Hello all,

My husband, my 12-year-old daughter and I plan to move to Shanghai for 6 months or so this fall. Our purpose is for my daughter to learn to speak Mandarin.

Leila was born in Zhanjiang and adopted at the age of 4-and-a-half months. Since the age of 5, she has been taking Mandarin classes at schools here in Vancouver. Unfortunately, the teaching leaves a lot to be desired, but I understand that learning Mandarin is a very long and slow road. We hope that immersing her in the Chinese culture and language will do the trick.

I have many, many questions about moving to Shanghai that I'd like to ask you all, but my main concern right now is Leila's peanut allergy. She carries epi-pens and we are very cautious about what she eats. I don't want her to grow up afraid to travel, but I need to know how other families might be dealing with this problem in China.

For example, will restaurants be off-limits? How about the attitude of the Chinese toward peanut allergy? Many Chinese here in Vancouver tell us that it is completely unknown in China. Has anyone had experience at a hospital in a peanut emergency?

I'd love to talk to anyone else in this situation.

Thanks so much.

Why not Beijing to learn Mandarin ?

Although Mandarin will be thought not necessarily by a Shanghainese in Shanghai, everyday discussions will be more in shanghainese I think ..

Not very sure about the peanut issue .. sorry

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Good point, bougie, we did consider Beijing. However, my husband works in the film industry here and has just spent 3 months in Hengdian. He feels Shanghai is a much more livable city.

Lots of details to iron out, for sure.

How severe is her peanut allergy? If she carries an epi-pen, then it must be quite intense but what is her level of sensitivity? Does she react to peanut particulate matter? If she is on the extreme side, I think that it would be very risky to go to restaurants in Shanghai. I can imagine a scenario when you request “no peanuts” so they only put a few peanuts into the dish…There is practically zero awareness for food allergies. I often see kids with tell-tale dairy rashes or other obvious symptoms of food allergies, but they are attributed to other causes. When I ask the mother, she will say that there is "too much heat" and it is causing the rash or the bad quality air.

There is an expat organized food allergy support group for parents that meets monthly at Shanghai United Hospital that could probably help answer your specific questions with more accurate information. The organizer is named Ileen and her email is (ileen at tsao.biz).

6 months might be good exposure, but not exactly immersion. Plus, you and she will find that many children her age in Shanghai speak English, so that is going to be the fall back language they speak to one another.

On peanut allergy, wow. Is 6 months worth that risk? The above posts are highly valid. I own a restaurant and we use peanut oil, peanuts, etc., in many dishes. If I weren't there and you asked, I am not sure what answers you may get.

And, to top it off.....I own an American barbeque restaurant.

MahamYe wrote:How severe is her peanut allergy? If she carries an epi-pen, then it must be quite intense but what is her level of sensitivity? .....
There is an expat organized food allergy support group for parents

Although she has never had an anaphylactic reaction to peanuts, there's no way to predict what the next reaction will be. Her last reaction was in a hospital setting during a challenge test. Her lips and tongue swelled up and she became extremely itchy and anxious. A dose of Benadryl managed quell the reaction and put her to sleep for the rest of the day. According to her allergist, there is no such thing as a "mild peanut allergy" because any exposure can suddenly trip over that line.

We seldom eat out here, so if we're restricted to home cooking in Shanghai, so be it.

Thanks for the contact at the support group, MahamYe. This is just what I needed.

KJ wrote:6 months might be good exposure, but not exactly immersion. .....
On peanut allergy, wow. Is 6 months worth that risk?

It's a very tough question, KJ. I have heard a few stories from people who do manage, but they are adults and some of the stories are quite old. It makes me very nervous to hear otherwise and I do hope someone with personal experience will be able to help out. Meanwhile, my husband and I continue to debate whether this is really a good idea on any level.

As for immersion/exposure -- well, I'll settle for exposure. Anything's better than the frustrating experience of teachers who say Oh, Yes, she's learning, she's doing fine, no problem, then finding out that she can hardly hold the most basic of conversations. We've changed schools three times now. Since she is of Chinese heritage, we really want her to learn Mandarin and have some pride in that. If exposure will get her out of the baby classes she's been put into in this last school, I'll be happy.

Biggest problem would be school meals I think.
Make sure she takes her own food with her.

Yes, what Bonnie says is true.. school meals would be a problem, as would Birthday parties, visits to friends' places.. telling them that she is allergic to peanuts all the time.. here the labelling on food is all in chinese, unless you could read chinese you would'nt know whether it contained peanuts, or fried in peanut oil...and very few labels I could read were " processed in a facility that also processes nuts".. its going to be tough.
She would have to carry all her meals and not have any food from outside.

Quote a German quotation,Shanghai is a good place for work but not for enjoy yourself.Especially you like sun tan or beach.But Shanghai is safer.

There is a regular poster on here that has a very severe peanut allergy also. He manages quite well with it. Actually, the only time he had a problem was at a well known western restaurant where i believe he thought that the chef already knew, so he didn't say no peanuts. It is manageable. What i suggest is find a good base of restaurants that can cater to your needs. The best method here is once you find something that works, stick to it.

It depends in the school she will be going...
Ok, maybe chinese schools don't take food allergies in a serius way, but at my son's school, which is american,
they care a lot.Allways when we need to bring food or has a birthday party they asks us NOT to bring anything with any kind
if nuts...
But, of course, she will be going in a chinese school to learn chinese, so maybe is more complicated.
Everything here comes with peanut, or is cooked in peanut oil!
Good luck, and take care!
I hope you can manage this, cause you're given a wonderfull chance to your daughter learn chinese in a proper way!

I can't advise on the peanut allergy aspect (but it sounds like it would be very hard to deal with here, .. I think it's already hard for say vegetarians.. as Chinese tend to eat anything and everything and have no understanding of 'allergies' even though I am told there are many locals who suffer from them (by a doctor)! I am asthmatic and it can be triggered by a number of things and when I tell people I'm allergic to their cigarette smoke they may put it out for a few mins and start up another one again. I don't think they are doing it deliberately but there is a lot of IGNORANCE to what it is all about!)

To be honest I don't think 6 months of learning Chinese would do much for a 12 year old. I mean, even if she is immersed it it every single day, as soon as she goes back to Canada she will gradually start to forget everything she learnt.

I recommend living in a villa away from central areas in Puxi. Residential complexes out near Shanghai American School Puxi(far west/southwest Shanghai) are suitable and safe for you and the peanut allergy.

please ignore these ignoramuses (spelling) who say 6 mths won't do sh1t. Better than nothing, and you will be suprised how much a youngster can learn.

you will be fine, and as i said earlier, find a few restaurants you can trust and you will have no problems.

I agree with mat...6 months can do a lot!
my son never had spoken english and in 3 months he could speak a lot! after 6 months he was considered fluent in english!
I know that for a 3 years old kid it's easier, but yours is still young, and she will learn a lot, for sure!

Thanks for the advice and encouragement everyone?

Sorry to disappoint you 'mat' but I'm not an "ignoramus."

You may wonder where I'm getting my information from. It is from people I know and people I've talked to and maybe even from myself.

I learnt Mandarin every year for 10 years from the age of 6 to 16. OK given it was only 1 day per week, but over the space of 10 years you'd think I would've learnt a lot right?? Nope!! I am now 30 and can only use a very basic vocabulary (equivalent to a 5-6 year old child) and can only read about 25% of the major characters, if that.
The reason I didn't learn as much as I should was because I spoke English with my friends at school (in Australia), I spoke English to my sister, I spoke English to my parents. I sometimes spoke Mandarin to them but as time when on and I became a teenager it was very 'uncool' to speak anything other than English to my parents.

BTW, my parents are both Mandarin speakers. If it wasn't for the fact that I constantly heard them speaking to one another and to friends, I probably wouldn't have retained anything from the stuff I learnt in Chinese school.

There is a reputable Japanese school in Sydney and I have spoken to people who did their ENTIRE primary/elementary schooling there from the age of about 5 to 12. When I met these people they were in their early 20's. They did not remember anything they learnt.

OK so maybe I've just got a few cases or examples here, and hey I didn't say it wasn't beneficial. I just said as soon as she goes back home and starts using English again (particularly if her parents are both English speaking) it will soon be forgotten.

I think to be fluent in a language you would need to be immersed in it every single day from a very young age (probably 8 or younger) and then continue using it as an adult.

If you really want her to get better in Mandarin I would enrol her in weekend classes when she gets back home (while she can still easily retain and retrieve everything she learnt) and then take it up in high school as well, if that's an option. Otherwise (assuming you and your husband are neither Mandarin speaking) get a home tutor. But I think it needs to be ongoing and she needs to enjoy it. I guess I didn't learn much because I hated going to Chinese school every weekend and it was just a chore.

Another example I have is a friend where the parents are Taiwanese and the children were born in the US. They moved to Australia when their two kids were only 2 and 4. They lived in Sydney for about 6 years then moved to Taiwan for the father's job. The area they lived in is full of expats, foreigners and Americans. Although they didn't go to an American school they associated with them and they still had the knowledge from going to school in Sydney so as a consequence their English is quite good (in their late teens and early 20s).

I'm sorry if my first post sounded negative and non-encouraging. I was just trying to give my (informed) viewpoint.

Camelina, thank you for your detailed message. I understand your point of view and have been asking myself for weeks whether this move will accomplish anything.

As I said in my original post, my daughter's heritage is Chinese. My husband and I have always felt that it was important that she learn to speak Mandarin. Unfortunately, her experience seems similar to yours: weekly classes for 7 years, but not much has been learned. She has no opportunity to practice and, until we signed her up for a straight conversation class last April, does not enjoy it. I've already arranged for her to take these classes up again when we return.

Are we misguided to hope that she might get a good leg up on the language by spending 6 months in Shanghai? And more than language -- perhaps an appreciation for her roots? I believe travel is always a good thing for a kid and she'll benefit even if she doesn't improve her Mandarin much.

We have to try, right? It's our duty as (adoptive) parents. She may not thank me now, but I hope she'll value the experience when she's older.

Sandy, you sound like a wonderful mother and parent I'm sorry if my previous posts sounded negative and not encouraging.

Yep, bring her here.. at least she will understand the culture a lot better, the people, the food, the history, etc. You definitely wouldn't have wasted your time And at her age she will have very clear memories of her trip here. And who knows - her schoolfriends may even be jealous

Mat's right. A reasonably intelligent kid immersed in Chinese will come out light years ahead. If, however, you are looking at a few hours one day a week, she'll end up like Camelina -- an adult with the functional literacy of a four-year-old.

The peanut allergy is what would worry me. I would not trust any restaurant to operate any type of peanut-free environment especially when the consequences of a slip up can spell disaster. All it takes for many people with peanut allergies is the smallest part of peanut content transferred from one food to another. It's even tough in countries like the UK or US. In China, it's a crap shoot.

Hey! I said 5-6, not 4. BTW I'm curious how much Chinese do you know?

5, 6 or 4 ... same difference. It's still functionally illiterate.

My Chinese allows me to survive quite well in a Chinese environment yet I don't claim to have studied for ten years.

I do have a son who spent one year in the neighborhood pre-school several years ago and his Chinese is very good. He has tons of Chinese friends and they only communicate in Chinese. In fact, he seldom will use English with Chinese people because he says their English is too poor and it's more efficient and productive to communicate with them in Chinese.

If you immerse a kid in Chinese, the reasonably intelligent kid will pick it up and use it. If you're thinking of a one-day a week Chinese lesson and no practical application, well ... you already know that.

underh20 wrote:I do have a son who spent one year in the neighborhood pre-school several years ago and his Chinese is very good. He has tons of Chinese friends and they only communicate in Chinese. In fact, he seldom will use English with Chinese people because he says their English is too poor and it's more efficient and productive to communicate with them in Chinese.

How old is your son now? Where is he living?

Well isn't that obvious? I don't speak English to Chinese locals either, even if they can speak English. It's just much easier to speak to them in Chinese.

By the tone of your msg - are you suggesting I'm not intelligent because I failed to pick up Mandarin despite '10 years' of learning?

I agree with you about the immersion part. I lived in a very white neighbourhood where I had NO Asian friends because there simply wasn't any Asian people there at that time (80s). It's different now of course, it's more multicultural. But if I have no Chinese friends there is noone to speak to other than my parents.

Sure I don't know a great deal of Mandarin but I know enough to get by. I can speak to my ayi, taxi drivers, I've never had a problem getting around here or dealing with people or services.

i do.
im allergic to all nuts and a number of seeds but hypersensitive to peanuts. i react not only when i ingest but also when nuts are served near me.

i think the biggest issue is whether you are comfortable knowing how you and your daughter will react after an exposure. imho, i think the chances of her being exposed to peanuts during a 6 month stay are quite high.
i have a reaction maybe once every three months but i am fairly adventurous (or stupid) for someone with a severe nut allergy. amongst other favorites, i love my thai house and my ding tai fung- 2 places where i have had problems.
while i choose to forgo an epipen injection (i dont like the idea of a massive dose of epinephrine taken intramuscularly nor can i handle the responsibility of bringing the pen everywhere) i go through the process of a forced vomit, itchiness, swelling, and depending on whether i actually ingested any product, stomach cramps/light diarrhea.
it sounds bad but as soon as a peanut product hits my throat, i know it and im in and out of the bathroom within 5 minutes. i drink a few sodas (preferably ginger ale) and im fine in about an hour.
other nut products are worse as i dont feel the reaction until i have ingested a larger amount. a few slices of pizza with pesto (i.e. pine nuts or if the restaurant is cheap, walnuts) and im in for a night of cramps/diarrhea after the obligatory vomit.
another nightmare is the train: locals love to eat sunflower seeds and spit out the shell spewing the seed dust throughout the train. its a living hell for me: red itchy eyes, itchy throat, asthma...nowadays i avoid trains.

you can minimize her risks by cooking most or all of her meals and severely restricting where you eat out.
even upscale local restaurants and some western run joints have no concept of a nut allergy. my girlfriend diligently warns every server about my allergies and the answer is always the same: i understand, dont worry, we dont use nuts, we dont use nut oils... but of course they do.

if you decide to come, feel free to pm me and i will give you a list of places i consider safe to eat for a person with a severe nut allergy.

good luck.

One argument for early, and thorough language learning is accent. It is much easier to learn and use the sounds that are not common in her mother tongue - which I assume is English.

As for being here, one possibility is that when she is a teenager and starts to hate you, she will retain some gratitude for the life you've given her, having seen the alternative.

A high end compound in Pudong seems like a strange place to find culture/language immersion. I agree that Shanghai is better than Beijing, and that it's a hard place for good language immersion - lots of people speak English, signs are in English. How neat that you have a lifestyle that allows you pick up and relocate for six months. It sounds like a grand adventure!

Thank you for posting bleucheese. Having read some of your previous posts on the subject, I was hoping you'd weigh in here.

I think restaurants will be off-limits for a good while. We've ordered some strongly-worded food cards from Select Wisely (http://www.selectwisely.com/selectwisel ... 000004.htm) but until we have a better handle on the language, we'll play it safe. Expect the worst and hope for the best.

I'll certainly take you up on the offer of a list of safe restaurants when the time comes. That's very helpful.

Disappointed about the train though. Sunflower seeds in themselves are not a problem, but I imagine peanuts are a very handy, cheap snack, perfect for traveling, right? Hmmm, the bunny has never had a reaction to peanut dust, but then again, she's never really been exposed like that.

I do hope your strategy continues to work for you and your allergy doesn't tip over into that very dangerous territory. It's a fine line for a parent to walk: how do you encourage a child to be careful and yet not fearful? As she has pointed out to me a few times now: It's not YOUR life that's on the line here, it's MINE! But it would be a shame if she never traveled for fear of peanuts.

Thanks again.

Thanks, mswp.

But we don't want a high end compound in Pudong! We don't want to live in the expat bubble and we don't want an international school for our daughter. Is this possible?

Her teacher says her accent is good. She started at 5, so she has a bit of an ear from that. There was an interesting study a few months ago that seemed to point to a genetic component in ability to produce tones in language (University of Edinborough). So perhaps she does have an edge--she certainly is distainful of her mom's attempts to speak any Mandarin at all.

For someone who claims to be non-PC, you sure do have a chip on your shoulder about the word "Mandarin." I guess I'll just have to contact the 2 dozen or so schools and colleges here that offer courses in "Mandarin" to let them know that it's not a politically correct term. But how will I tell my Chinese friends?

So for this trivial question about semantics, you've rushed to judge our lives and parenting, even going so far to compare us to the parents of Jon Benet Ramsey? What the hell do you know about our daughter or adoption?

Yes, it would be so easy to just stay at home and sweep my daughter's heritage under the rug, wouldn't it? I know lots of adoptive families where that happens and the kids hear nothing but fluff about China--nothing solid or real, just crap about astrological signs and the occasional visit to a Chinese restaurant. Those kids are going to look in the mirror one day and say, Who the hell am I? Should we just pretend she's white? I suspect you'd be the first to condemn us for that.

I'm just making an assumption here, Leidalaohu, but I'm willing to bet you grew up among people who looked like you. Can't you imagine what it would be like, even in a city that has such a large Chinese population like Vancouver, to almost always be the odd one out. Even a trip to Chinatown makes her a side-show, with her white parents.

As for peanuts, some kind people have offered REAL advice as well as contact with people who do manage to cope with a peanut allergy in China. Because of this list and other sources, we're in touch with a support group for food allergies. So I know that it can be done. It won't be easy, but it's never been easy. We haven't had a reaction since she was diagnosed because we're never lazy about it. My daughter knows the risks and is used to saying NO, Thank you, to offers of food.

Shanghai was chosen because my husband has some friends and experience there.

Maybe when you're a parent yourself, you'll have a clue. Even then, it won't give you the right to make unhelpful value judgements. And perhaps you could educate yourself about adoption as well, before you pontificate about it.

So what? I should choose what to do or where to go based on what a CHILD does or does not want? She hates it if we paint a wall. Then she loves it. She wails and complains if we make her take a walk. Then she has a fantastic time. It's called childhood. She's the child, we're the parents.