Thats 300.000 RMB.

The job negotiations which I'm going to have next week can only break down on the issue of salary. I'm thinking of asking 1/3 benefit and 2/3 salary, to increase my net salary but my gross salary will stay on normal level. Just need some advice on strategy to follow. Don't think I will get that 30k Euro though.

I know it depends on the company, industry, etc. But an indication could be given right? Average numbers or specific advice would be great.

pickle005

Barker

Joined: Dec 23, 2004
Posts: 158

Status: Offline

Posted: June 01, 2005 - 05:24 AM

Rio, fresh grads aren't in the best negotiating position I'm afraid. Foreign work experience is far more valuable. Just to throw a # out there. I think you'd be lucky to get 10k rmb a month.

Foreign pay scale in China is definitely an exception rather than the norm. Your best bet is to get hired in Europe/North America for a Far East position, rather than come here directly and trying to find a job. Good luck.

Rio
Post Boaster

Joined: Dec 04, 2004
Posts: 4724

Posted: June 01, 2005 - 06:49 AM

Cheers pickle.

Its not a local MNC. It's actually quite a small company, with two subsidiaries. I am a fresh graduate, but I do have foreign work experience and local work experience as well. Anyway, you're estimatation is about 10k per month. Thats not much. The minimum for me would be 17-20k. 15k is also acceptable but the benefits part should be really good.

Its good to hear different opinions on this subject. Cheers again.

Anniboodk

Fire-eater

Joined: Feb 27, 2004
Posts: 2787
Location: Copenhagen
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Posted: June 01, 2005 - 08:21 AM

Rio, the question is will you be hired in Holland and then sent overseas? Or will you be hired by the MNC directly from China? If it is the first case then I think your salary expectations might be as you expect (15K-20K RMB/ month), but I'm afraid I have to agree with pickle, for a newly graduate who is hired locally, 10K would sound about right.

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Rio
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Joined: Dec 04, 2004
Posts: 4724

Posted: June 01, 2005 - 06:34 PM

So you're the second one who says 10k, ok. If there are more who can confirm this, then I know where I stand. It's the second option by the way Anniboo. Thanks for your reply as well.

frenchlover1999
Shanghai Royalty

Joined: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 8729

Posted: June 01, 2005 - 08:17 PM

Why would this company want to recruit a fresh foreign graduate, who is going to cost much more than a local while probably be able to do less, at least due to language limitations. Do you have any special skills or special value to this company? I think you are already very lucky to have found an opportunity and reach negociation stage. 10-15k would probably be good (ie 100%-70% more what a young Chinese who graduated overseas would be likely to get for a first job) probably including benefits (if in cash, ie if the company already rent an expensive apartment, they might let you stay there in which case benefits could be worth more).

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frenchlover1999
Shanghai Royalty

Joined: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 8729

Posted: June 01, 2005 - 08:32 PM

Quote:

1- Expat with lets say local 5-10 yr experience
2- Expat with lets say 5-10 yr overseas experience

As for this, it all depends on whether the guy is working on local contracts (some people just get stuck with those and their value never go very high, typically below what they would get back home in similar positions) or expat contracts (in which case they might be paid what their boss' boss would get back home). Having said that, I dont think there is any difference between 1 and 2. Some jobs/companies prefere someone with China experience, some other dont care (typically MNCs that anyway move people internally). For your typical expat on the higher end of the 5-10 years experience range, in a good managerial position (GM of local business unit, big sales director, senior expert etc) I would say 100-130k USD/year all inclusive. Some "smaller" expats may get 60-80k-something.

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That was no shark. That was my personal submarine. But enough of this polite conversation. What is the purpose of your visit?

frenchlover1999
Shanghai Royalty

Joined: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 8729

Posted: June 01, 2005 - 08:35 PM

My turn to ask a question: European salaries seem to be much higher than when I left 10 years ago. You are talking about 30k Euro/year for a fresh graduate? 23 year old or so? Sounds real good!

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That was no shark. That was my personal submarine. But enough of this polite conversation. What is the purpose of your visit?

Rio
Post Boaster

Joined: Dec 04, 2004
Posts: 4724

Posted: June 02, 2005 - 01:43 AM

frenchlover1999 wrote:

True, I hear this a lot and it's the truth.

Do I have any special skills compared to locals? Can this foreign monkey do more tricks than a local one? I think so but it depends on the job specification though. They are really interested in hiring me. I don't want to tell it here though, what I can do and what I can't do. It would sound a bit I dont know.

Let me just add this. They want to invest in me and expect me to be of added value not for just 6 months, but for a longer period. I don't know what their plans are exactly, but I know that the director of the company wants me to fill in a higher position in the near future. I am willing to stay longer before heading back to Europe.

Last edited by Rio on June 02, 2005 - 01:47 AM; edited 1 time in total

Rio
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Joined: Dec 04, 2004
Posts: 4724

Posted: June 02, 2005 - 01:45 AM

frenchlover1999 wrote:

My turn to ask a question: European salaries seem to be much higher than when I left 10 years ago. You are talking about 30k Euro/year for a fresh graduate? 23 year old or so? Sounds real good!

No, European salaries are lower. It's now more based on fixed and variable components. The fixed part is lower and you can earn more by performing better. And yes, 30k Euro per year for a fresh graduate at that age.

If I can get that here in China, I'd be pleased.

PKMAN

Barker

Joined: Jan 21, 2004
Posts: 137

Status: Offline

Posted: June 02, 2005 - 05:18 PM

Rio - after reading everything, I'm still confused as to the basics of your question. Will you be hired as an "expat" or will you be hired as a local remployee (albeit a foreigner local employee)?

By definition, an expat is someone who is assigned to work in a foreign country by his employer in the home country. With this assignment his employer will guarantee salary based on the home country standard and may add hardship premium + housing and transportation allowance. It is also possible for local company to hire from overseas and give expat package but that's usually pre-negotiated or pre-understood at the time of final job interview.

If your status doesn't fit the description above, then you are a local hire. Unless you have glorious employment background, graduated from the most prestigious school in Europe and/or speak Chinese, English and your native European language fluently, even RMB10K a month could be a stretch.

There's a ton of young foreigners in Shanghai and most of them are language teacher. They often complain that it's a boring job but their "foreigness" by itself really doesn't carry too much weight in the business world.

I remember watching a TV program here, where the camera crew follow a young European male for a few weeks on his request to find a decent job before his visa expires. He really didn't wanted to teach anymore and was hoping to land a job paying RMB15K - 20K per month. In the end, he settled for a RMB7K per month job with a local company.

However if you're not set on living life lavishly and don't mind assimilating into local culture/lifestyle, RMB10K per month is actually quite good. Most college grads in Shanghai would be happy to have their first job paying more than RMB5K a month.

frenchlover1999
Shanghai Royalty

Joined: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 8729

Posted: June 02, 2005 - 05:51 PM

Quote:

I remember watching a TV program here, where the camera crew follow a young European male for a few weeks on his request to find a decent job before his visa expires. He really didn't wanted to teach anymore and was hoping to land a job paying RMB15K - 20K per month. In the end, he settled for a RMB7K per month job with a local company.

Thats a very interesting one, I wish I could watch it.

Agree with everything in your post. Seems Rio however has a good lead, so good luck to him.

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That was no shark. That was my personal submarine. But enough of this polite conversation. What is the purpose of your visit?

Rio
Post Boaster

Joined: Dec 04, 2004
Posts: 4724

Posted: June 02, 2005 - 06:18 PM

PKMAN, thanks for your post. It makes sense to me. I have two companies right now. One is Dutch based and has an Asian subsidiary in SH. The other one is not Dutch, but Australian and has a subsidiary in SH as well. I can't really tell what the situation is, I think it will be safer to say that I will be hired as a local.

From reading your posts here in this topic I know what to expect, and I've gained more insight in this subject. Cheers to you all. Will let you know after my trip to SH, what the deal is. Not the figures of course. Wink

GeorgeBG

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Joined: Apr 12, 2005
Posts: 68
Location: Sofia
Status: Offline

Posted: June 02, 2005 - 06:51 PM
Post subject: Salaries in Europe - voila

frenchlover1999 wrote:

My turn to ask a question: European salaries seem to be much higher

Frenchlover, here is the answer to your question on salaries in Europe, from Eurostat:

http://euobserver.com/?aid=19212&rk=1

frenchlover1999
Shanghai Royalty

Joined: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 8729

Posted: June 02, 2005 - 08:45 PM

Tks!

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gisselle531

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Joined: May 25, 2005
Posts: 42

Status: Offline

Posted: June 06, 2005 - 11:39 AM

Rio, you are in pretty much the exact same position as I am. I just graduated from the University of Florida, top 50 university in US. I am interested in finding a job in Shanghai but not sure how to go about it.

I saw that your location is Amsterdam, how did you go about finding a job in Shanghai from Amsterdam? What is your degree in? Do you speak Mandarin? Do you have previous work experience?

I don't mean to be pry, I just ask all that so I have an idea of where I stand. I speak Spanish and English fluently, but no Manderin. I have three prior internships with a hotel chain, a clothing company, and another with the Trump organization.

I am very lost and have no idea where I would stand in Shanghai salary wise. Prior to this post, I heard that foreigners that were not expats., get paid very little. But your salary seems relatively comfortable.

All the companies that I speak with here in the US tell me to apply directly through their Shanghai office. They do this to avoid having to pay me expat salary and benefits.

Rio or anyone esle out there please give me an idea of where I stand and what to expect.

thanks

frenchlover1999
Shanghai Royalty

Joined: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 8729

Posted: June 07, 2005 - 11:10 PM

Giss, I assume you are a girl so I wont play the mean Frenchman and say we already have too many useless foreigners here. In truth, the problem is that nowadays everyone wants to find a job in Shanghai. Most are young grads without much experience, without knowledge of the local market, without much value added compared to local guys, in fact quite often local guys can do much more. Its a tough sale, you have to identify a niche where your profile would have some value. From the perspective of companies, it is not about avoiding to pay expat salaries... International companies still send lots of expensive expats and sometimes recruit "locally" at expats rates - but only when they cannot find what they need locally at local rates. So the question for you is what do you want to do in Shanghai? You mentioned working in hotel? I know some international hotels have international trainees but otherwise employees are all locals except top jobs like GM, chef etc. In your target market, do companies need someone like you and how do you differentiate from locals? Assuming your only differentiator is your English language skills (many locals also speak English) and US education, you could try to be a temporary English teacher like countless others, or find a company that values such skills (perhaps they need someone to liaise with HQs or with foreign partners). From your post, my guess is that if you find such company (most multinationals will not be interested at all) your value would be the same as the equivalent local graduate. Pehaps 6k/month in the beginning. It enough to live, have some fun, gain some experience, then after a while go back to the US to get a real job. Good luck!

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That was no shark. That was my personal submarine. But enough of this polite conversation. What is the purpose of your visit?

gisselle531

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Joined: May 25, 2005
Posts: 42

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Posted: June 07, 2005 - 11:58 PM

Thanks for the response frenchlover.

Now, do you all agree with his response?

I would like to have another perspective on this point. If a few others of you second frenchie's opinion then I would assume he is correct. Otherwise, please let me hear what you all have to say.

thanks, this is important to me.

geek

Lurker

Joined: June 02, 2005
Posts: 32

Status: Offline

Posted: June 08, 2005 - 12:11 AM

"you have to identify a niche where your profile would have some value"

This is so true. Coming from a Top 10 US Engin school, speaking fluent English and Mandarin, and having looked into the China market, I would gladly second most of frenchlover1999's opinions.

pickle005

Barker

Joined: Dec 23, 2004
Posts: 158

Status: Offline

Posted: June 08, 2005 - 12:39 AM

This is a bit off the topic(not that much), but it maybe of some use to Rio, Giselle and whoever else that wants a job in SH.

From what I heard, the only US firms that will send relatively junoir lvl employees to china are the Big Four Accounting firms. (PwC, E&Y, KMPG, D&T) But, still you need a few yrs of US experience and a CPA(do-able in 2-3 yrs tops). This is the most rational way of going about it, a very clear career path, pretty good pay(by chinese standard) and should you want to go back to the US/Europe, you'll get credit for your chinese exp. if you have an MBA from a top US b-school, then u'll have a lot more optoin, Goldman, Morgan and a few private equity firms. But, for fresh college grads, working in the Big Four for a few yrs before coming to china is not a bad way to go.

dejandiklic

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Joined: June 06, 2005
Posts: 30
Location: Huai Hai/HuangPi
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Posted: June 08, 2005 - 08:41 AM
Post subject: Salary is a very interesting subject over here

The comany I work for is one of the bigest in the world and the range of salaries in the Shanghai office are really amazing, the foreigners on company assignments make their US salaries with added bonueses etc. The local people are paid 1/10 of what we are paid (at best). h
When I hear the salaries that they get I can only cringe. Shanghai is not a chepo place to be.
As far as young graduate comming over here, thats hard I think.
Get some expirience, go work for a large company and then after 4/5 years ask for an assignement in Shanghai. That way you will have some credibility and good chance to come over here. The other way is develop your own company and come here.

All I can say is, there is so much good stuf over here I'd hate to live on local salary.

Dejan

gisselle531

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Joined: May 25, 2005
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Posted: June 08, 2005 - 09:25 AM

** this post welcomes comments from everyone, I just addressed the begginig to Dejan Smile

Dejan, I appreciate your advice. From reading your post, it seems that you are one of the lucky few getting the great salary. If you do not mind my asking, what is your position at your company? Do you do any hiring? If so, what qualifications do you look for? Here in the US, getting a job is sometimes more about who you know rather than what you know. Does it work like that in Shanghai?

Basically what it comes down to is I am defenitely going to Shanghai this July 6 to start interning for one of the most prestigious advertising agencies in the field. My hope is that I may be offered a permanent position with them, emphasis on hope. As of now, the internship is for 2 months with the possibility for me to extend it if I would like. I would like to stay in Shanghai, but not working for free. During those two months that I am interning I would like to find a job with a salary - preferably a US salary.

Do you all think it would be okay to start applying for other jobs while I am interning or will my company find out and be offended. Also, what do you all think are my chances of being hired with the company I will be interning for?

I want to thank everyone for being so kind and patient with me. Your advice has been very well received and appreciated more than you could ever imagine. Very Happy

dejandiklic

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Joined: June 06, 2005
Posts: 30
Location: Huai Hai/HuangPi
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Posted: June 08, 2005 - 10:04 AM

Sent you email.

Dejan

frenchlover1999
Shanghai Royalty

Joined: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 8729

Posted: June 08, 2005 - 10:49 AM

Quote:

asically what it comes down to is I am defenitely going to Shanghai this July 6 to start interning for one of the most prestigious advertising agencies in the field.

Considering your situation, this is a great way to start. As for expats package or not, it is mainly about supply/demand. If they have to pay you that much, they will. Only exceptions are some large bureaucratic companies, whose HR decisions are not market driven.

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That was no shark. That was my personal submarine. But enough of this polite conversation. What is the purpose of your visit?

pickle005

Barker

Joined: Dec 23, 2004
Posts: 158

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Posted: June 08, 2005 - 11:03 AM

It's certainly possible that they may offer u a permanent position at the end of your internship, but I'd scale down my expectations. If they offer you anything above 10k rmb a month, take it. It's a lot of money and future pay off could be huge.