A newborn Chinese baby girl was abandoned in a outside toilet. Medical personnel were called to rescue the baby girl whose umbilical cord was yet uncut ...

So how's that "One Baby Policy" working out for you China, good ??

Video link

First seen on Youku.com

Sadly, this happens all over the world. 57 newborn abandonments per day in the US, for example.

http://www.google.ca/search?client=safa ... 2QXowMWMAg

tihZ_hO wrote:A newborn Chinese baby girl was abandoned in a outside toilet. Medical personnel were called to rescue the baby girl whose umbilical cord was yet uncut ...

So how's that "One Baby Policy" working out for you China, good ??

Video link

First seen on Youku.com

I must be daft. If the "umbilical cord was yet uncut" then the mother was still there? How is this abandonment? Who knows if this is due to the one child policy? Do you know what you are ranting about?

With 1.3+ Billion people in China and 6.8+ Billion people world wide people need to stop being so sensitive (like in US everyone buying guns when the crime rate is actually very low) to what people see on tv/internet unless it is happening to more then 1% of population.

runningmom wrote:

tihZ_hO wrote:A newborn Chinese baby girl was abandoned in a outside toilet. Medical personnel were called to rescue the baby girl whose umbilical cord was yet uncut ...

So how's that "One Baby Policy" working out for you China, good ??

Video link

First seen on Youku.com

I must be daft. If the "umbilical cord was yet uncut" then the mother was still there? How is this abandonment? Who knows if this is due to the one child policy? Do you know what you are ranting about?

Who's ranting?



Girl baby abandonment, Chinese tend to want boy babies because they is only one shot to get it right.

Yes, who knows what's the reason for the mother abandoning the baby girl in a outside toilet. But I've only seen the video which was first on Youko, so what's your take? You did watch the video, yes? If the mother is not there and the cord isn't cut means the placenta is there.

Perhaps someone will find it on Youko and do a translation and the backstory.





PS sorry about using your avatar but the irony compelled me

Sad. What a way to come into this world.

I now have these images burned into my brain. Time will help me forget but there will always be a reminder whenever I come across a public washroom. Sigh.

runningmom wrote:
I must be daft. If the "umbilical cord was yet uncut" then the mother was still there? How is this abandonment? Who knows if this is due to the one child policy? Do you know what you are ranting about?

I assume the mother had already passed the placenta and thus the placenta was still attached to the baby.

As for the 1 child thing...

This happens worldwide, often as a result unwanted teenage pregnancies where the kid was too scared to seek help or too stupid to know what was happening. In a country such as this where the shame of something as simple as failed grades can bring about suicide, and where lack of public education about sex and protection are rampant, I'm amazed it doesn't happen much more frequently. Can you imagine the shame and disgrace a pregnant child would have to endure here?

tihZ_hO wrote:A newborn Chinese baby girl was abandoned in a outside toilet. Medical personnel were called to rescue the baby girl whose umbilical cord was yet uncut ...

So how's that "One Baby Policy" working out for you China, good ??

Video link

First seen on Youku.com

--
I think court should sentence the parent of abandoned children.

NorthernLights wrote:

runningmom wrote:
I must be daft. If the "umbilical cord was yet uncut" then the mother was still there? How is this abandonment? Who knows if this is due to the one child policy? Do you know what you are ranting about?

I assume the mother had already passed the placenta and thus the placenta was still attached to the baby.

As for the 1 child thing...

This happens worldwide, often as a result unwanted teenage pregnancies where the kid was too scared to seek help or too stupid to know what was happening. In a country such as this where the shame of something as simple as failed grades can bring about suicide, and where lack of public education about sex and protection are rampant, I'm amazed it doesn't happen much more frequently. Can you imagine the shame and disgrace a pregnant child would have to endure here?

It does happen more frequently, its just that its not reported, obviously. My ex told me that this is not so uncommon for baby girls to be abandoned in the woods in rural China. She has personally seen this and once at a village in Shandong province, she saw a dog with a new born baby in its mouth - she only could guess this was a baby girl. She told me Chinese would NEVER talk about this and she also felt uncomfortable to speak of it ... obviously.

I have never seen this, I pray I never do, however with everything I have seen in China its not a stretch of the imagination to think this is more wide spread than what is reported or seen, sadly

tihZ_hO wrote:It does happen more frequently, its just that its not reported, obviously. My ex told me that this is not so uncommon for baby girls to be abandoned in the woods in rural China.

I don't know why tihz is so confident "it does happen more frequently." "it is not so uncommon for baby girl to be abandoned". Anyway after I read these words, I have a picture that Chinese native is a cool-blooded native. But thinking of the people around me, my parents, friends, relatives and colleague, I say no to this. After all, I have lived in this land for 30+ years. I know well this people living here. I don't deny this case happened in China, but it is aboslutely not "Common" and not "more frequently" . As a Chinese, we hate so much those parents abondoned their baby or disable baby whatever the reason is. And in my mind, the Chinese maybe the parents most cosseting their baby in this world. I was borned in a village. I remember when i am young, one time my mother saw a news from TV that one bay was abandoned to wild place by her parents and finally was frozen to death. My mother weeped and cursed the parents go to hell. And now I saw the news I also hope the guilty parent were arrestted and sentenced a felony punishment. This is the thinking of a gerenal Chinese to baby abandoning. The parents abandoned their baby would face publishment of morality and legal in China.

Let's talk sth. about one child policy of China. In 1949, PRC established, the population is 540 mil, but after 36 years (1985), the population was doubled, sharply increased to 1,060 mil. I must say one child policy is a necessary action for China (minority native don't need follow one child policy). If not controlling the population explosive growth, it can be predicted China would have to go colonizing and expanding way in war. It would be a disaster to neighbor countries. So China gov. controlled the population. Now the policy is facing to be abolished due to population growth is under control. 5-6years ago, the people in countryside has been allowed to have two babies. And recent 2-3 year ago, "one child" parents in city also were allowed to have two babies.

As my original intention, I don't plan to reply tihz's this post. But I saw there are many misleading words in it, so I have to defend for most Chinese. few Chinese' crime should be expanded (or misleaded )to the whole native.

Tihz, you don't need call me 50 cent party again. If what I did let me like a 50 cent party, I'm happy I am.

QNMD wrote:

tihZ_hO wrote:It does happen more frequently, its just that its not reported, obviously. My ex told me that this is not so uncommon for baby girls to be abandoned in the woods in rural China.

I don't know why tihz is so confident "it does happen more frequently." "it is not so uncommon for baby girl to be abandoned". Anyway after I read these words, I have a picture that Chinese native is a cool-blooded native. But thinking of the people around me, my parents, friends, relatives and colleague, I say no to this. After all, I have lived in this land for 30+ years. I know well this people living here. I don't deny this case happened in China, but it is aboslutely not "Common" and not "more frequently" . As a Chinese, we hate so much those parents abondoned their baby or disable baby whatever the reason is. And in my mind, the Chinese maybe the parents most cosseting their baby in this world. I was borned in a village. I remember when i am young, one time my mother saw a news from TV that one bay was abandoned to wild place by her parents and finally was frozen to death. My mother weeped and cursed the parents go to hell. And now I saw the news I also hope the guilty parent were arrestted and sentenced a felony punishment. This is the thinking of a gerenal Chinese to baby abandoning. The parents abandoned their baby would face publishment of morality and legal in China.

Let's talk sth. about one child policy of China. In 1949, PRC established, the population is 540 mil, but after 36 years (1985), the population was doubled, sharply increased to 1,060 mil. I must say one child policy is a necessary action for China (minority native don't need follow one child policy). If not controlling the population explosive growth, it can be predicted China would have to go colonizing and expanding way in war. It would be a disaster to neighbor countries. So China gov. controlled the population. Now the policy is facing to be abolished due to population growth is under control. 5-6years ago, the people in countryside has been allowed to have two babies. And recent 2-3 year ago, "one child" parents in city also were allowed to have two babies.

As my original intention, I don't plan to reply tihz's this post. But I saw there are many misleading words in it, so I have to defend for most Chinese. few Chinese' crime should be expanded (or misleaded )to the whole native.

Tihz, you don't need call me 50 cent party again. If what I did let me like a 50 cent party, I'm happy I am.

No I won't say you are in the 50 cent party, this time, (next time who can say) because what you posted should be said, this was your experience and should be heard. While I do joke around on the forum I can be serious and there is nothing more serious than this topic.

Let me explain, my ex was born in a village in Shandong province. She also used to stay with her grandmother (who had small feet) in Harbin. She told me so many horror stories about what she personally experienced growing up, what her parents told her and what she heard from other people she knew. In addition, other Chinese I know, my ex's business partner from down Wenzhou way also reflected on how terrible it was to see a dead baby in the woods. Don't misunderstand, I am not implying that in taking a short jaunt through the woods one would be tripping over the bodies. No, but she has seen more than one or two. Of course I said it may have been a dead pig or some other animal in which she said some of the remains she saw could have been, but there were some om which there is no doubt.

This period of time in China was after some disastrous government programs in which between 25 to 40 million people starved to death. China's recovery was slow and poor people had no resources to spare, so having a girl, as I was told, was considered a disaster for some.

That was then, and now China is prosperous, however there are still many millions of Chinese people living on sustenance level with few or no resources to spare. Now that China has the one child policy, two for minorities, this issue is exasperated (see below). Please tell me why there are thousands upon thousands of girls working as prostitutes in China and overseas? For example, one famous Chinese city, Dongguan, over 50,000 girls are working as prostitutes. In other countries there are thousands, and thousands of Chinese girls also working as prostitutes (trust me I know). So chances are, the mother was a prostitute and why she didn't get an abortion, who knows?

I agree with you that not all Chinese are this way, that's the same as saying all Americans have a gun and are fat....well maybe not a good example. Many Chinese ARE shocked by this video and the thought that someone could be so cold as to let a baby die. Having said that there are also many Chinese who are indifferent to the well being of others.

Do you recall the recent video of a child being run over by a truck and then again by a van and 19 people passed by and had no reaction what so ever?? It was if that child was a dog laying there dying in the street. How do you explain this away?? Yes many Chinese were outraged by the actions of these callous people, but are they the majority or only those who happened to be heard?



One child policy

The policy is controversial both within and outside China because of the manner in which the policy has been implemented, and because of concerns about negative social consequences.[5] The policy has been implicated in an increase in forced abortions,[6] female infanticide, and underreporting[7] of female births, and has been suggested as a possible cause behind China's gender imbalance.

In most rural areas, families are allowed to apply to have a second child if the first is a girl,[18] or has a physical disability, mental illness or mental retardation.[19] Second children are subject to birth spacing (usually 3 or 4 years). Additional children will result in large fines: families violating the policy are required to pay monetary penalties and might be denied bonuses at their workplace.

Nevertheless, the US State Department,[89] the Parliament of the United Kingdom,[90] and the human rights organization Amnesty International[91] have all declared that China's family planning programs contribute to infanticide.

Link with the references as numbered above

This topic has morphed a bit with the last few posts.

The initial post about an abandoned newborn is tragic but not uncommon anywhere.

But the issue of the one-child policy, the Chinese mania for sons, and the resulting disappearance of millions of chinese girls is a tragedy 10 million times over. I've documented it before:

In 2004, there were approximately 75 million boys under 9. (The eldest of them are now 16, soon to reach marriageable age.) That means there were 62 million girls.

Using the average sex ratio cited in the quote (1.055:1) there should only have been 71 million girls. That leaves a shortfall of 9 million girls, about 1 million per year.

Where did these 1 million girls disappear to every year from 1995 to 2004?

Obviously, with only 1 million girls disappearing each year, a minority of Chinese are causing the problem. But it's a significant minority (1 million per year gone compared to 8 million per year born = approx 15% ).

That's a cultural epidemic. Blame this on the government's policy and on the inability of many people to let go of a traditional idea that is irrational in today's world. Yes, the government had to do something about population growth, but as is often the case, "the chief cause of problems is bad solutions".

This is related to the other thread that's running right now about shengnu, which has its roots in the same cause - women being under-valued. What a tragedy for all those Chinese women.

This is one of those cases where if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Get behind your sisters, China! Stop treating them like second-class citizens!

Bobchina wrote:

tihZ_hO wrote:A newborn Chinese baby girl was abandoned in a outside toilet. Medical personnel were called to rescue the baby girl whose umbilical cord was yet uncut ...

So how's that "One Baby Policy" working out for you China, good ??

Video link

First seen on Youku.com

--
I think court should sentence the parent of abandoned children.

Wrong.
The govt and court should change the policy and work on reforming a culture that creates such fear based reaction. Bobchina the mother is not a criminal but a victim.

I see a more positive outcome for some (a very small percentage) of these abandoned girls are adopted and ideally have a chance at a better life. In the case of the several I have met/know and their families, this seems to be the case with stability, love and opportunities they may never have had otherwise.

Perhaps if china was to embrace western culture and start producing reality TV shows about 14 yr old girls who get knocked up and then choose to have their baby girl anyway the world would be a much better place!

Oh wait... probably not...

Joking aside, it's easy to blame the govt and the "one child policy" but in reality it is the push for boys and the outdated dowry system that causes most of the problems. It's people's opinions that need to change. I have no real issue with the "one child policy" to be honest (as much as people may hate me for saying that). There are far too many people in this country and it is literally unsustainable. They had to do something, they saw what would happen if every family continued to have 4-5 children, was it the right thing? possibly not, but at that time and in the state that the country was in, what other options did they have? "Change people's opinions!" yeah, that'll work, just like it has with spitting etc.

^ I think I'm less forgiving of ham-handed, inept social engineering than you are.

tihZ_hO wrote:That was then, and now China is prosperous, however there are still many millions of Chinese people living on sustenance level with few or no resources to spare. Now that China has the one child policy, two for minorities, this issue is exasperated (see below). Please tell me why there are thousands upon thousands of girls working as prostitutes in China and overseas? For example, one famous Chinese city, Dongguan, over 50,000 girls are working as prostitutes. In other countries there are thousands, and thousands of Chinese girls also working as prostitutes (trust me I know). So chances are, the mother was a prostitute and why she didn't get an abortion, who knows?

It's true that many millions Chinese people living on sustenance. Actually it is worth proud to make this happened in 1,300 mil people within 30 years. I believe no other country (with a huge population) can make this happened by now. I am confident my country can do this better and better in future.
Most of Chinese girl working as prostitutes are not for having few or no resource. Believe me many job oppotunities are waiting for them, but they don't want to take it because these jobs are tired and heavy in factory (like Foxconn) and with lower average salary. They wish easy jobs which can make them rich as soon as possible and don't need much paying out. But their education level is low and most of them come from the village. it is obviously impossible to find this kind of job in city. Prostitute is one of the choose for the good-looking and hot girls. You know a half of girls in Shanghai working as prostitutes makes their income is over the salary my family make monthly(I work as so-called White Neck in an international foreign company), but they don't need use their brains or physical strength (or just a little). The plan of most of them is to save a lot of money using their body and youth and then to find a husband to marry in another place (better the husband is rich). So...

QNMD wrote:

tihZ_hO wrote:That was then, and now China is prosperous, however there are still many millions of Chinese people living on sustenance level with few or no resources to spare. Now that China has the one child policy, two for minorities, this issue is exasperated (see below). Please tell me why there are thousands upon thousands of girls working as prostitutes in China and overseas? For example, one famous Chinese city, Dongguan, over 50,000 girls are working as prostitutes. In other countries there are thousands, and thousands of Chinese girls also working as prostitutes (trust me I know). So chances are, the mother was a prostitute and why she didn't get an abortion, who knows?

It's true that many millions Chinese people living on sustenance. Actually it is worth proud to make this happened in 1,300 mil people within 30 years. I believe no other country (with a huge population) can make this happened by now. I am confident my country can do this better and better in future.
Most of Chinese girl working as prostitutes are not for having few or no resource. Believe me many job oppotunities are waiting for them, but they don't want to take it because these jobs are tired and heavy in factory (like Foxconn) and with lower average salary. They wish easy jobs which can make them rich as soon as possible and don't need much paying out. But their education level is low and most of them come from the village. it is obviously impossible to find this kind of job in city. Prostitute is one of the choose for the good-looking and hot girls. You know a half of girls in Shanghai working as prostitutes makes their income is over the salary my family make monthly(I work as so-called White Neck in an international foreign company), but they don't need use their brains or physical strength (or just a little). The plan of most of them is to save a lot of money using their body and youth and then to find a husband to marry in another place (better the husband is rich). So...

You didn't mention that China's rapid development was born on the back of foreign investment and knowledge and technology. Prior to the first foreigners who invested in China, Taiwanese and Hong Kongnese followed then by others, Chinese industry and technology was far behind the rest of the world. Mao's path for China was killing China and Chinese literally too. It should be Deng Xiaoping's image on the RMB as he is the one who was able to push China to develop, not Mao who suppressed it. I am not saying Mao didn't do any good things, he did, but his failures and ideology crippled China. My Chinese ex-brother in law has given lectures on that very topic at Chinese universities, that Mao sent China back 100 years.

In all the talk of the Chinese economic miracle, a few key issues have been lost.

First, there are tens of millions of brilliant people in China. It is not a country without intellect, and if you know smart people, you'll know that those above a certain IQ level don't get sucked in by the system. They think for themselves. And if they're interested, they end up in positions of power. Many of China's top people in government and business are these kinds of people. In a country of 1.3 billion, there are bound to be 25 million who are in the top 2%, classified as "genius" IQs. And believe me, most of these people are not stupid, backwards or foolish. 25 million geniuses is enough to accomplish a tremendous amount of change.

Second, by the time China opened to business, the industrial and technical know-how of the developed world was higher than it had ever been in history, and there was much more knowledge available in print and in universities, that China could get very quickly. In fact, they did get it. It is little known in China, but China hired top consultants and bankers from the west to advise them on how to set up their banks, raise capital to fuel China's growth, organize their industries, etc. Without these top advisors, China would never be where it is today. The Chinese were smart enough to seek out experts, and to listen to them. But they stand on the shoulders of all those who came before them - the people who developed this business know-how over generations in the west. Those who claim this as a great victory for China without mentioning the role of the west are ignoring the essential contribution by the west, without which China would probably be behind India today.

Those who doubt this owe it to themselves to read uncensored recent economic history. Without consultants from the west, China would still have middle-sized steel mills in almost every province, little money to invest in infrastructure, and few if any of its industries would have the economies of scale that have fuelled China's rise as a manufacturing power. This was achieved by a combination of western know how, Chinese ability and willingness to learn from the west, and the Chinese political system that oppressed (and still oppresses) hundreds of millions of Chinese "wage-slaves". The rich in China have gotten rich on their backs, and China's leaders enjoy privilege and wealth seldom seen even in the west on the backs of these workers.

These are the key elements of China's economic miracle. But what happens from here is anyone's guess. The wage-slaves are growing restless, and China has over-invested in infrastructure at their expense. Meanwhile, China's leaders enjoy privilege and wealth virtually unmatched in the world except perhaps by the Saudi royal family and inner circle. These guys are really pigs at the trough, like the worst of Wall Street, and much worse than Washington, if you can imagine that.

I haven't even mentioned the theft of intellectual property from western companies, but that's a big feature, too.

rickettyrabbit wrote:In all the talk of the Chinese economic miracle, a few key issues have been lost.

First, there are tens of millions of brilliant people in China. It is not a country without intellect, and if you know smart people, you'll know that those above a certain IQ level don't get sucked in by the system. They think for themselves. And if they're interested, they end up in positions of power. Many of China's top people in government and business are these kinds of people. In a country of 1.3 billion, there are bound to be 25 million who are in the top 2%, classified as "genius" IQs. And believe me, most of these people are not stupid, backwards or foolish. 25 million geniuses is enough to accomplish a tremendous amount of change.

Second, by the time China opened to business, the industrial and technical know-how of the developed world was higher than it had ever been in history, and there was much more knowledge available in print and in universities, that China could get very quickly. In fact, they did get it. It is little known in China, but China hired top consultants and bankers from the west to advise them on how to set up their banks, raise capital to fuel China's growth, organize their industries, etc. Without these top advisors, China would never be where it is today. The Chinese were smart enough to seek out experts, and to listen to them. But they stand on the shoulders of all those who came before them - the people who developed this business know-how over generations in the west. Those who claim this as a great victory for China without mentioning the role of the west are ignoring the essential contribution by the west, without which China would probably be behind India today.

Those who doubt this owe it to themselves to read uncensored recent economic history. Without consultants from the west, China would still have middle-sized steel mills in almost every province, little money to invest in infrastructure, and few if any of its industries would have the economies of scale that have fuelled China's rise as a manufacturing power. This was achieved by a combination of western know how, Chinese ability and willingness to learn from the west, and the Chinese political system that oppressed (and still oppresses) hundreds of millions of Chinese "wage-slaves". The rich in China have gotten rich on their backs, and China's leaders enjoy privilege and wealth seldom seen even in the west on the backs of these workers.

These are the key elements of China's economic miracle. But what happens from here is anyone's guess. The wage-slaves are growing restless, and China has over-invested in infrastructure at their expense. Meanwhile, China's leaders enjoy privilege and wealth virtually unmatched in the world except perhaps by the Saudi royal family and inner circle. These guys are really pigs at the trough, like the worst of Wall Street, and much worse than Washington, if you can imagine that.

I haven't even mentioned the theft of intellectual property from western companies, but that's a big feature, too.

DITTO!


God darnit, Mr. Wabbit, you use your tongue purttier than a twenty dollar whore.



Jokes aside, great post wabbit!

There are plenty of families having more than one child.

Maybe one of the reasons foreigners are attractive to Chinese women is that to marry one means they will not be subjected to One Child policy, their biological drive to reproduce can be fulfilled. One such family I know has four children while others have at least two.

Chinese nationals who have the means to leave, obtain citizenship in another country, reproduce to their own desire. I've met one such families where the parents are Chinese nationals yet their several children have foreign passports.

Is it culturally ingrained that, in China, children traditionally were considered part of the wealth of the family and without them retirement/the future of the family elders was less assured.

When I wrote "change the policy" (above) I did not mean take it away or abolish the policy or I'd have written that. But the architects of that policy probably only looked at the implications, in one dimensional terms, at the out of hand population rate, rather than matched that against the strong cultural orientation to male children, all the other possible outcomes and implications of the "policy".

It is worth noting that jìhuà shēngyù zhèngcè; or "policy of birth planning" is a three-child limitation applying to approximately 35.9% of China's population.While one child policy is enforced at the rural level, traditionally, in many countries not just China, having children creates more hands to work family land for subsistence and or the family primary industry business.

Without abolishing One Child Policy the governemnt could:
enhance by incentivizing (economically to the family) the birth of girls.

legislate against the dowry system and enforce this legislation.

offer alternative social support, in retirement, for families with no children.

etc....

I'm from a socialist democratic nation where the elected (by all of the people because even that is enforced) Govt will legislate to change deeply embedded social conduct. Not against child birth but economically there is less incentive to have lots of children and there is support for the ill and elderly.
We have declining birthrate.

In another socially embedded area, drinking alcohol, traditionally (very) high consumption per capita, and then the consequent road fatalities or injury from drink/driving pushed (through advocacy/economics) the changes to drink driving laws, the enforcement of these laws and subsequent alteration of the drinking habits. The changes meant decline in drink/driving meant that more people stayed home to drink or uses public transport or had a designated driver.

Other legislation that impacted social change, seat belt wearing in cars, helmet wearing on bikes, nonsmoking laws. Would people have responded to these laws and changes deeply ingrained social/personal habits? No the changes had to be enforced.

tihZ_hO wrote:You didn't mention that China's rapid development was born on the back of foreign investment and knowledge and technology. Prior to the first foreigners who invested in China, Taiwanese and Hong Kongnese followed then by others, Chinese industry and technology was far behind the rest of the world. Mao's path for China was killing China and Chinese literally too. It should be Deng Xiaoping's image on the RMB as he is the one who was able to push China to develop, not Mao who suppressed it. I am not saying Mao didn't do any good things, he did, but his failures and ideology crippled China. My Chinese ex-brother in law has given lectures on that very topic at Chinese universities, that Mao sent China back 100 years.

Every country development can't leave foreign investment in this Earth Village time. we all know international capital is profit driven. Obviously China will reply on foreign investment like other countries is doing (America is one attracting most foreign capitals)

Now let's turn to Mao topic. Actually I disagree to your some points. I want to Separate Mao's impact to Foreign affair and domestic affair to talk briefly.

Foreign policy, I will not talk much about it cos it's under the complicated background of Cold War. Most of big decisions of Mao were intelligent to China, e.g. established diplomatic relationship with America to antagonize Soviet Russia in1979. E.g. push China to be one of Five Permanent Members of UN (excellent diplomacy job). These two historic events guaranteed China to play as a significant political power in the world even when the economy power was very weak.

Domestic affairs: I want to talk two points about Mao's ineffaceable contributions cos these forward-looking strategic decisions drive China to be powerful Eco power of the world now.
1. Build the base of completed industry system, especially Mao made the decision to develop heavy industry as a priority. General to say, it would be easier to develop light industry firstly cos light industry can rapidly enhance people living level than heavy industry. And heavy industry develop period is long and the investment is more. But heavy industry is the true sign of country industry power and once succeeded, it can drive light industry to develop very rapidly. Mao made his decision on national Eco strategy that as a priority to develop heavy industry. If we did not develop heavy industry from the beginning, it is possible to become another India (not despise India), lacking completed industry system and lacking own core technology on heavy industry which make the weapon mainly relying on importing and blocked the progress of spaceflight industry.
2. Nuclear weapon. Sorry I talked about the unwelcome topic. Actually it's not China initiate to develop nuclear weapon, but it's a decision under stress from Soviet and America. I believe China is the Country who was nuclear threatened most frequently in this world. In Korea war, China had been threatened several times by America. And also was threatened by Soviet Russia in boundary conflict. These outer stresses pushed China finally decide to develop Nuclear weapon to avoid more and more nuclear threats in the foreign affairs.

I agree ur point that Mao made a big mistake on cultural revolution which had deviated from his original intention.

And I'd like to raise a discussing topic: if Mao decided to open China's market and welcome foreign investment to China like Deng did, would it succeed on that time?

rickettyrabbit wrote:In all the talk of the Chinese economic miracle, a few key issues have been lost.

First, there are tens of millions of brilliant people in China. It is not a country without intellect, and if you know smart people, you'll know that those above a certain IQ level don't get sucked in by the system. They think for themselves. And if they're interested, they end up in positions of power. Many of China's top people in government and business are these kinds of people. In a country of 1.3 billion, there are bound to be 25 million who are in the top 2%, classified as "genius" IQs. And believe me, most of these people are not stupid, backwards or foolish. 25 million geniuses is enough to accomplish a tremendous amount of change.

Second, by the time China opened to business, the industrial and technical know-how of the developed world was higher than it had ever been in history, and there was much more knowledge available in print and in universities, that China could get very quickly. In fact, they did get it. It is little known in China, but China hired top consultants and bankers from the west to advise them on how to set up their banks, raise capital to fuel China's growth, organize their industries, etc. Without these top advisors, China would never be where it is today. The Chinese were smart enough to seek out experts, and to listen to them. But they stand on the shoulders of all those who came before them - the people who developed this business know-how over generations in the west. Those who claim this as a great victory for China without mentioning the role of the west are ignoring the essential contribution by the west, without which China would probably be behind India today.

Those who doubt this owe it to themselves to read uncensored recent economic history. Without consultants from the west, China would still have middle-sized steel mills in almost every province, little money to invest in infrastructure, and few if any of its industries would have the economies of scale that have fuelled China's rise as a manufacturing power. This was achieved by a combination of western know how, Chinese ability and willingness to learn from the west, and the Chinese political system that oppressed (and still oppresses) hundreds of millions of Chinese "wage-slaves". The rich in China have gotten rich on their backs, and China's leaders enjoy privilege and wealth seldom seen even in the west on the backs of these workers.

These are the key elements of China's economic miracle. But what happens from here is anyone's guess. The wage-slaves are growing restless, and China has over-invested in infrastructure at their expense. Meanwhile, China's leaders enjoy privilege and wealth virtually unmatched in the world except perhaps by the Saudi royal family and inner circle. These guys are really pigs at the trough, like the worst of Wall Street, and much worse than Washington, if you can imagine that.

I haven't even mentioned the theft of intellectual property from western companies, but that's a big feature, too.

Fair point. Atually many problems reminded are the side-effet of current model of China Eco development. Gov will have to face and corret these problems in the developement progress. e.g. political reform. It seems lagged a little more and becoming a block of Eco development.

QNMD wrote:Most of big decisions of Mao were intelligent to China, e.g. established diplomatic relationship with America to antagonize Soviet Russia in1979.

Nothing short of miraculous considering Mao died in 1976 (aged 82).

tihZ_hO wrote:

QNMD wrote:Most of big decisions of Mao were intelligent to China, e.g. established diplomatic relationship with America to antagonize Soviet Russia in1979.

Nothing short of miraculous considering Mao died in 1976 (aged 82).

Sorry to make it confused. the right time should be:

In 1971, Mao invited America table tennis team to visit China, giving a friendly sign to America.
in 1972, Nixon visited China as per China leaders' invitation.
in 1976, Chairman Mao died.
In 1979, China and America established diplomatic relationship officially.

QNMD wrote:

tihZ_hO wrote:

QNMD wrote:Most of big decisions of Mao were intelligent to China, e.g. established diplomatic relationship with America to antagonize Soviet Russia in1979.

Nothing short of miraculous considering Mao died in 1976 (aged 82).

Sorry to make it confused. the right time should be:

In 1971, Mao invited America table tennis team to visit China, giving a friendly sign to America.
in 1972, Nixon visited China as per China leaders' invitation.
in 1976, Chairman Mao died.
In 1979, China and America established diplomatic relationship officially.

As I said

Nothing short of miraculous considering Mao died in 1976 (aged 82)

Where is the confusion??

QNMD wrote:Fair point. Atually many problems reminded are the side-effet of current model of China Eco development. Gov will have to face and corret these problems in the developement progress. e.g. political reform. It seems lagged a little more and becoming a block of Eco development.

I see a few major blocks, QNMD.

First, too much investment is being misdirected into face projects and infrastructure projects that are intended only to make some individuals rich and build China's "glory". This is a serious waste of money since most of it is financed by debt. That debt has to be paid somehow, and it's being paid now in two ways:

1. Savers are being robbed because the interest rate paid on deposits is far too low - below the rate of inflation.
2. Inflation is high because the banks are printing money to finance the infrastructure, and there is more and more money chasing a limited supply of goods.

Second, corruption is partly responsible for misdirected investment, but it is also siphoning money away from banks (bad loans) and SOEs.

Third, the balance of investment to domestic consumption is far from the ideal. Domestic consumption is very low partly because households' savings are being eroded by 1. above; and pay rates and social programs for ordinary Chinese are too low; and too much wealth is concentrated into too few hands.

Lastly, the reason for all the above: one small group has nearly ultimate power. They control the economy, the banks, the media, the courts, the army, the police, legislation and state-owned enterprise. And they are exceptionally greedy. There are 35 members of the inner circle who are wealthier than the wealthiest American senator. And the insiders and their families make up most of the billionaires in China.

Somebody posted recently that they agreed with Deng's "some will get rich before others". Frankly, that would happen anywhere with a completely fair and incorruptible system. Some are just plain better at making and amassing capital.

But that is not what has happened in China. In China, those who got rich first were mostly the insiders. Most of them took wealth in corrupt ways, and now they don't want to give it up. As Britain's Lord Acton once said, "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely".

I don't mean to suggest Chinese are any more greedy or corrupt than anyone else. For example, give Wall Street a little opening and see what they'll do. Toxic assets, NINJA mortgages, credit default swaps, ENRON, Global Crossing, etc, etc. The difference is the system. When power is not concentrated into few hands and there are rules, enforcement and transparency, fewer greedy bastards get away with it.

I don't hold much hope for China to change. That is not a knock against China - it is a knock against human nature. The powerful seldom give up their power willingly, as we are seeing in many other countries these days.

No doubt the one child policy has contributed to female infanticide and more commonly to the abortion of female fetuses. But i believe if you weigh up the good against the bad i think the one child policy has been good for china. As i see it there are two main benifits to the policy.

1) population control. This was a necessity. Large families have always been part of chinese culture. It is safe to say that the chinese population would be significantly larger if this policy was not in place and i dont see how this increased population could be sustained. I suspect that a lot more children would die of malnutrition than the number of girls that die now.

2) elevation of the status of women. The vast majority of girls are not abandoned. This means that for almost 50% of families they family legacy will be carried by a woman. This means that girls are suddenly a lot more important. Women get encoraged to get an education and go to university. Also due to the gender imballance girls have a lot more choice and can demand more of men before they marry. I think it is obvious in shanghai that women here have much heigher status than they had 50 years ago.

Christin90 wrote: But i believe if you weigh up the good against the bad i think the one child policy has been good for china.

Imagine all these spoiled brat little emperors of today as China's leaders of tomorrow.

Lets see how that works out for China

Spoiled kids have run america for years and it seems to be doing ok.

Ammend: just remembered the global financial crisis so maybe this isnt as good a point as i thought it was.